‘New’ Democrats asking what YOU think

The S.C. Democratic Leadership Council is conducting what it calls the “First Ever e-Poll on ’08 Presidential Race and SC Issues.” Well, I certainly hope it’s the first one. I’d hate to think anybody around here was thinking about that stuff any earlier.

If you want to be heard, hurry. Results are to be announced at the state Democratic Party convention Saturday. Here’s the survey.

I probably won’t check to see the results myself. A “poll” such as this is meaningless. It’s not actually a poll in any statistically valid sense, since it will measure the views of only those people to whom notice was sent, and who decided to take part. If an advocacy group of any stripe conducts a “poll” publicly, don’t pay attention to it. They keep the polls that really tell them what’s going on to themselves.

I still go ahead and answer surveys like this, because of what it tells me about those who drafted it, and (sometimes) how it helps clarify my own thoughts.

Let’s run through this one:

It starts with the friendly message that “This e-survey is for everyone — not just Democrats.” I would have taken it anyway, but it’s nice to be invited. That’s one of the nice things about the DLC — unlike the party stalwarts who tried (but thanks to the last-minute heroics of party chairman Joe Ervin) failed to shut us independents out of their presidential primary in 2004, the “Third Way” Democrats are inclusive.

You remember the DLC, America’s answer to Tony Blair’s New Labour. They were all the rage in the 1990s, producing such relative centrists as Bill Clinton and Al Gore. By 2004, however, both parties had become so radicalized that DLC stalwart Joe Lieberman got crushed.

Anyway, here are my answers to the "poll":

1. “When thinking about the United States today, do you think we are generally on the” right track or wrong track? 2. Ditto for South Carolina.

I said "wrong track" on both.

The nation is trying to fail in Iraq and Afghanistan, with the war’s advocates underfunding it and committing huge blunders, and opponents doing all they can to undermine the country’s will to keep going. The record federal spending combined with massive tax cuts is sheer insanity. The lack of a sensible energy policy to free us from unreliable sources of petroleum is unconscionable. Then, of course, there’s “reality TV.”

In South Carolina, there is no political leadership even trying to chart a sensible course to train our population to attract more investment so we can all be healthier, wealthier and wiser. No effective leadership at all, and none on the horizon.

3. “What is the most important issue facing the United States today?” It’s the war. But, as I explained in the comments box, I’m for it. My concern is to win. I wanted to make sure no one counted my checking “the Iraq war” as meaning “that awful mess.” One must be specific.

4. The “most important issue” in South Carolina? “Improving K-12 education system” was one of the six choices, but I wrote in, “The whole education system, K-grad school.”

5. The second most important S.C. issue? I wrote in “Economic development (broader than just jobs)” rather than check “Reducing poverty,” “Getting more and better jobs,” or “Improving the general quality of life.”

Of course, education and ecodevo are the same thing.

6. “If you were ‘king for a day’ in South Carolina and could do any one thing to improve our state, what would it be?” I answered, “Reform the tax code so that it adequately and fairly funds essential service.” It’s beginning to look like it might require the intervention of a monarch to do that, since the deliberative process is failing so miserably in that task.

7. “If the Democratic Presidential Primary were held today, who would you vote for?” I didn’t answer, since no one on the list would be a “first choice” for me.

8. “Who would be your second choice?” Joe Biden. The rest I either wouldn’t ever vote for, or don’t yet know enough about.

9. “When your children – or other young people today – grow up, do you think they will be better off than you are today?” Yes. Despite my answers on 1 and 2, I have to believe we can do better.

10. “In South Carolina today, what do you think is the biggest barrier to our future success — what is holding us back from achieving great things?” Unenlightened self-interest — the kind of libertarian selfishness that fails to see that not even one’s self interest is served when others in the community fail to thrive. (Ask me another day, I might answer differently.)

11. Somehow, I failed to write down my answer on that one.

12. "Based on the person, not the party." Duh. I have a lot of trouble respecting anyone who does anything else.

13. “Other than George W. Bush, who is your least favorite Republican?” Who said George W. Bush is my least favorite? (I’m not crazy about the guy, but sheesh. Talk about presumption. You’re not even going to let me decide that?)

14. Since “Memphis-style” wasn’t offered as an option, I couldn’t answer. If there had been a second choice, I would have said, “Vinegar based.”

15. I couldn’t answer. It depends on the issue. Just saying "moderate" is an oversimplification, although perhaps to some my "liberal" and "conservative" positions (using the terms as popularly defined today) average out to that. But these aren’t numbers; positions on issues can’t be averaged. Each position can be considered only for what it is, however "moderate" or "radical" it may be.

I’ll let you guess at my answers to the rest.

77 thoughts on “‘New’ Democrats asking what YOU think

  1. Mary Rosh

    “The nation is trying to fail in Iraq and Afghanistan, with the war’s advocates underfunding it and committing huge blunders, and opponents doing all they can to undermine the country’s will to keep going.”
    This is just one more sad example of the dishonesty and cowardice that has made Warthen a failure as a journalist and as a human being. To Warthen, opponents of the war can’t be patriotic Americans with the interests of the United States at heart. No, to him they are “doing all they can to undermine the country’s will to keep going.” Warthen doesn’t consider the possibility that his chickenhawk fantasies were wrong, and it was the fact that they were wrong and have been proven wrong that has lessened the enthusiasm of Americans.
    Warthen doesn’t argue by producing evidence in support of his viewpoint. No, Warthen argues by assuming that his viewpoint is correct and that those who oppose his viewpoint are unpatriotic. Of course, it is Warthen who is unpatriotic. Warthen has never done anything that has benefited America. He has not undertaken, and would not under any circumstances undertake, any of the sacrifices he urges upon others. Warthen does not care about the welfare of America, he does not care about the welfare of the Iraqi citizens, and he does not care about the lives of the American soldiers that have been lost. All Warthen cares about is devoting the resources of America (resources to which he has never made any contribution of any kind) to grand “experiments” of “spreading democracy.” Warthen believes, or pretends to believe, that if he says “democracy is good,” that ends the analysis. Of course, that doesn’t end the analysis; the analysis includes – well – analysis. Saying, well, if you do this, what happens, and then what happens, and then what happens. Okay, so if you do that, what happens, and then what, and then what?
    Warthen’s attempt to blame others for the failure of his fantasies is also shabby, even for him. The Bush administration did what he wanted, and they did it basically how he wanted it done. Warthen compares his fantasy outcome to the real outcome that has been achieved, and deprecates it. Well, a fantasy outcome is always going to be better than a real outcome. It’s dishonest, even for the extremely high standards for dishonesty that Warthen sets every day, to point to a real outcome and say, well, the outcome isn’t good enough, it should be like this, or it should be like that. Warthen never made any real suggestions or put forward any detailed ideas about how things could have been done better. And things really haven’t been done any differently than he wanted. It’s only the outcome that is different than the outcome that he envisioned.
    Warthen got what he wanted. The actions taken in Iraq are the exact same actions he wanted taken, in an attempt to achieve the exact same goals he wanted to achieve. He, therefore, is responsible for the outcome.
    Who is NOT responsible for the outcome are the opponents of the war, those who predicted that the war was a mistake and would produce a disastrous outcome.
    By predicting, correctly, the outcome of the war, the opponents of the war are not “undermining the will of the country.” They are acting as patriotic Americans. If Warthen were a patriotic American, instead of the chickenhawk he is, he would admit that the war’s detractors were right and he was wrong.
    Instead, as is his invariable custom, he seeks to blame everyone but himself for the disaster to which he contributed.

