I just received this official release related to my previous post. Sounds like a VERY organized "debate." Or perhaps a well-orchestrated ambush. Depends on your perspective, I suppose. Anyway, it’s unusual:
AGENDA
Informational
Meeting of the Board of Economic Advisors Called by the
Chairman
AGREED MEETING
BETWEEN
Thomas Ravenel,
Candidate for South Carolina Treasurer andJohn S. Rainey,
Chairman of the Board of Economic AdvisorsAugust 24,
200610:00 am
Governor’s
Conference RoomWade Hampton
Building
I. Call to Order Chairman Rainey
II. Welcome and Recognitions Chairman Rainey
III. Presentation of data that supports a
$27 billion combined unfunded liability of the South Carolina Retirement System
and the state.Thomas Ravenel
IV. Presentation of data that supports
contention that “…in just the last three years, the state’s investment plan has
underperformed the median return of the other states by 70%!” Thomas Ravenel
V. Definition of “mediocrity” in the
context of a number or range of numbers with respect to investment returns,
specifically as related to the investment plans of “other states” or “large
public pension funds”, as appropriate.
Thomas
Ravenel
VI. Source for the proposition that “…the
greatest economic expansion in the history of mankind…” took place between 1980
and 1999.Thomas Ravenel
VII. Review of the performance of Richard
Eckstrom in his management of the South Carolina Retirement System’s and the
state’s funds, by illustration with data, during his term as Treasurer of South
Carolina (1995-1999) relative to that of Grady Patterson, as Treasurer, during
the period 1980 – 1994.Thomas
Ravenel
VIII. Presentation of basis for assertion
that Mr. Patterson’s “…financial strategies haven’t changed since the 1960’s,
resulting in South Carolina once again lagging behind the other 49
states”.Thomas Ravenel
IX. Presentation of basis for assertion
that Grady Patterson, during his tenure as Treasurer, has painted “…a rosy, but
misleading, picture for other state officials and the taxpayers”.Thomas Ravenel
X. Closing Comments
Thomas Ravenel
XI. Closing Comments Chairman Rainey
XII. Adjournment Chairman Rainey
Agenda Items III through
IX are issues raised by Mr. Ravenel either in his letter to Chairman Rainey of
August 7, 2006 or in an article in The
Greenville News of August 15, 2006.
Questions and comments
will be entertained following each agenda item from those present, including
press representatives.
Related Posts
1. Was the formatting in the original as screwed up as in your post?
2. What’s your point?
No. I tried to strip out the formatting, but it failed.
My point is that this is an odd sort of “debate.” They don’t usually have agendas sent out by the Budget and Control Board PR folks — a fact that I neglected to mention.
It’s obviously styled after a formal debate a la The Oxford Union debates.
I know that this is a beknighted state with mostly ill-educated populace but it’s disappointing, indeed, embarrassing when an opinion leader displays such rank ignorance.
Maybe a grad student intern would save you from such public displays in the future, Brad.
This is not on topic, but is important news: “The quality of student performance in the state [SC] is typically on par with the (national) average, and improving more rapidly” – from a study commissioned by state business leaders.
This is a Ric Flair karate chop to the neck of the education nay-sayers who insist our schools are terrible. I wonder what Sanford will say now.
I’m not suggesting our schools are where they need to be. I also admit there are many glaring problems. But this independent, business sponsored study speaks volumes.
🙂
South Carolina public schools have always graduated outstanding students who went on to high achievement in the nation’s top universities. The question is how much the schools have to do with the success of highly intelligent and motivated individuals.
The test scores of those in school become irrelevant for many students the moment they drop out of school.
Their exodus does help raise the average test scores of the remaining students.
“a study commissioned by state business leaders”
That’s all we need to know. Business leaders have a vested interest in portraying things in a rosy way so they can attract more businesses to the state. By no means does this mean that our “educators” are finally teaching. Our public schools are still right at the bottom where they’ve always been.
BTW Randy, a link is always appreciated! Do you think you could provide one?
Never mind. Found the story already and as usual Randy cherrypicked the one semi-favorable sentence fragment and ignored all the bad news. Here’s the continuation of the sentence he highlighted: “The quality of student performance in the state is typically on par with the (national) average, and improving more rapidly, whereas the quantity of students produced is well below the U.S. average, and falling further behind.”
So as I said earlier, no good news here. Move along, folks.
Well, actually, there is plenty of good news here. What it means is that the public schools are doing better and better. It’s the kids who are not IN the public school system any more who are failing.
And I’m sorry, but saying that’s because the departure of dropouts raises the average of those remaining doesn’t cut it. That works on exit exams, but not on the kinds of tests where we’ve seen the most dramatic improvement, such as among 4th-graders. The kids who started their school careers after we instituted the Education Accountability Act and PACT are the ones doing so much better. It’s older kids who are dropping out.
And there in a backward way you have just identified the problem, Brad. Our kids do reasonably well in elementary school but the longer they stay in school, the worse they get. Clear evidence that our failed school system is actively harming our kids. Time for a change. Full school choice!
Lex, I find it hypocritical that you accuse me of cherry picking part of that sentence to support my claim then you offer up the other part to justify scrapping the whole system.
Brad said it, there is alot of good news here. Is the drop out rate an atrocity? Of course. This is not evidence that the whole system is bad. To suggest otherwise is disengenous.
By the way, the drop out rate is calculated on the percent of students who do not graduate in the Spring of their senior year. There are many students who finish in the summer or even the fall after their senior year, yet they are counted as drop outs.
Randy,
check the table on page 5 of the study report. It doesn’t matter how you define the dropout rate because SC is way behind on all the definitions except one. Are all these studies wrong? Or are you just attacking the methodology because you can’t justify the facts?
