Many of y’all can no doubt answer this; I just probably haven’t asked the right people yet, so I’m still in the dark. (And yes, I’ve seen some explanations; I just don’t find them satisfactory.)
What happened to Bombay? Where did it go? Yeah, I know they call it Mumbai now (at least, sometimes), but why?
And how did Peking become Beijing? I mean, those are really different. Or Mao Tse-Tung become whatever they call him now?
I’m probably working on a wrong assumption here, but were the names we used to call these places and people supposed to be phonetic representations of the originals? So did they start pronouncing it differently, or did one dialect achieve hegemony over another and become the official version? Are there Indians who still say "Bombay" or Chinese who will always say "Peking," only they have lost some sort of battle among cultures?
Were the Western imperialists just that incompetent at rendering what they heard when they rolled into these places? Or was it the British insistence upon setting themselves apart from the natives by mispronouncing all foreign words?
Or are people who run these countries just messing with us?
And why do we write Sadr if it’s pronounced "Sodder?" Or is it actually pronounced in some way that the Western tongue can’t get around?
I have many stupid questions. Here’s hoping someone out there has some smart answers.
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Yes, I thought those were two different cities until my wife upbraided me for my ignorance. An Indian person should answer here to clarify for us. I do think most of the cases were British colonialists trying to Anglicize names that contained sounds that are not part of our language. Just as there’s no real “r” or “L” sound in Japanese, but something kind of in-between, I’m guessing that Indians begin the word Mumbai with a consonant that is something between a “B” and an “M,” which after all are not that far apart—just a matter of whether there is air forced out when the lips are parted.
What I found interesting is that your paper’s headline went with old-school “Bombay.” Is that a McClatchy style policy or did that differ with various papers in the chain?
Apparently, it’s AP style.
And "style," among journalists, doesn’t refer to personal preferences or expressions of individuality. Quite the opposite. It’s the device whereby newspapers (or wire services) try to impose a consistent uniformity of voice and usage.
Most newspapers with which I have been associated use AP style, with local addenda and variations. Some of the highfalutin’ newspapers draft their own, from start to finish.
The site to which I refer above isn’t exaggerating when it calls The Associated Press Stylebook "The Jounalists ‘Bible’."
I was something of a biblical literalist at the start of my career, when I was a copy editor. I was young and full of myself, and the enforcement of style is one of the few ways that copy editors have of asserting ascendancy over writers.
Nowadays, I honor style as often in the breach as in conformity. I mean, most of the time I use it unconsciously, but when I vary from it I MEAN to do so, because I believe the alternative usage is clearer, or more esthetically pleasing.
About ten years ago the BJP party (conservatives) won the national elections they changed the names of several cities like Bombay and Madras. Remember the Madras shirts, groovy. They did it because the Brits Anglocized the original names. I work with Indians here and there every day. Sheri.
The Muslims are what happened to Bombay really. Just like they happened to Israel, Iraq, Afghan., London, Bali, Spain, the Munich Olympics, and of course right here on 9-11. Remember Barry whatshisname, “We’re on the Eve of Destruction” fame? We aren’t but if the western world is smart, the Muslims will soon see the eve of destruction. Better to do it now, rather than wait till they get The Bomb. Then again, we have many who would prefer to give them what they want, which is our civilization.
Still at it, Dave? Final solution to the Muslim question? I guess every society has to have a scapegoat.
Herb, It’s not a coincidence that virtually every aggression in the world today is Muslim related, with the N. Korea exception. What is your final solution? This is an odd form of world war, some just dont want to recognize it.
Herb, I like you but you are projecting your Germanic guilt think on people like me. I have never proposed a holocaust, like the Germans actually effectuated, on any peoples. I do want to see every single fanatical terrorist sent to meet Allah, but I never included all Muslims in that. Give that some prayer time if you would.
Dave, just a “minor” clarification to your “let’s nuke the Muslims” screed.
Our “ally,” Pakistan, already has nukes and, in the recent past, attempted to sell them and missile technology to the highest bidder.
Perhaps you didn’t know that Pakistan is 97% Muslim.
In case the above was too subtle for you, Dave, let me simplify: “The Muslims” already have “the bomb.” So, as usual, you were (a)wrong, (b) biased, (c) misinformed, and (d) ignorant.
Otherwise, it was great post.
Always Hurling – I guess I have to spell it out for you. Pakistan is an ally led by a pro-Western, pro-American leader who is also trying to kill fanatical Muslims. I guess you missed that. Al Qaeda has tried to kill him several times. I don’t care if Muslims have the bomb who are sane. The leaders of Iran are not sane and I guess you missed that too. They will use the bomb as soon as they get it. Also, that was Bill Clinton selling missile technology to the highest bidder, not Pakistan.
I never said “Let’s nuke the Muslims”. Anyway, we won’t do it, Israel will.
Dave, if your Clinton charges are true, then Ronald Reagan (from his seat in Sheoal, conveniently located between Strom Thurmond and Walt Disney) is proudly smiling up at Bill.
I’m sure all three of them are patiently keeping Ollie North’s someday-seat warm(er).
Capital A – You say If the charges against Clinton are true. I will let you do some historical reading about Huang, The Lippo Group, Huang as an agent of the Communist Chinese govt., but on Clinton’s staff as an appointment. Huang violating the Hatch Act, the DNC returning nearly all of the “known” money coming from Huang, etc. etc. etc. Clinton’s administration was likely the most corrupt in history, and I don’t have time to rehash all of this.
Just one piece here of the Clinton legacy:
U.S. spy satellite photos confirmed the machines sold to China for “civilian” use were diverted to the Nanchang facility for making jet fighters and missiles. A giant, 5 axis, stretch press for aircraft manufacture, was sold in 1994 to CATIC, a Chinese state owned corporation, controlled by Generals of the People’s Liberation Army.
The Clinton administration approved the sale of the press to CATIC through the Commerce Department then under Ron Brown. The approval came just before Mr. Brown left on his whirlwind tour of China in August 1994. Federal investigators charged the Chinese company never had any intention of purchasing the equipment for civilian use because the facility constructed to house the giant machine was put inside the Nanchang military aircraft plant.
The Nanchang Aircraft Corp. military site was being built even as Chinese officials told U.S. Commerce officials that the press was bound for a civilian airliner plant just outside of Beijing. In addition, Nanchang officials inspected some of the equipment just before McDonnell Douglas shipped it in late 1993.
Nanchang is China’s main producer of advanced warplanes and missiles capable of nuclear or chemical attack. For example, Nanchang has produced over 1,000 advanced Q-5/A-5 jet fighter bombers.
Bombay/Mumbai
I am indian when pronounced the B & M are very similar.
The reason for this change was the two languages, Marathi and Gujarati. Mumbai comes from the Koli goddess Mumba Devi.In Marathi Mumbai means mother.
The name Bombay may have come from the Portuguese description of the harbour, “Bom Bahia”, meaning good bay.