  2. Brad Warthen

    Hey, everybody congratulate Mary!
    I was about to write a post daring everybody to try to beat Lee to be the first to comment — he seems to make a fetish of trying to beat the pack, and is impressively successful at it — and Mary did it!
    Lee, you’ll just have to console yourself knowing that you can’t win them all.

  3. Brian Flynn

    Wow! Mary you really know how to put your foot in your mouth! Statements like, “Warthen does not care about the welfare of America” or my favorite “he does not care about the lives of the American soldiers” sounds like you’ve been hitting the bottle a little to early this afternoon. I thought this blog was based on facts and evidence for one’s opinions. Now I don’t always agree with Brad but that doesn’t mean he isn’t human or in your case have a heart. Mary I assume that you are above the age of 11 and are somewhat productive in society. If you are, I’m sure you have presented your thoughts in a more eloquent manner in the past then go on ranting with your diatribe. Now Mary, let me ask a few questions while we’re at it. What have you done for your country? Explain to the blog how you have devoted yourself to your country through your glorious service. Let’s leave the bitter and ignorant comments on the playground. Now Mary, this is where the big boys and girls debate their opinions in a courteous manner.
    2LT USAR MI Officer

  4. Dave

    Brian, you are like a breath of fresh air in a squalid, stagnant cave. The left just does not want to recognize that minute by minute, day by day, the Iraqi government, meaning the decent people, are slowly progressing toward the birth and development of a new free country. Even the latest words from Bin Laden are a sound of retreat, telling his terrorist minions to head for Sudan to regroup and now fight against UN peacekeepers there. AQ is on the run in Afghan., Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen along with Pakistan. If Sudan is all they have left, they now realize they are beaten and done. The good news from Iraq is on the verge of the point where even the America hating media will have to recognize it. Most of the soldiers and independent sorts coming back from Iraq are touting the success, not failure, of this whole venture. Sadly, that is the worst news for the Mary Roths, they wanted so much for us to fail. Ironically, I believe none on the left want any US soldiers to die or be harmed, but they hate George Bush so bad that they wanted us to surrender and leave Iraq in disgrace, Murtha in particular. These losers will be eating their crow soon.

  5. Herb

    Brian, you are a breath of fresh air, I agree with Dave. Please stick around here. We need more of your caliber, no matter what the political persuasion. “Mary” can deliver a very sane and sober post, as on the last topic (“Paying Off, after all this Time”), but when she gets to ranting, the best thing to do is just ignore it. You know what’s coming; it’s always the same.

  6. LWF

    I learned a long time ago that politicians mostly care about themselves. The best way to survive in this modern jungle is to believe in something, whatever it is, and steer the course. For me it is family, religion,having a reasonable source of income, and helping those who don’t. And let me add, tolerance for those who have different opinions.

  7. Mary Rosh

    Brian, in answer to your question, my contribution to the United States is that I live in a liberal state, and therefore, of course, pay more in federal taxes than I receive in federal services. My taxes, and those of others like me, go to finance the operations of the federal government and to support the citizens of conservative states.
    I have presented my thoughts in a more eloquent manner elsewhere, but I reviewed what I wrote above and I have to say, I’m pretty happy with it. It’s eloquent enough and well reasoned enough. It’s certainly more eloquent than your post.
    What I fail to see in your post is any response to the substance of my post.
    Can you point to any word Warthen has ever written that indicates that he cares about America, or about the lives of our soldiers? Can you point to writing of his that analyzes the costs, risks, and benefits of the Iraq war in any sort of detail? I have never seen anything out of him other than unsupported assertions that “we” must conduct some sort of “experiment in democracy”, combined with accusations that anyone who disagrees with his viewpoint is unpatriotic.
    Remeber, too, NOTHING that Warthen has predicted has come to pass. EVERY argument that the opponents of the war made has been proven correct. So in Warthen, you see presented the specatcle of someone who has been proven wrong in every respect, blaming his detractors for being right, and claiming that by being right, they are undermining our country’s will.
    That is not an argument that a patriotic American would make.
    Oh, I would also ask you, do you consider Dave’s argument uncivil? According to him, people who disagree with him want the U.S. effort in Iraq to fail, and are motivated not by concern for America, but by hatred of Bush.
    Any lectures to him on the virtues of civility?
    If not, I think we learn a little bit more about your integrity.

  8. Mary Rosh

    “Do you believe in fairies? Oh, say that you believe! If you believe, clap your hands!
    –J.M. Barrie

  9. Mary Rosh

    Herb, I notice that you have not a word about Dave’s accusations against opponents of the war. According to him, opponents of the war are motivated by hatred of Bush and a desire for the U.S. effort to fail. Yet not a word from you to him about the virtues of civility. To you, the duty to be civil falls only on people who disagree with you.
    I can say of you with even more assurance than I did before that you are nothing but a pompous hypocrite.

  10. Mary Rosh

    “Do you believe in fairies? Oh, say that you believe! If you believe, clap your hands!
    –J.M. Barrie

  11. Mark Whittington

    The DLC survey wasn’t that bad. Here is an argument that the Democrats need to promote on taxes:

    by Randolph T. Holhut
    “The 70 percent of Americans with taxable income under $50,000 a year have been paying more and more in taxes while the top 0.4 percent, those earning more than $500,000 per year, are paying less and less.
    It wasn’t always this way.”
    And here is the U.S. wealth distribution:

  12. Dave

    Mary, I stand, salute, and clap for the Commander-in-Chief and his armed forces who are leading us and the Iraqi people to a huge victory and a resounding defeat for terrorists all over the world. You, on the other hand, dishonor your own nation’s military with your constant whining about how bad it’s going. How do you like your crow, by the way, rare, medium, or well done?