Randy, if the school system is not property counting the drop out students, as you claim, then they are not to Square One as far as solving the problem. Why would they be so incompetent about such a major issue?
They are incompetent? Lee, you cited a USC professor’s report who used this standard. Check the validity of your own source.
Yes, I did have a source, which you dismissed. Is that your source now, or do you have another one?
Back to my original question, WHY are the educrats so incompetent that they don’t count the dropouts correctly? And how do you know?
Back to the thread topic of our bankrupt retirement system – let’s be smart and just tell every state worker that they are getting a payout, declining with years of service, out of the existing funds. Then shut the program down and let the state workers invest for their own retirement in the same programs that the taxpayers use.
Speaking of competence, Lee can you support your plan for private school choice? I see little more from you than “schools are bad.” Prove me wrong and post something substantive. Cite one state wide example of such a plan working. Why hasn’t Wisconsin taken to this plan when Milwaukee has had choice for 15 years?
I think it’s time you put some cards on the table.
Self-identified Randy Ewart,
we’ve been down this road before and found that there simply is no plan that would ever satisfy you. Instead, given that even you admit serious problems in the public school system, how about you provide us with a plan for fixing the whole dysfunctional mess?
Lex, The only plan discussed (but not supported) was your full choice model. I didn’t buy into it and now you suggest “no plan satifies me.” I find that exceedingly simplistic.
You summarily dismiss the entire system as bad and offer school choice as the panacea. I asked you to support your plan. You offered up a blind faith in the market system as justification.
I will ask some simple yet important questions again about the plan for which you have so much faith:
1) Why hasn’t Wisconsin adopted state wide choice if it’s so effective in Milwaukee? Identify a single state that has.
2) Identify a private school like Heathwood or Hammond that has had to deal with a diverse population like the ones in the public schools.
3) Where will these private schools get the teachers for this influx of new students?
1. Full choice has never, ever been implemented on a statewide basis because the educracy fights tooth and nail against even extremely limited choice plans. Why not start with South Carolina? Surely we can’t go any lower than 50th in the country!!
2. Heathwood actually has a very diverse population, probably more so than your average public school. You really should go there sometime and see for yourself.
3. I guess you’re assuming that the public schools will lose lots of students with school choice. Why would that ever happen if parents are satisfied with your “services”? And if they aren’t satisfied, why should their kids continue to be imprisoned on your plantation? This point is always the one on which you guys have never been able to provide a good response. If you’re truly doing a good job you have nothing to worry about, and if you’re not doing a good job why should we keep you in business?
In any case, fewer PS students would also mean that fewer PS teachers are needed. Thus they could apply for employment at private schools.
1) Your justification for vouchers is to blame educators for blocking it’s use in other places?
2) Heathwood may have racial diversity, but more so than say AC Flora? Take a drive down Taylor street. The projects across the street from Providence Hospital is full of Flora students. I doubt there are any Heathwood students there or any similar place. Take a drive behind Columbia Mall (or whatever they call it now) in New Castle and take a look where many Spring Valley students live. I doubt any Heathwood students reside there or are running with the NCN gang.
3) You want to hire the same people working at the “failed schools” that provide a “terrible” eduation?
I hardly see how this justifies a complete overhaul to institute a plan that has not been proven to work on such a scale.
Why not start with South Carolina?
Brad may have already tumbled onto this little gem but many, many other people haven’t. Why are wealthy, reactionary rightwing billionares from everywhere but SC so interested in the SC educational system?
Why did SCRG not only spend monies to influence state legislative races but also to defeat the District Five bond referendum?
My theory: the same reason that Enron set up a faux grass roots group to lobby for deregulated electrical service years ago. They see a poor, backwards, one-party state that can be easily and cheaply bought.
Texas columnist Molly Ivins warned the nation that Dubya had used his home state as a laboratory for bad government. She warned that he would transplant his cronies’ diasterous Texas policies to the national government.
The assault on public education in SC that Sanford, SCRG and Lexie so tireless flog is really just an attempt to use our kids as real life guinea pigs in another reactionary, rightwing laboratory of bad government.
Self-identified Randy Ewart,
1. Huh? What are you talking about?
2. Is AC Flora your average public school? Why are you dragging out a bad school to complain about Heathwood getting better students? Yet when we’re talking about how poorly SC schools are doing as a whole you drag out one of the few good schools as “proof” that SC schools are not at the bottom, either, thank you very much? You can’t have it both ways, you know!
3. There is probably nothing wrong with most public school teachers that better management couldn’t fix quickly. Even you have admitted how stifling and nonsensical the system is.
1)
Randy: Identify a state with state wide choice.
Lex: SC can be the first, educators blocked all previous efforts.
Randy: You justify the use of state wide school choice with the accusation that educators blocked state wide school choice in other states? That justifies using this plan?
2)
Randy: Idenify a private school that has dealt with a diverse student population like the public schools.
Lex: Heathwood
Randy: Flora has students from the projects. Heathwood hardly has that diversity.
Lex: Flora is an average SC school?
Randy: YES! Maybe Lexington, Chapin, and Dutch Fork don’t have such diversity. MOST public schools do Lex!
3)
Lex, you think the public school teachers could be “fixed” at the private schools? Do you have even a SHRED of evidence to support the line of reasoning that teachers are broken and will be fixed? I think you stooped to a new low on this one.
FYI, Heathwood was racially integrated 20 years before the first public school in SC.
As a point of remedial education in basic logic, it is not possible to “prove” in advance exactly how the private sector will solve the problems created by public education.
We know that the private sector has proven itself superior to the public sector in every area of services, because it rewards accountability to customers. It is not a static system imposed from above, but a continually adapting system of customer response.