  13. Brian Flynn

    Mary I wasn’t trying to argue against the points you made. I thought you made some interesting points about your view of the war. I was just questioning your thought process when you said Brad didn’t care about America or American Soldiers. Wouldn’t you say those were pretty harsh and unwarranted comments? I thought you really crossed the line when you said Brad didn’t even care about American Soldiers. Everybody loves America and everybody cares about American soldiers; that’s why we write on this blog. Isn’t that blatantly obvious to everyone? I enjoy reading comments posted on this blog everyday. I love to see people discuss their views in a civil manner; it truly is a beautiful thing. You can call me the Mr. Manners of the blog. I’m here as a 21 year old to make sure the really really old people that post on this blog are kind and polite to each other!!! I did have a good laugh though when you said your service to our country consisted of paying federal taxes. Don’t stretch yourself too thin with all of your service to your country! I love you MARY!

  14. Mary Rosh

    Brian, it isn’t the paying of taxes that I’m talking about, it’s paying MORE in taxes than one receives in federal services. People in liberal states, for the most part, pay significantly more in federal taxes than they receive in federal services. Californians, for example, receive 78 cents in services for every $1.00 they pay in taxes. People in New Jersey receive 57 cents in services for every $1.00 they pay in federal taxes (People from New Jersey experience the biggest shortfall between what they receive and what they pay out of any state).
    On the other hand, the more conservative states receive substantially more in federal services and handouts than they pay in federal taxes. For example, people from Alabama receive about $1.57, and people from South Carolina receive $1.36. People from conservative states don’t really pay their own way, and they don’t shoulder their share of the load. They are essentially dependent on what may be called the charity of people in liberal states.
    So it isn’t the mere paying of taxes that I’m talking about, it’s the paying of MORE taxes than the value I receive in services, with the balance going to subsidize people who live in conservative states.
    My comments about Warthen may be harsh, but “unwarranted” does not invariably follow “harsh”. You charitably assume that everyone automatically cares about American soldiers. You are correct in most cases, but not in every case, and especially not when you are talking about members of the 101st Fighting Keyboardists.
    Point to something Warthen has said that indicates that he cares about American soldiers. I have found nothing of that nature; the only references I have found to our soldiers are admonitions to people who oppose Warthen’s chickenhawk fantasies to keep silent so that they don’t “demoralize” our soldiers. Essentially, Warthen uses the bodies of our soldiers as shields to protect his arguments from criticism.

  15. Mary Rosh

    “Do you believe in fairies? Oh, say that you believe! If you believe, clap your hands!”
    –J.M. Barrie

  16. Lee

    “Unenlightened self-interest” describes modern democratic socialism, where mob rule votes for themselves what they are too lazy to earn through work and frugality.
    One of the most common substitutes for civil debate these days is for those who are unable to put forth cogent arguments is to pervert the language by declaring that their opponents who use facts to be “unenlightened”. Those who expect to keep the money they earned are “greedy”, for not handing it over to the indolent. Those who want the risk and reward of controlling their own lives are smeared as “irresponsible”.

  17. Dave

    If Mary would spend more time reading and learning about economics instead of her obsession with Peter Pan, she would be able to understand how Bush has the US economy cranking on all cylinders, with record setting growth, low interest rates, increasing home ownership rates, and low taxes, all while the US Treasury is pulling in more money than ever before. Lower taxes stimulates growth and jobs. Mary, consider this your first Econ. 101 lesson, and this one is on the house. You will have to part with some of your greed money, and we all know how greedy you are in the way you constantly obsess over what someone is getting that you don’t get, for your next lesson.

  18. Ready to Hurl

    Hey, Brad, when’s The State going to report Bush’s subversion of our government?
    President cites powers of his office
    By Charlie Savage, Globe Staff | April 30, 2006
    WASHINGTON — President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.
    Among the laws Bush said he can ignore are military rules and regulations, affirmative-action provisions, requirements that Congress be told about immigration services problems, ”whistle-blower” protections for nuclear regulatory officials, and safeguards against political interference in federally funded research.
    Legal scholars say the scope and aggression of Bush’s assertions that he can bypass laws represent a concerted effort to expand his power at the expense of Congress, upsetting the balance between the branches of government. The Constitution is clear in assigning to Congress the power to write the laws and to the president a duty ”to take care that the laws be faithfully executed.” Bush, however, has repeatedly declared that he does not need to ”execute” a law he believes is unconstitutional…

  19. Ready to Hurl

    You’re going to have to clap harder because not everyone lives in never-never-land like you.

  20. Dave

    Here is a link to a really interesting article that identifies the divide in our society between “opportunity seekers” and “problem solvers”. Both major parties have people in each category. I think this really nails it in regard to why most democrats in particular cannot get traction with the people who are optimistic and have some real hope for the future.
    Scroll to: The Problem with Problem Solvers!

    An excerpt here:
    Postrel’s dynamists, or, as I call them, “opportunity seekers,” love charging into the unknown future. They trust that things will work out if people are free to work and create, using capital that is free to seek a return. Opportunity seekers, in fact, are bored by static problem solving. This does not mean they are shirkers. It’s just that they’d rather invent word processors than fix typewriters.
    Problem solvers, on the other hand, see failure everywhere. They will grind away at a problem, even subsidizing past efforts that have never worked well and probably never will. Problem solvers tend to resist forward motion until all present-day problems are gone. Problem solvers get irritated–a stern bunch they are–when they see others frivolously seeking opportunity. Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton were opportunity seekers by nature. Al Gore and Hillary Clinton are problem solvers. George W. Bush is an opportunity seeker who has surrounded himself with problem solvers.
    Starting with Ronald Reagan’s election in 1980, Republicans have presented themselves as opportunity seekers.

  21. Dave

    RTH – I live in the real world and it’s great. You should join it. Especially if you are an investor and like to make money, or cherish being a citizen of the world’s real superpower. Since civilization has been documented, only a handful of countries could ever lay claim to that distintion. Roman Empire, the UK, and not many more. Life is great, enjoy it. Become an opportunity seeker.

  22. kc

    . . . Especially if you are an investor and like to make money, or cherish being a citizen of the world’s real superpower. Since civilization has been documented, only a handful of countries could ever lay claim to that distintion. Roman Empire, the UK, and not many more
    OK, now I am certain that “Dave” is a satire.

  23. bud

    I just saw United Flight 93 and it shook me up like no other movie. It reminded me of just what a collosal failure our president is. What is really astonishing is how we were fooled into believing that invading Iraq was the same thing as defending the nation against terrorists. NO, NO, NO. The two are not the same. Bin Laden still runs free. Let’s divert our resources to fighting the real terrorists, not the make believe terrorists in Iraq.
    Brad, Mary was a little over the top with her comments, but I agree with one point she made. That is, those of us who want to pull out of Iraq are just as patriotic and love our country just as much as those who want to stay. The implication (even though you didn’t say it directley) is clear and I take exception to it. We just believe this war is a huge mistake and runs counter to true American values and hurts our security, not helps it.
    Having said that, I don’t think Iraq is the number 1 problem facing this nation. That would be energy. Not the price of gasoline, but the much bigger of problem of running out of oil before we’ve developed alternetives. Once we reach “Peak” oil production, the problems we think are so big today will pale in comparison.

  24. Lee

    If you leftists aren’t going to fight terrorism in Iraq, or at home, what is your plan? Leave it for the next generation, just like the messes of welfare, Social Security, Medicare, education, that you have already given up on?

  25. bud

    As usual Lee, you missed my point. We are NOT fighting terrorism in Iraq. Let me repeat that, we are NOT fighting terrorism in Iraq. We are in the middle of a civil war, largely of our own making. We took our eye off the ball and the terrorists are regrouping. And just so I don’t leave any misunderstanding on this, the US is NOT fighting terrorism in Iraq, period.
    My plan is simple, let’s actually fight the terrorists. Good intelligence, covert operations (which the president has undermined) and effective military action in places like Afghanistan. That’s how to fight the terrorists. Not by going after some tin-horned dictactor that had nothing to do with terrorist acts against the US.
    By the way, Social Security is working well. Leave it alone.

  26. Ready to Hurl

    Bud, you’ll soon realize that Lee and Dave truly live in never-never-land.
    Only by denying reality can they continue to worship Dear Leader and believe that Everything Is Fine.
    You just have to clap your hands harder as Mary has pointed out.
    Lee has successfully ignored the fact that 9/11 happenened on Bush’s watch; the Bushies weren’t at all interested in terrorism until 9/11; and, that Bush/Cheney has lied/deceived the American people repeatedly about Iraq’s non-existent operational role in the terrorist threat to the U.S.
    To be fair to Lee, though, all the wingnut propaganda sources that he consumes and parrots furiously attempt to keep reality at bay.
    And, then we have our host, the useful idiot of the rightwing. His version of the Pottery Barn policy? If you break one item then you’re absolutely obligated to break every piece in the store. Of course, the people who want no more damage just have an irrational hatred of Bush and the country.

  27. Dave

    Even though Al Qaeda planned the 9-11 attacks for 5 years, and Bush was in office for only 8 months of that time, Bud places the entire mess on Bush. Meanwhile, Bush has prevented AQ from further attacks for the past 5 years. Note to Bud, those bad guys walking around with AQ badges in Iraq are Al Qaeda. They must have wandered off of the Bin Laden plantation in Afghanistan. Probably just a coincidence.

  28. bud

    I’ll clapping as hard as I can but Dave and Lee are not responding.
    Oh well, I tried.

  29. Lee

    For liberals and moderates, all that counts is being able to claim that they tried. Results don’t matter.

  30. Mary Rosh

    Bud, the purpose of the clapping isn’t get the Bizarro World twins to respond; it’s to get REALITY to respond.
    Tinkerbell got better because children all over the world believed in fairies and showed their belief by clapping their hands.
    That is why YOU are responsible for the disaster in Iraq. Everything would be great if only you believed hard enough.
    I don’t agree with you that my response to Warthen was over the top. I don’t believe that someone who argues the way Warthen argues, namely, by assuming, without evidence, that his position is the correct one, and impugning the motives of anyone who disagrees with him, is entitled to any sort of presumption that he is acting in good faith or has good motives.
    And I have to tell you that this last post of Warthen is really a piece of work. Here’s what he’s saying:
    1. He doesn’t believe that the U.S. is succeeding in Iraq.
    2. Opponents of the war don’t believe that the U.S. is succeeding in Iraq.
    3. The will of the American people is being undermined by the lack of belief of the OPPONENTS OF THE WAR. And ONLY the lack of belief of the opponents of the war. Warthen’s own lack of belief is NOT undermining the will of the American people.
    To Warthen, a key issue is lack of belief, but ONLY the lack of belief of people who disagree with him is blameworthy. His own lack of belief is based on a hope for better things for America, or a carefully considered response to conditions and events, or something. Warthen’s lack of belief is “loyal” and the lack of belief of war opponents is “undermining”.

  31. bud

    Happy “Mission Accomplished” Day! Isn’t it great to celebrate 3 years of a free Iraq? And look what else has happened. Following the successful conclusion of the war to rid the world of Saddam we have witnessed a grand march of freedom throughout the world. There have been no terrorist attacks worldwide since the president’s celebritory speech on the Abraham Lincoln. Oil prices are $18 a barrel and falling. That has led to gasoline prices hovering near the $1/gallon mark. The Jeruselum peace accord signed in January, 2004 has ushered in an unpresidented era of cooperation between Isreal and the Palestinians with both nations (Isreal and the newly created Palestinian Free Republic) cooperating in a venture to create a new cancer vaccine. Early results are positive. Iran and Korea have both pledged never to seek nuclear capability. Early intelligence reports indicate both former members of the axis of evil are indeed dismantling their nuclear facilities.
    The poverty rate in the US has fallen to the lowest level in history and nearly 100% of all Americans now have health insurance coverage.
    Also, thanks to improved mining regulations there has not been a fatal mining accident in the US in 3 years.
    Indian tribes are celebrating a new era of prosperity thanks to the Native American Empowerment act of 2005, the result of honest and open debate fostered by lobbyist Jack Abramoff.
    And finally, President Bush has signed the Kyoto Environmental accords but stressed it does not go far enough in reducing world wide emissions of greenhouse gases. The president has pledged the US will cut it’s own emissions by 90% regardless of what other nations do, citing evidence that the nations economy will not be greatly affected by this effort.
    Liberals can fantasize as well as conservatives.