Self-identified Randy Ewart,
1. No, I’m not using that to justify school choice. You demanded to know why school choice hadn’t been tried on a statewide basis, apparently as a “reason” why we shouldn’t try it here. I then informed you that the reason was the vociferous, tooth-and-nail opposition of the educracy. This has nothing to do with justifying school choice, either for or against.
2. Please provide us the breakdown of Heathwood students. If you’re so sure that they are not as diverse as other schools, then surely you have the numbers to back you up, don’t you? Please include links so we can see for ourselves.
3. I don’t think that teachers are broken. Many are perfectly fine and could easily be salvaged with proper management and leadership. What is broken is the system. That could also be fixed but so far the educrats are unwilling to even admit that they have very serious problems requiring drastic solutions. Heck, you guys can’t even agree on metrics to measure just how bad the problems are. How can we possibly rely on you for solutions?
“teachers are not broken” but “can be salvaged” sounds like either a contradiction or Clintonese
“agree on metrics” – talk to your ELECTED school board officials and legislators who create the metrics.
Heathwood not as diverse? Let’s see, Heathwood costs 12K a year for middle and high school. On their website they explain that 25% of students receive subsidies to pay for the tuition. At Flora, 25% receive subsidies to afford LUNCH!
Lex, please share links to how the other states had attempted school wide choice but were blocked by educators. Surely you have these readily available to post since you used this research as a basis for your claim.
Self-identified Randy Ewart,
Florida is probably the farthest along the road to school choice but even their program is severely limited. Yet even then, the educrats tried to block the program in 1999. Here’s a good overview of the school choice program’s many trials and tribulations
Here’s a state-by-state status resource/a>
close.
The basic concept of free enterprise is that the business owners and customers don’t have to JUSTIFY their business models and buying decisions to government politicians and bureaucrats.
That is WHY the private sector provides superior service, often at a much lower cost.
Limus Test of the Day:
How many public school teachers, administrators and their backers call for the removal of illegal aliens and the children of illegal aliens from the classroom, and want to assist Homeland Security in their arrest and deportation?
How many don’t care how they fill the seats, because that is how the schools get money from the state?
Lexie says to Randy: Please provide us the breakdown of Heathwood students. If you’re so sure that they are not as diverse as other schools, then surely you have the numbers to back you up, don’t you? Please include links so we can see for ourselves.
Lexie, if your daughter attends Heathwood then why don’t YOU provide proof that Heathwood is as diverse as “other schools?”
According to Heathwood’s website the school has “10% diversity.” I suppose that refers to racial composition of the student body because we know that it couldn’t refer to economic class status.
You don’t know anything, or you would have posted it, instead of your assumption.
We do KNOW that Heathwood and most private schools provide tuition assistance to help improve their socio-economic mix of students.
RTH,
Randy made the claim that Heathwood isn’t diverse. It’s his job to back up his claim, not my job to prove him wrong.
Add “15-20%” to tuition for the cost of educating a Heathwood student. If my quick calculations are correct then it costs between $14,805 and $15,451 to educate a Highlander.
Lexie, does your daughter ride the bus? I’ll bet transportation is extra. Does that add another $500 per year (or more) to educating a Heathwood student?
One of the things that spending about TWICE what top ps districts spend per student buys is smaller classes: 8:1 vs. 25:1 in District 5.
In 1950 ps probably had higher students to teacher ratios. But, let’s stop to wonder: Heathwood is a fabulous product of the superbly efficient private enterprise system. Did some educrats sneak in and brainwash the Heathwood board about the efficacy of small classes?
From the Heathwood website…
Current parents, alumni, grandparents, alumni parents, faculty/staff and friends – all have a stake in the success of Heathwood Hall Episcopal School. The Annual Fund is the cornerstone of giving for our school, helping to cover the 15-20% of operating expenses not covered by tuition. Donors have the satisfaction of knowing that their contributions provide daily support that touches all students, including such things as computers, art supplies, professional development for faculty and athletic equipment.
Lexie, you have personal knowledge of Heathwood. Surely, you would disprove Randy’s assertion if you could.
BTW, the student body has 15% “diversity” instead of 10%. My bad. The faculty has 10% “diversity.”
Heathwood says that 25% of its students receive tuition assistance. Lexie, maybe you can find out what that really means.
Does it mean that 209 students get, say, a $200 discount each? Or, does it mean that X students have tuition waived while the rest of the 209 get differing levels of discount?
If you’re going to claim that Heathwood actually has an economically diverse student body then you’ll have to demonstrate it.
Randy’s main form of debate is to assert things as if they are fact, use them to “prove” the point he hopes to make, then disappear for a while.
RTH is big on pure speculation.
RTH,
you don’t understand. Let me break it down for you: you make the charges, you back them up. I don’t have to help you make your case.
Here’s the deal, Lexie: you’re touting a school that skims the cream off the top of academically qualified students from families that can spare more than $13 grand a year per student.
You contend that vouchers worth (at most) a measly 7-8 grand are the panacea for education. Just let the fabled private enterprise system work its magic!
You claim that such a school can handle economically diverse students despite the evidence that the Heathwood student body is anything but diverse economically.
Well, here’s your opportunity to offer a little proof to back up your pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by blather. Here’s the bloom of your private enterprise certified school.
But, you’re unwilling to make the smallest good-will efort to support your case. I don’t blame you. You don’t have a leg to stand on. Keeping most of the data about Heathwood obscure is your best chance for avoiding admitting that your “plan” won’t fly.
Of course, that’s intellectually bankrupt but, there you go, it’s just the way Lexie rolls.