  32. Ready to Hurl

    When exactly was the Cheney Commission on Terrorism scheduled to meet in 2001?
    Is your point that the Bush Administration bears no blame for allowing the 9/11 attack because they were busy, uhm, transitioning for the initial 13% of their first term?
    Oh, yeah, here’s a hint to my first question: 2,595 Americans died on American soil on the day that Cheney was to start considering terrorism as a threat.
    Of course, Condi Rice, the national security adviser, set the tone by demoting the official most familiar with the threat shortly after taking power.
    Great start.

  33. Lee

    The “official poverty level” in America is wealthier than 90 of the people in the world.

  34. Lee

    The “official poverty level” in America is wealthier than 90% of the people in the world.

  35. Dave

    For all of the Monday Morning liberal quarterbacks, are you aware that 600 American soldiers were killed on the first day of the Normandy invasion by American bomber pilots? Let’s see, maybe we can exhume FDR and Gen. Omar Bradley and try them on war crimes against their own soldiers. I can see it now, Omar must resign, Ike can take a hike, etc.
    What keeps me happy is that those who want the US to fail are not and will not be leading this nation or the military for a long long time. Now you all can have yourself a prolonged Howard Dean scream. Eaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

  36. Dave

    RTH – Cleaning the oval office and fumigating the White House did take up a lot of precious time for the new administration back in 2001. They finally resorted to a shock and awe campaign in the oval office, while using Spic and Span, the big job cleaner, to remove all the yucky semen stains. Funny, but if just one stain had not landed on one blue dress, Algore would have been elected. Life is interesting you must admit.

  37. bud

    Al Gore actually did win the 2001 election, by 500,000 votes. The founding fathers were brilliant in many ways, but the electoral college was a big blunder. And now we’re paying for it.
    Mary. I think I have it now. Clap and we have a new reality. Now that I understand I’ll try really hard. By working together we can make a difference. Clap, CLAP, CLAAAP!!

  38. Mary Rosh

    Not only did Gore win the popular vote, he won the vote in Florida. Unfortunately, a corrupt Florida secretary of state and a corrupt U.S. Supreme Court stopped the counting of votes. At the time, Warthen argued that manual counting of votes wasn’t necessary, because if black people couldn’t mark their ballot in such a way as to be properly read by a machine, that meant they were too stupid to vote.
    Now, there were a lot of majority black precincts and a lot of majority white precincts majority white precincts. In most of the majority black precincts, the voter marked the ballot and then turned it in. It was then fed through the machine later. If the ballot was rejected for whatever reason, well, that was just too bad.
    In most of the majority white precincts, by contrast, the ballot was fed through the machine while the voter was still there. If the machine couldn’t read the ballot, it was rejected and the ballot was given back to the voter for correction.
    To Warthen, Dave, and their sheet-wearing friends, the fact that black people’s votes were not counted proves that black people are too stupid to be allowed to vote, and the fact that white people’s votes were counted proves that white people are smart enough to be allowed to vote. Those of us who subsist on something other than racism and handouts take the view that the difference doesn’t lie in the voters, it lies in how the ballots were handled.
    Similarly, tens of thousands of qualified voters were struck off the rolls before the 2000 election, under a scheme deliberately designed to disenfranchise as many black voters as possible. To Warthen, Dave, and their sheet-wearing friends, the fact that so many black people were struck off the rolls proves that black people shouldn’t vote. To those of us who subsist on something other than racism and handouts, the improper disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of black voters was a bad thing, not a good thing.
    If Al Gore had been allowed to take the office to which he was elected, 3000 people who perished on September 11 would still be alive today. Unlike Bush, who went fishing the day after receiving an urgent warning of a terrorist threat, and who sat, frozen with fear, when informed that America was actually under attack, Al Gore is the sort of man who would have taken steps to stop the threat.
    But neither Dave nor Warthen cares about that. They don’t care about the lives lost in the Iraq war, and they don’t care about the lives lost on September 11. They would rather have 3000 people people killed with Bush as president, than have the lives of those same 3000 people saved with Gore as president.
    The fact that Bush was elected through the illegal disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of black people makes their triumph all the sweeter.

  39. bud

    Dave. You and Lee amaze me with your complete inability to grasp the obvious. You stumbled on the truth but refuse to see it. I’m simply in awe at how you and Lee can make our case so easy. By bringing up the fact that casualties in WW II were high and the public supported it so completely shows just how different these two wars are. By continuing to bring up WW II you simply show how shallow conservative thinking is. All wars are not alike. World War II was a war of necessity and demanded sacrifice from everyone. And American citizens accepted that. Iraq is a war of, well, I’m not sure. Certainly, NOT a war against terrorism. Keep on with the WW II analogy it makes it easy for Hurl, Mary and me.

  40. Ready to Hurl

    Mary, the latest irony of Florida voting is that murderous wingnut mouthpiece (and Brownshirt pinup girl) Ann Coulter couldn’t figure out where to vote in the last Palm Beach election.
    It seems that Coulter was attempting to commit voter fraud by claiming her realtor’s home as a permanent address. Unfortunately, she couldn’t figure out the correct polling place and fled before she could be apprehended.
    Naturally, she’d been among the snotty conservative voices who claimed that old people, poor people, Black people and former felons shouldn’t complain because their votes weren’t counted.
    BTW, Lee and Dave, the next time you see Coulter on television ask yourself how many women have an adam’s apple. Hint: none that were born female.
    Gosh, I love spoiling the wet dreams of reactionary right wingers.

  41. Ready to Hurl

    Lee, multinational corporations (and pols like Dear Leader) on their payrolls agree with you that the U.S. government poverty level is too rich compared with workers in the rest of the world.
    We’re in a race to the bottom but you Dave are too blind to see it.

  42. Dave

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the SC Dem party leaders take a look at this thread of comments, realize that their supporters are Mary, RTH, and Bud, and promptly switch to the Republican party. Actually, quite a few have in SC. The mainstream Dems in SC would be ashamed to be seen or heard with the three of you, so what party do you represent? The Anarchists maybe. Mary is a comical nutcase. I can picture Mary strolling around a nursing home (with her care paid for as a ward of the state like the leech parasite we know she is) mumbling on and on about how Algore really won. What a hoot that would be, or will be. Interspersed with I Hate Bush and Brad Warthen statements. Mary, take your meds, put down your Peter Pan puppet, and go sit in the dunce corner.

    RTH – You think we are in a “race to the bottom”. That is so you, so angry democrat, so anti-American, but it fits you perfectly. Conservatives are trying (and succeeding) in a race to the top, while liberals are hung up on a race to the bottom. Bottom feeders for sure.

    Bud – You are catching on now. Iraq is NOT WW2, not Korea, not Vietnam, it is Iraq. What is it with liberals and this thinking of “this is Nam all over again”, the quagmire, etc. I think the War on Poverty is the war in a quagmire if you want to cite a quagmire.

    So, to the three of you, I could be wrong but you may need to form your own party. I can guess that the NEW DEMOCRAT party would not welcome the three of you. Here is a party acronym for you that fits. The S-ocialist, H-opeless, I-gnorant, T-urncoat Party. That works. haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

  43. bill

    Congratulations,Dave.Your depravity has reached new depths.I’ll have to include this site along with the others that underage relatives are not allowed to visit.You are a truly vile creature.

  44. bud

    In every war there comes that moment when you know victory has been achieved. In this particular debate, that moment came with Dave’s last post. Not one fact refuted. Not one bit of information shared. Simply a tirade against the victors. I am going to savor the moment.

  45. Lee

    The New York Times, Washington Post, and other newspapers recounted the votes in Florida, and found that Bush won the popular vote.
    The Gore campaign had lawsuits already drawn up in several states, with the allegations already written in advance of the election. That was the real fraud.

  46. Ready to Hurl

    Dave, how is protecting good paying American jobs anti-American?
    When will you wake up to the fact that “free trade,” as it’s currently espoused, is really just the search for the cheapest labor and laxest environmental regulations on the planet?
    Even if this trend is just some kind of “creative destruction” of current American jobs with some unknown technological revolution to provide new employment opportunities, the middle class will need protection while the revolution takes place.
    Otherwise, we can kiss our middle class goodbye and say hello to a bannana republic of extremes in poverty and weatlth.
    And, hey, what a coincidence! Dear Leader’s 750 statements subverting the constitution and rule of law is the perfect seque to political Bannana Replicanism.

  47. Brad Warthen

    Lee is actually right this time — mostly.

    The independent recounts done by various news organizations after all the shouting was over determined that by most methods of counting the ballots — including the one that Al Gore insisted in court must be used — George W. Bush won. There was one set of rules you could have used for counting them whereby Mr. Gore would have won — but that’s not the way he had wanted to do it.

    So if he had won his court fight, he still would have lost the election.

    This is true, in spite of the fact that it "appeared" that more voters had intended to vote for Mr. Gore. At least, that was the report of USAToday.

  48. Lee

    Brad, try to be gracious enough to just report the facts, without the editorial personal attacks.
    If you care to revisit some other topics, you will find my facts, and my opinions based upon those facts, to be just as correct, even if the Washington Post doesn’t tell you to accept it.

  49. Mary Rosh

    If you’re lazy and dishonest like Warthen, you only look at the stories by newspapers you have carefully selected to uphold your viewpoint. If you’re more industrious, you look at the underlying data and the facts as they were at the time.
    Before the counting of votes was stopped by a corrupt U.S. Supreme Court, the Florida Supreme Court had ordered the recounting of “undervotes” on the standard that a ballot was to be counted if it reflected the “clear intent of the voter,” which was the standard under Florida law. Before the count was stopped, judge Terry Jones had a hearing scheduled on whether or not to count so-called “overvotes.” What do you think his ruling would have been? Do you think that any honest judge would have said (here are tens of thousands of votes that reflect the clear intent of the voter, but I’m not going to count them”?
    No, the standard under Florida law was to count ballots that reflected the clear intent of the voter. Jones would have made a ruling that preserved the right of Florida voters to vote.
    In anything Warthen says about the Florida 2000 election, you have to remember two things:
    1. Warthen hates Gore. Both Warthen and Gore attended journalism school, yet Gore has made an outstanding success of his life, and made huge contributions to America and humanity. Warthen’s life has been a failure. Warthen doesn’t understand that his failure is caused by his laziness, stupdity, and dishonesty; instead, he blames his failure on the success of others, telling himself that they robbed him of the success that is his “due.”
    2. Warthen longs for the days before the 1965 Voting Rights Act. Like Trent Lott, he feels that if Strom Thurmond had won the presidency in 1948, we wouldn’t have “all these problems”. Warthen will endorse any mechanism, legal or not, that keeps black people from voting.
    Warthen had no objection to the counting of tens of thousands of illegally cast mail-in ballots, because, in his estimation, the majority of those ballots were likely to have been cast by white people.
    Warthen had no objection when a violent mob stopped the counting of legally votes of black people.
    Those two facts tell us everything we need to know about Warthen’s real views on the integrity of the voting process.

  50. bill

    Another excellent post,Mary.I would suggest that Brad(and everyone else)read some Mark Crispin Miller.BOTH elections were stolen.But then again,Brad isn’t going to believe anything he doesn’t want to believe.No one is going to knock that chip off his shoulder.We’ll just have to wait until it grows so large that it crushes him.

  51. Dave

    Bill, what profanity? Surely you jest or you have an imagination run wild!!!! But I have a good joke for you. Did you hear about the two gay Irishmen? Patrick Fitzgerald and Gerald Fitzpatrick.

  52. Dave

    Mary, Algore had a couple of hundred lawyers fighting mailed in ballots from our own military back in 2000. There aren’t too many things more disgraceful than that, agree? The stench of that one act will remain with the Democratic party for generations.

  53. Ready to Hurl

    Oh, Lee, here’s the latest from David Shuster of NBC News concerning Plame’s CIA work. But, I guess that you think she went through undercover training at “The Farm” so that she could sharpen pencils and brew coffee at Langley.

  54. Mary Rosh

    Dave, fighting to stop the counting of illegal votes is not disgraceful in any way. Members of the military don’t have any less right to vote than anybody else, but they don’t have any more right either.
    I notice you don’t object to the fact that Bush’s lawyers fought to have mail-in ballots from majority black counties excluded, but made no effort to obstruct the counting of ballots from majority white counties.
    You want to know what is more disgraceful than trying to stop illegal ballots from being counted? Organizing mob violence to stop the counting of the votes of black people. Of course, far from finding such action disgraceful, if you could have afforded a bus ticket, you would have put on your sheet and gone down there to attack the vote counters yourself.

  55. Lee

    The fact that I was able to find out who Valerie Plame was long before it was published by the New York Times (thanks to her husband, Joseph Wilson), tells me that she was not a covert agent, and her identity was already public.
    The AP just retraced my steps, using information available a the time, to identify Valerie Plame as a CIA employee, along with more than 1,000 other CIA employees and agents.