BTW, Lexie, I’ve always thought that private enterprise operated on the profit motive. Where are your spiffy new private enterprise schools going to find 20% profit margins? Heathwood seems to have a 15-20% shortfall while they’re charging 50% more than ps districts spend to educate students.
I’ll bet that this is what they call a suck-ass business model in b-school.
Lex, you are using the Heritage Foundation as your source? Shall I pull out NEA research and have a deul of partisan sources?
Here’s how Heritage describes themselves:
“Our Mission
Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institute – a think tank – whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.”
They are extremely partisan. What next, you’ll cite Rush Limbaugh as a source?
Diversity between Heathwood and Flora:
25% of Heathwood students get subsidies to pay for the 12K tuition. 25% of Flora students get subsidies to pay for lunch.
Lex, you don’t see a difference there?
RTH,
forget Heathwood Hall, and liberate your thinking! The people sending their kids there now are not the people who we’re talking about when discussing school choice. They either have enough money to pay for tuition or they already get financial assistance. One way or another they are taking care of their kids’ education.
The people we are talking about, and the ones who would most benefit from school choice, are the poor and middle class who can’t afford Heathwood Hall’s tuition, or maybe even Cardinal Newman’s $5K or whatever. Those are the very people who are suffering the most under the current system. That “measly” $7K or $8K would be sufficient for tuition in most current and future private schools, and certainly would be enough for tuition in their local public school. Some of them might even be able to afford HH since instead of $12K they would need to come up with only $4K. But hey, why support people’s aspirations when you can just drag them down to your own level instead?
Why would private schools need 20% profit margins? After all, even the “gouging” oil companies get by with 9 cents on the dollar!! For many years, Rolls Royce was losing money even as they were charging far more for their cars than most people would pay for their houses.
Lex, you contradict yourself. Heathwood is the issue because YOU made it the issue. You suggested they were just as diverse as public schools. That was your justification that private schools could handle the influx of a diverse student population with choice in action.
Now you want to back track? Just say so. It’s ok to admit that you made a mistake. Actually, you already have when you admitted you send your daughter to private schools so she wouldn’t be around the “idiots” we HAVE to teach.
“Lex, you contradict yourself. Heathwood is the issue because YOU made it the issue. You suggested they were just as diverse as public schools.”
Bullhockey! I never even mentioned HH until YOU claimed they weren’t diverse, without offering even a shred of evidence. There was no mention at all of HH until your Aug 23, 2006 7:17:40 PM post.
While checking for that, I also just noticed your “Ric Flair karate chop” comment. Is that the intellectual level of public HS math teachers?
Lex, I brought up HH with Hammond as general references to private schools. What’s with you cherry picking from my quotes? You then specifically brought up HH as an example of diversity.
Are you still offering up HH as equally diverse as AC Flora or not? If they are the same, why did you transfer your daughter again? And what about the maybe 36 black students in all of SC private schools who took an AP exam last year? That’s diversity? How many students at HH qualify for free and reduced lunch? How many students at HH are under state mandates for accomodations in the classroom? How many non-English speakers are there? You suggest they are equally diverse so support your claim please.
A more realistic free market alternative might be a school for the dropouts who want to now get a diploma or GED, taking classes in a rented office ($500 a month) for 1/2 the cost of public school ($5,000 for 9 months), and 15 of them ( $75,000 ) paying a private school, which keeps about 15% for admin costs ( $10,000), and pays the teacher $65,000 (a rate of $7,000 a month, or $84,000 for a full year).
That is what scares the hell out of the educrats.
Lee, there is adult education for drop outs wanting the GED. There are more than 15 students. You can pay the teacher alot less, but I have doubts about the other figures – an office for $500? There are also government regulations for the use of buildings.
BUT, I think this plan has some merit. Targeted use of privatization can be successful. I think it could work here because the students choose to participate. If they don’t want to finish, adios.
Of course, you had to taint a meaningful suggestion with the same mindless blanket generalizations. Scares educrats is laughable in this situation. They may very well agree.
If the educrats aren’t afraid of school choice, why do they run a scare campaign against it?
Lee, if you’re so sure about school choice, explain how the private schools will handle the diversity. After all, YOU Lee are the one that specifically stated that schools should take responsibility for the low socio-economic students with little or no parental support.
Give ONE example of a city, let alone a whole state, that has incorporated full choice.
Talk about scare campaign, you bash public schools for being so bad, push a choice agenda, but can’t justify it one iota aside from some zealous belief in the market system as a cure all.
Self-identified Randy ewart,
Give ONE example of a city, let alone a whole state, where the educracy has not fought tooth and nail against school choice, blocking even slight moves toward choice.
Lex, you are blaming educators because you can’t support your plan? Are you going to wait around for them to email you about this as well?
Private schools already handle diversity.
Last year, American businesses spent over $100 BILLION on education and training for their employees, of all races, ages and genders. Much of that was remedial education, for skills not acquired by workers in their public education.
Randy Logic would have established the FAA before the Wright Brothers were allowed to attempt a flight, and the Wrights would have had to present a business plan “proving” the demand for airline passenger service, with fares and schedules less expensive than trains.
That’s the communist, socialist, and fascist mindset of central-planning – proven by history to not work.
Lee,
plus they would have had to build the factories to produce the airplanes, establish fuel depots at every airport, and of course construct a network of airports all across the country to make sure nobody would be “underserved”. All before they would ever attempt their first trial flight.
Yet all these facilities sprang up just a few years after the Wright brothers proved that their airplanes would fly. But somehow education is supposed to be oh-so-different that it couldn’t possibly fill the demand for private schools once funding is established. Makes you feel as if you’re in the Twilight Zone.