  56. Lee

    Mary calls Brad Warthen and myself for citing the findings of the New York Times, Washington Post, and other newspapers which endorsed Al Gore, that Al Gore did not win the popular vote in Florida.
    I hate to think what “Mary” considers to be a credible source of news. Pravda? The Onion? Some radical muslim tract?
    I’ll bet she doesn’t like Stars and Stripes, the US Army newspaper where Al Gore worked for a few months, in an illustrious journalism career which dwarfs Brad Warthen’s 30 years.

  57. Mary Rosh

    Lee, no wonder you have had to depend on handouts your entire life. Your shiftlessness and laziness caused you to ignore my analysis of the data underlying the “findings” of the various newspapers you refer to. I don’t care what the conclusions of the newspapers were if the conclusions conflict with the actual data from which the conclusions were drawn.
    The question isn’t, what did the newspapers conclude; the question is, what does the data show. And the data show that if the count ordered by the Florida Supreme Court had not been stopped by a corrupt United States Supreme Court, Gore would have been shown to be the winner by thousands of votes.
    Now, you, Warthen, and the rest of your sheet-wearing friends can deny the facts as much as you want, but the facts remain as they are.
    Of course, no one need listen to anything you or Warthen have to say about the subject. In evaluating anything you have to say, the only question that needs to be asked is this:
    Would you and Warthen evaluate the votes under the same criteria you do now if the situation were exactly reversed?
    And the answer, of course, is no. You, Warthen, and the rest of your sheet-wearing friends are motivated by only two considerations:
    1. The desire to claim that Bush was legitimately elected president.
    2. The desire to disenfranchise black people.

  58. Dave

    Mary, the devoted patriots who protested the contrived and purposefully unethical recount attempt down in Miami were true American heroes. They let the sun shine in on corruption and the solar rays cleansed the whole process. The whole nation owes them a tremendous debt of gratitude. This is the way the democratic proces should work and it did work. I hope we never see a loser try to litigate himself or herself into the White House ever again. Had Gore been called the winner by the USSC, Bush would have conceded with class. Everyone knows leftist Dems have no class and no shame, although I will say Kerry had enough class to stop the Ohio lawsuit nonsense in 04.

    No one wants to disenfranchise any black voters, and I include Brad in that. What a goofy assertion. As for me, I say people who are too dumb to vote, black, white, or green, are simply that, too dumb to vote.

  59. Mary Rosh

    Dave, the fact that you say that mob violence directed at disenfranchising black people is the way that “democracy should work and did work” tells us everything about you that we need to know.

  60. Ready to Hurl

    Hey, Dave, what you smell are the putrid Republican talking points that you’re mindlessly regurgitating.
    Here’s the rest of the story from Jeffrey Toobin’s Too Close to Call.
    […] virtually all of the overseas absentee ballots had been counted, but [Bill] Kristol had heard that the Democrats had circulated a memorandum t to their lawyers advising them how to exclude ballots cast by Florida voters who were overseas. […]
    It was not until Saturday afternoon that Gore, Klain, and the others even figured out what the Republicans were talking about. Earlier in the week, as they were preparing for the counting of the overseas ballots, both sides had arranged for lawyers to be present in all of the Florida counties. On Wednesday, a Tallahassee lawyer named Mark Herron sent a memo to all the Democratic observers of the count, explaining how the process should work. At several points in the memo, Herron said the ballot must be “postmarked” to be valid. This was incomplete legal advice, at best. The Florida administrative code said ballots could be accepted if they were “postmarked or signed and dated no later than the date of the election.” The Herron memo suggested that Gore lawyers should challenge all ballots that lacked postmarks. (No one in the Republican camp had leaked David Aufhauser’s legal instructions that suggested rejection of civilian ballots lacking postmarks and acceptance of military ballots with the same defect.)
    […]First either the rules mattered or they didn’t. At the same time that Bush operatives were fighting to prevent manual recounts to uncover validly cast votes, they were arguing that the rules should be stretched to allow overseas ballots to be counted. Second, the Herron memo dealt with all overseas ballots, not just those from members of the military—and the Bush campaign itself had tried to exclude civilian absentee ballots because they lacked postmarks. […]
    So once again Dave proves to be a half-assed spewer of stale half-truths, deceptions, and lies parroted by equally lazy and dimwitted Republican mouthpieces.
    He gets points for consistency, anyway.

  61. Ready to Hurl

    Dave, I’ll bet that NONE of the Repbulican thugs who rioted in Palm Beach have volunteered to serve in Iraq.
    “Sunshine patriots” is what John Kerry called such cowards during Vietnam, just as Tom Paine called their weak-kneed forebearers.
    Those “sunshine patriots” were mostly Republican congressional staffers flown down to Florida from D.C. at the expense of the Bush campaign to disrupt the election. They were housed in hotels at Bush’s expense and directed by campaign staff. They have since been handsomely rewarded by the Party for their thuggery.

  62. Ready to Hurl

    Dave, do you include in your “too dumb to vote category” Ann Coulter since she couldn’t manage it in the latest Florida election?
    BTW, many of the disenfranchised weren’t given the chance to cast their ballot in the first place. But, go ahead and live in your little bubble of imagined superiority. It goes so well with your white bred Republicanism.

  63. Dave

    Gore could have very simply come out and made a public statement that he wanted ALL military ballots counted, regardless of missing stamps, postmarks, and other silliness. The truth is he did not, and his legal weasels argued in front of election judges to throw these ballots out. So you can spin anyway you want, it still came down to the candidate. Anyway, I am tired of 2000, cant you Gorbots get over it, and MOVEON.ORG, just fuggetaboutit!!!!

    Democrats don’t seem to realize that Bush isn’t running for anything again, ever, yet this attacking Bush continues unabated. Hint: Keep it up because it will ensure you lose again in 08. Actually, to set the record straight, I am more of a whole wheat Republican, but I may try some Tofutti when I can find it.