No, we are peering into the Twilight Zone of Public Education. Unfortunately, their side of their enclosure is a mirror, and an echo chamber.
Heh. Just imagine Randy demanding that the Wright brothers show him JUST ONE other place where an airplane has ever flown before.
And the drawings of “that right-wing nutjob”, Leonardo da Vinci’s helicopter, would be unacceptable.
And where would the pilots and flight attendants come from? Surely not that failing horse-and-carriage industry or those newfangled trains. And besides, the main beneficiaries of flight would be The Rich while the poor and middle class would continue to be stuck with riding at horse speed or crammed into smoky trains.
Instead of performing satire created by the application of collectivist “thinking”, we can just look at it in practice for 60 years where social progress came to a stop under the Soviets, Red Chinese and North Koreans, and slowed to a crawl in the Voting Socialist countries of Europe.
Yet socialists and liberals here still insist that the government they wouldn’t trust to cook them a hamburger should have control of educating all children.
A couple questions here: did the airplane completely replace all current forms of travel?
How was this a government vs market situation?
Was there a law requiring people to travel or was this already a market situation?
Was more than 1/2 the NC (or Ohio) state budget shifted over to them to test their plans?
Following this Wright analogy, Lex and Lee should go off to the coast and experiment with their choice plan. Once they find that it works, they can present it to the rest of us. We’ll be here when you get back guys.
“Private schools already handle diversity.” – Lee
True Lee. Some Heathwood parents pay the full 12K a year. Some get subsidies.
Meanwhile, Flora handles students from the projects and with their phone cut off. Richland 2 handles students from New Castle and the NCN gang. Many public schools have a large proportion of students who get subsidies to pay for LUNCH! Or is that not the divesity you meant?
Randy, you certainly are an example of the mentality which attempts to hold back progress in the world. It is no coincidence that you chose to become a government employee.
There is no law of nature which requires decent people to hire teachers to nursemaid the NCN gang. Public schools simply seek to pack every seat in order to file for state and federal funding that allows the huge admin staff, high salaries and extravagent benefits. If the gangsters don’t learn, it’s no problem. They will father plenty more with the unwed mothers who drop out and go sit in a welfare project collecting Food Stamps, WIC and welfare.
The primary reason there was a push for school nurses was to tend to the dozens of pregnant students at schools like Lower Richland.
Randy writes: Some Heathwood parents pay the full 12K a year. Some get subsidies.
Actually, HH tuition is closer to 13K, not counting “extras” like bus transport.
Since Lexie refuses to provide specific facts, we’re left with info on the website. HH provides approximately 209 students (25% of the students with some level of financial aid). The total amount of financial aid is $1.3 million.
Here’s where things get fuzzy. Do 100 students get a free ride or 200 get 50% reduction or some combination of full scholarships and partial aid to bring the total to 209?
I’m going to hazard a guess that no more than ten students get a free ride. That leaves $1.17 million to be distributed among 199 students (average=$5880 per student).
So this wonderful “diversity” attributed to HH is limited to ten (assumption) students whose families might be counted in the free or reduced lunch program of, say, Irmo HS. The remaining 199 financial aid students at HH have to kick in an average of approximately $7,000 each.
Call me crazy, but a family that can spend $7,000/year per child is almost positively upper middle class.
So, by my admittedly rough calculations, HH has 10 out of 837 students (1.1%) who might be equivalent to free or reduced lunchs at Irmo HS.
The IHS student body has 28%.
Oh, yes, here’s another variable: how many of those 100% scholarship students are actually children of HH staff and faculty? My sister teaches at a private school and has sent both her kids there with financial aid. Her kids certainly wouldn’t have been eligible for free or reduced lunch.
Isn’t the per-pupil cost in Richland 2 about $12,000?
“Public schools simply seek to pack every seat in order to file for state and federal funding that allows the huge admin staff” – Lee
That was plain silly. You really go out of your way to blame teachers. We have LAWS mandating education. These LAWS are not passed by educators.
Maybe we teachers are responsible for the global warming (that supposedly ended in 1998) too.
Show me where the teachers and administrators are lobbying to repeal the mandatory attendence laws, and the funding based on how many desks are occupied.
That’s your proof? Teachers don’t lobby against mandatory attendance laws so they are for jamming the classrooms full?
That’s a silly statement.
Do you and other public school teachers support mandatory attendance? Show us the official position, the surveys of the union members.
If you oppose it, why don’t you speak up for abolishing mandatory attendance?
If the schools can’t ATTRACT students, why should they be paid for empty seats in the class?
Lee, I have had students who are a real pain in the butt. I don’t want them to stay in school so I have more copier paper and markers from the funding equation. I want them to stay in school because it’s probably what’s best for them. It was YOU who suggested that educators and schools take responsibility for the attendance of low socio-economic students who have parents that “don’t care about them”.
You question our integrity for doing exactly what you said we should be doing? I think you look for something to criticize and educators are easy targets for you economists…er, engineers…
I question your honesty when you tap dance and refuse to answer questions directly, and offer nothing but vague notions as your “solutions”.
Question my honesty? Lol, based on what? It was you who posted “96.8% of all crime is committed by illegal immigrants”.
You are also the one citing his economist status in addition to his engineer status. Cap A or RTH pointed that out as well.
I don’t think you are honestly interested in solving the education problems, if it involves change to your comfortable status quo job.
Your continued posting of fabricated quotes of others, misquotes, out-of context quotes, and things which have been corrected, refined, and explained to you with sources cited, is your standard dishonest mode of operation, and quite anti-intellectual.
You just post here to disrupt discussion by those of us who actually want to improve education.
Wouldn’t it be nice if we could get an intellectually honest person to represent the educracy? Randy’s always good for throwing a monkey wrench into the discussion but utterly incapable of using logic and reason to advance his case. I really wish the SCEA would put somebody else on the job!
Intellectual honesty like this: Lex says we need school reform because SC schools are terrible. He then admits that elementary and middle schools are at the national average so we should have choice for the sake of having choice.
Logic and reason like Lex has demonstrated by calling people “troll” “dense” and “pathetic”?
How about the combination of the intellectual honesty and reason Lex has used. He admits he put his daughter in private schools to keep her from the “idiots” who act up in class in public school. He then suggests these same private schools are the solution for teaching these very “idiots” he doesn’t want around his daughter.
If that’s intellectual honesty, logic and reason, I won’t be using it Lex.
A special paste for Lee:
Terry M. Moe, a political scientist at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University and a leading proponent of vouchers, said he found Greene’s study important. But he noted that it relies on data from 10 of about 100 private schools accepting vouchers in Milwaukee. Moe said random samples of public school and voucher students would be necessary to determine the effects of vouchers.
RANDOM SAMPLES, the very method you stated was the “wrong”.
Nothing will make Randy understand or accept the concept of parents having the right to decide which schools and teachers they will hire to educate their children.
He does have a point, in that so many of those children who fail to graduate are black and without parents, so who will hire the schools for them?
Do we choose what police officers patrol our streets; firemen in our zone; EMS responders who show up at an accident; the mail carriers who stop at our house; the soldiers who fight for our country?
The government oversees many vital aspects of our society and they oversee the civil servants working in these areas. Not everything can be based on a market system.
If you think so Lee, show one example where your market plan replaced PUBLIC education…or will you too claim that educators control America and prevented cities and states from doing so?
Until recently, there were more volunteer firemen than hired ones, but the lack of citizenship and OSHA rules have reduced volunteers.
There are more private police than public ones, and more private EMS personnel than public ones. Until the 1920s, there were very few paid government police. Most arrests outside of the biggest cities were still by posse and the state militia volunteers.
The purpose of the government is only to provide those services which must be impartial, such as law enforcement.
There is no reason that all fire and EMS services shouldn’t be private, as they are in many towns. There is no reason why all education couldn’t be private, in a society where children are wanted and born into married two-parent households.
When we call the police, the fire department, EMS, etc. we do NOT ask for specific people.
“Hello police, I have an emergency, please send Officer Smith, I like the job he did with the Hendersons last year…”
When we call the police, the fire department, EMS, etc., we also know that they will usually do a pretty good job. Can’t say that about the public schools, I’m afraid.
Lex, you admitted the middle and elementary schools are on par with the national average. It was your swamp fox source.
Do you simply forget what you’ve written or do you choose to ignore it conveniently?
And the cities with the highest crime rate or accident death rate, how many of them have resorted to complete private choice? Maybe the teachers blocked those efforts as well.
What does “asking for a specific person” have to do with contracting for fire protection, security forces, ambulance or educational services?
Nothing, except Randy dodging the fact that the private sector is quite capable of providing fire, police, EMS and educational services.
the private sector is quite capable of providing fire, police, EMS and educational services. – Lee
REALLY? Name the city with private police or with private firefighters! Or will you blame teachers for cities not having such private providers?
60 Minutes did a show 20 years ago about major cities with paid private firefighters – which had better records of saving buildings and lives, lower insurance rates, and lower costs than government fire fighting agencies.
I was a volunteer firefighter for 7 years, in a town ajoining a larger one with municipal firehouses. We had lower insurance rates due to our performance in preventing and stopping fires.
LINK!
If you are too lazy to research your rebuttal, I doubt my tutoring will do you any good.
Next time, research before just naming things you think are good examples of the free market not working, instead of exposing your ignorance.
Benjamin Franklin organized some of the first Fire COMPANIES in the American colonies. Today, unions and politicians have forced the free market fire companies out of existance, but the government entities still call themselves “Fire Companies”. Check out “Ladder Company xx” next time you see them responding to fire in New York, Boston, Philadelphia or Chicago.
A brief history of how politics replaced a good solution with an inferior socialist one.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/Mcchesneyfire.html
Name the city with private police or with private firefighters! Or will you blame teachers for cities not having such private providers?
Two posts in reply and no references as requested.
Fred S. McChesney doesn’t provide any real-life examples, either.
Maybe all the private enterprise fire companies exist in Ayn Rand’s mythical free enterprise refuge.
Randy, obviously Lee and Lexie think that proposing new and untried systems to society’s most important challenges is enough.
Actually substantiating whether they’re likely to work (or NOT) is someone else’s job.
In that spirit, I’m proposing personal dirigibles as the answer to our transportation problems.
Don’t believe it? Disprove it.
RTH, the best part of this is I used Lex’s own source against him. This should put an end to this complete private school choice debate.
I also think if we gave everyone living at the poverty level a lap top, poverty would decrease by 64.7%.
The systems we propose are not untried.
They are simply novel to those of you who are unfamiliar with history, even in your own vocational field.
There are surely lots of new ideas that the free market will come up with, and which the government schools will not. Every old, failed method of the public schools was once a new idea. In fact, it is the public schools which are notorious for wasting money on, and abandoning, new methods every year, which fail the students.
I already named several cities which had totally private fire companies: New York, Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia. They worked fine, but politicians replaced them with union workers, for their own selfish power, not to give better service.
In recent times, Pheonix and Flagstaff, Arizona have had all-private fire companies.
Just as the teacher unions politically attack private business in order to eliminate superior competition, so do the firemen unions.
In recent times, Pheonix and Flagstaff, Arizona have had all-private fire companies.