  64. Mary Rosh

    Dave, as I said before, military personnel don’t have any less right to vote than anyone else, but they don’t have any more right to vote, either. Why should Gore have said that he wanted illegally cast military ballots counted?
    Once again, you prove yourself a coward who shields your views from criticism by hiding them behind our soldiers. You don’t care anything about our soldiers; if you did, you would be in Iraq, taking up the sacrifices you urge upon them. With respect to the 2000 election, you care about two things:
    1. Claiming that Bush was legitimately elected.
    2. Justifying the disenfranchisement of black people.
    You pretend to be solicitous of our soldiers, because such a pretense helps you cloak your true intentions. Gore’s objection to the counting of illegally cast votes was in keeping with U.S. law, Florida law, and the ideals of democracy, which say that EVERY person’s vote is entitled to the SAME consideration.
    Interfering with the counting of votes by mob violence, on the other hand, is not in keeping with the ideals of democracy. Your endorsement mob violence shows that you are not really a “white bread” Republican; “white sheet” Republican is the most accurate description for you.

  65. Ready to Hurl

    re: white sheet Republicans
    Dave, can you explain why most of the old-line racist pols (Strom Thurmond, for instance) in the south moved to the Republican Party after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed?
    Try not to get dizzy spinning that one.

  66. Ready to Hurl

    Lee, lemme get your logic straight on Valerie Plame.
    Since the AP could determine that some 1,000 people work for the CIA then it’s OK for the highest officials to leak any covert or non-covert agent’s name to a national pundit.
    See, this is where you lose me.
    Bush I seemed to take exception to your position so strongly that he proposed, and Congress passed a law to make it illegal.
    Then, Dear Leader said, on videotape, that he’d like to know who leaked Plame’s name and then they’d be fired. Well, so far, Rove and Skippy have admitted to leaking it.
    What’s the Liar-in-Chief supposed to do without his brain, though?
    Now, he’s hiding behind “legal technicalities” (to use a phrase that wingnuts love to abuse). Both of those slugs work at the pleasure of the president. All he has to do is call’m in; give’m a lie detector; and, fire them.
    What a lying, gutless moron Brad & Co. endorsed but at least they don’t worship him like you and Dave.

  67. Dave

    RTH- So Robert Byrd, a Klan member, moved to the GOP. I thought he stayed in the Dem party actually. Algore’s father voted against the CRA and Al has always been a closet racist. Ask Donna Brazile about the lack of black involvement on his staff. Here is my take on it, the Dems for the most part patronize the black population with promises of more free Uncle Sam goodies and most of them show up on MLK Day and mouth all the right things. Then they go back to their lily white neighborhoods and at the elite cocktail parties mumble approvingly about all they did for those poor, illiterate (meaning dumb), crimeridden, family-less black voters. They pride themselves as modern day benevolent plantation masters. So in the end they don’t DO anything to help the black race but they FEED good about how they think. The black race hustlers who are accepted as leaders by the Dem establishment are tolerated as long as they deliver votes. When they try to get off the plantation, like when Maynard Jackson competed for the DNC leadership position, they find out where they really belong from the likes of the Clintons and McCauliff’s, Carville, Dean, and company. Show me some facts to disprove that.

    The GOP is the color blind party and accepts any human being who believes in improving the society we live in without using the model of bigger government and lessening of individual rights. More and more blacks are moving in the GOP direction but reversing 50 years of this type of culture won’t happen overnight.

  68. Lee

    RTH, did you have the same problem when Democrats in the Clinton circle leaked the names of real covert CIA operatives, who were killed by our enemies?
    Do you have a problem with CIA agents who failed in their analysis of Iraq now leaking classified information to the Democrat media in an attempt to rehabilitate their reputations by smearing Bush?
    In 1995, the big CIA “intelligence failure” story in the New York Times was how President Bush expelled Iraq from Kuwait in 1991, unaware that Saddam had deployed chemical and biological weapons in SCUD missiles, and was close having a nuclear bomb. From 1995 to 2001, all we heard from Clinton and the liberal press was how Saddam still had secret WMD hidden all over Iraq.

  69. bud

    Lee likes to utilize an old tired-out conservative ploy to avoid the truth – Blame Clinton. The way it works is no matter how devastating the evidence is against the president simply smear Clinton and that makes everything ok. Of course Rush Limbaugh has made a carreer out of this type of nonsense and Lee is just spreading the gospel (according to Rush). I used to be amused by this nonsense but it’s simply become tiresome now.
    Here’s an example of how this works. Let’s say Mary or Hurl points out that Bush made false statements regarding WMD in the months leading up to the war. The argument should focus on whether the president lied intentionally to lead us into war for whatever unrelated reason, or, was he given bad intelligence regarding Iraqi capability and really did believe Sadam was a serious threat. Either way the responisibility of the false statements lies entirely with the Bush. Whatever Bill Clinton said or did is irrelevant.
    Conservatives play this game with all sorts of issues, the economy, gasoline prices, the environment and my personal favorite – health care. Remember Hillary’s failed attempt to do something positive about health care? The plan was defeated by republicans and conservative democrats. Well, guess what happened? The problems with health care, especially the cost, have gotten worse. But what do conservatives say? Clinton never did anything about health care either? Or, if Hillary’s plan had passed things would be even worse. Whatever the specific verbiage the attack is always the same, launch a diversionary attack against someone with no power and ignore the evidence against those in charge.
    Lee, you really should listen to someone besides Rush, Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck. They offer nothing but excuses and Clinton bashing. They try to pretend that Clinton has some sort of power, but this game is getting old and has certainly lost any persuasive power it may have had. I for one choose to live in the present.

  70. Ready to Hurl

    Lee, don’t you ever get tired of avoiding admitting the truth? I sure get weary of your partisan dodges.
    Go ahead and bring up Clinton. I’m not going to research it to prove you wrong. Why waste my time? The issue is obviously an irrelevant red herring meant to avoid facing reality.
    Just be aware that, like bud says, everyone recognizes your pathetic little debate tactics– even if you’re too invested in Dear Leader’s sanctity to admit his deceptions and incompetence.

  71. Lee

    Clinton and all the Democrats who claimed that Saddam had piles of hidden WMD have to share some of the blame for the war they started with the bombing or Iraq in 1998. Kerry sat on the Senate Intelligence Committee. George Tenet was appointed by Clinton. Some Clinton appointees, like Anthony Lake, were rejected because of their leaking classified information.
    The fact is that Saddam had WMD and any Democrat in Congress or the Senate who now says otherwise is lying.

  72. Dave

    Hillary wanted to make Health Care USPS Part II. All federal employees, handsomely paid, great bennies, super retirement, while our medical system would go down the toilet. Liberals can’t understand why Canadiens travel into the USA to have operations. The British health system stinks to high heaven. I have friends there. Just TRY to get elective surgery. What a joke.

  73. Lee

    The primary means of cost savings under socialized medicine is the rationing of care, to the point of letting patients just die.

Comments are closed.