Doggone it, Lee, I guess that you’ve “smacked me down” again! Well, except I was really asking for a current example. McChesney helpfully cited some 19th Century “private” fire fighting units– although he dishonestly conflates volunteer units with “for profit” fire fighting COMPANIES.
Life’s tough for victims of conspiracies, huh, Lee? The “mighty” teachers shut out voucher plans and the “politically powerful” fire fighters squashed private enterprise fire fighting companies.
—
From the history of the Phoenix FD:
Several fiery conflagrations struck the western town of Phoenix before the citizens took any measures to create a fire department. Finally, on Aug. 17, 1886, a special bond issue was passed that raised $10,000 to improve the water supply, purchase modern firefighting equipment and form Phoenix Engine Company #1. It was strictly a volunteer fire company with a charter membership of 25 men.
[…]
A paid, full time fire department was still a few years away in 1898, but on July 1 of that year, the first paid member was hired. Billy Simmons was employed as a custodian of the firehouse and caretaker of the equipment. Later, he would become the chief.
By 1908, the Phoenix Fire Department consisted of six companies with no more than 25 members each. There were five full-time paid positions – three drivers, one house captain and one extra man.
[…]
The department gradually changed from volunteer to a paid, full-time organization. By 1922, the transition was completed.
—
Here I go assuming again, Lee. I’m going to assume that the “transition” was actually from volunteers using gubmint equipment to gubmint employees using gubmint equipment.
Do you have other info?
You stopped far short of the fact that so many fire companies were still operating in Arizona in the 1980s, with better insurance ratings than public ones, which cost more money to operate.
I guess when you folks don’t like private enterprise, you don’t care that it is destroyed by corrupt unions and politicians, even if you do get worse service. Of course, wheh it is someone else being victimized by socialism, you really don’t care.
Scottsdale, Arizona
Rural/Metro’s Scottsdale operation is a shining example of how the public and private sectors can come together to run an efficient, responsive fire department.
Rural/Metro has served Scottsdale, Arizona since 1948, first through a subscription program and, when the city incorporated in 1951, through a contract for fire protection that has been stringently evaluated and renewed ever since.
Working in conjunction with city officials, Rural/Metro has been a positive force for improvement in Scottsdale. In addition to the most efficient emergency services available, Rural/Metro provides residents with significant tax savings and extensive community service programs.
Rural/Metro’s innovation has also helped to make Scottsdale one of the safest cities in the country. For example:
* An in-depth six-month study cited the Scottsdale Rural/Metro Fire Department as “one of the best fire departments we have had the opportunity to review;”
* Rural/Metro was instrumental in leading the passage of a residential and commercial fire sprinkler ordinance that has made Scottsdale a proven safer city in which to live and work (to view a 10-year study about fire sprinkler safety in Scottsdale click here);
* Taxpayers pay less than 46% of the national average for their fire protection;
* Scottsdale’s current fire loss rate is 235% better than the national average;
* Scottsdale’s emphasis on fire prevention has resulted in an incidence of structure fires that is more than 300% lower than the national average.
Lee, there’s no doubt that using private sector sources is useful. That’s NOT the point.
You and Lex have specifically stated that private schools should be unleashed with the Invisible Hand taking effect to fix all the ills of education without the interference of government.
Rural-Metro ANSWERS to the GOVERNMENT. The GOVERNMENT, not the people hold it accountable. Are you suggesting that the private schools in your voucher plan will answer to the government?!
The private sector provides superior service in every area except those which have to be the exclusive province of a limited government.
Education is one of those areas which the government controls only because it is in the interest of government to control young minds, not because the parents and children and taxpayers like it that way.
Private schools with tax-paid vouchers should be accountable to the government, and I expect they would be much more accountable than the public schools are now.
More importantly, they would have to be accountable to the customers – parents and students – much more than the detached and arrogant bureaucrats are now.
Private schools with tax-paid vouchers should be accountable to the government, and I expect they would be much more accountable than the public schools are now. – Lee
Ahoy Malloy, you are not for pure unadulterated private school choice then! That’s a big difference. On the Monitor thread you made similar comments to which I replied.
This is getting interesting.
Wow, another “smackdown” for Lee!
***TWEEET***
That’s the ref’s whistle, Lee. I ask you for current examples and you cite Phoenix and Flagstaff– not Scottsdale.
OK, it’s my fault for not “researching” every fire department in AZ, I guess.
***TWEEET***
That’s the ref’s whistle for citing outdated info.
In November, 2004 the company decided not to renew the Scottsdale contract.
Apparently, life with Rural/Metro isn’t a bed roses as indicated by these partial stories from azcentral.com (I’m too cheap to buy even one of the stories but you’ll get the drift.)
===========
RURAL/METRO SEEKS PEACE WITH CITIES IN WEST VALLEY
October 9, 2003
The Rural/Metro Fire Department, accused by West Valley cities of failing to provide adequate protection for Maricopa County residents, said Wednesday that it wants to improve relations with cities Valley-wide and develop standards for working with other departments. “We’re looking at a lot of things, like how we run our business, how we provide services,” said Dan Caudle, Rural/Metro’s West Valley battalion chief.
======
PAYING DOWN DEBT, BEING SELECTIVE ABOUT MARKETS HELP…
June 12, 2006
On June 6, Paradise Valley ended its 54-year firefighting and 911 contract with Rural/Metro Corp. A year ago, Rural/Metro and Scottsdale, the company’s hometown, parted ways after a contentious debate about fire services. The Arizona news for Rural/Metro hasn’t been rosy, but nationally, it is a different story for the Scottsdale-based company, the nation’s second-largest ambulance company. Rural/Metro appears to be making a financial recovery after
====
TALK OF BANKRUPTCY FOLLOWS RURA…
March 4, 2000
Already reeling from the departure of several top executives and struggling to restructure, Rural/Metro Corp. now has to fend off rumors that it’s about to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The company flatly denied Friday that it has talked about or is considering such a move. But the issue persists, given life by a comment made by a ratings agency that downgraded Rural/Metro’s debt and questioned whether it can make a $6 million bond payment March 15.
====
RURAL/METRO IS STRUGGLING WITH EXPANSION
February 14, 2000
Should Rural/Metro Corp. call 911? The firefighting and ambulance company certainly has seen better times. Two top executives recently quit, its stock is hovering near a five-year low and Rural/Metro is launching a reorganization that will chop jobs, take it out of unprofitable markets and result in a $60 million to $75 million charge against earnings. That’s not all. Rural/Metro is working to digest the nearly 80 acquisitions it’s made since it went public in…
====
Lee, what does happen when your fire protection company does an Enron?
Oh, I’m not Lee, RTH, and I really don’t know for sure but I suspect that another company would take over. After all, even all of Enron’s old customers never missed a day’s supply of energy, water etc., even after Enron went bankrupt, did they?
Now tell me this: what happens when an entity promises to provide medical care for all senior citizens for no more than $12 billion a year yet quickly finds that the costs far exceed estimates? What happens when an entity promises to provide a secure retirement for all senior citizens for no more than $3.5 billion a year yet quickly finds that the costs far exceed estimates?
Hint: if that entity is the government, they simply raise your taxes so they can spend $325 billion on Medicare (2005) or $595 billion on Social Security (2006).
Your mission, RTH, is to tell us what options the people have who are now forced to pay far more than they were told they would have to pay (Yes, the numbers are not as high when adjusted for inflation but clearly we are paying far, far more for these 2 programs than we were promised). Can we just switch companies as we could with Enron? YEAH RIGHT!
In other words, what do you do when your government flimflams you? I don’t know about you (actually I do) but I’ll take my chances with the free market any old day. At least you can simply go to the competition if a company doesn’t deliver on its promises. Just try that with your beloved government!
Posting problems about volunteer and for-profit fire companies being jerked around and put out of business by politicians and unions proves my point.
Since I was a Captain in a volunteer fire department for 7 years, and was called out to over 1,800 fires, I know a little bit about how various other volunteer, for-profit, and for-politics departments work.
But I am not like some of the teacher bigots who claim that no one else has a right to raise questions or criticize. I am here to help you learn about alternatives to socialism, Mr. Hurl.
…tell us what options the people have who are now forced to pay far more than they were told they would have to pay … Can we just switch companies as we could with Enron?
You vote them out of office, Lexie. That’s why we have elections fairly routinely.
If you were unhappy with the Rural/Metro fire fighting company in Scottsdale do you think that you could wake up one morning and choose a competitor? No. That’s because certain services require a monopoly to be viable.
In your simplistic world view Scottsdale (or Columbia) should resort to free market fire fighting. How would that work, Lexie? Sort of like car insurance, by subscription?
When your neighbor lets his subscription lapse and his burning house ignites two other houses… tough luck, huh?
What’s to stop your selected free market fire fighting outfit from cutting personnel; allowing aging equipment to breakdown routinely; and, scrimping on the new costly innovations to stave off bankruptcy (or simply increase shareholder value)?
It’s a little late to find out these facts while surveying the smoking ruins of your home. Sure, maybe your down-the-street neighbors will cancel their subscriptions (assuming that they’re not “locked in”). Eventually the market might punish the company– but at what cost to the customers?
Neither government bureaucracies nor private “for profit” enterprises are perfect mechanisms.
In the case of fire protection, I’ll trade-off some inefficiencies inherent in indirect control via the ballot. Otherwise, you’re at the mercy of a company whose primary concern is profitability followed distantly by fear that a certain number of customers will change fire protection providers and impact profitability.
If someone let’s his car insurance lapse and has a wreck, should the taxpayers send out a municipal wrecker and ambulance, and take it to a municipal garage for repair? Of course not.
It is so tiresome to here specious objections raised by people who are unfamiliar with the answers provided by history.
If your neighbor does not pay for fire insurance, and wants the fire company to save his house, or if they have to fight his fire in order to save his neighbors’ houses, then he should be liable for the bill. That bill can be attached to his property as a mechanics lien.
Lee is an economist, engineer, works on fingerprint recognition, volunteers at schools, and was a CAPTAIN of a volunteer fire department…impressive.
And I still don’t claim that teachers have no right to comment on economics, engineering, volunteering, fire fighting or other things about which they may know very little.
Neither do I claim you have no right to comment on education about which you may know very little.
Oh, but you DID say that all of us needed to teach for years in order to comment on public schools.
Merely having attended public schools, being a parent of students, paying taxes and having more college education than the average teacher are not enough to permit our challenging the socialist status quo.
Have you now softened your attitude?
Are you ready to apologize?
Oh, but you DID say that all of us needed to teach for years in order to comment on public schools. – Lee
Cut and paste where I posted this statement Lee. I copy and paste your statements for all to see. I even include the time and date.
For example:
Private schools with tax-paid vouchers should be accountable to the government…
Posted by: Lee | Sep 6, 2006 6:33:26 PM
Be a man. Admit you said it many times and post one yourself, instead of playing dishonest games and asking for pastes from threads that already scrolled off.
Or recant, and apologize.
Jury awards teacher $307,000 in harassment suit
The Associated Press
Posted on Thu, Sep. 07, 2006
CHARLESTON — A federal jury awarded a former Charleston County middle school teacher who is white $307,000 damages in deciding she was racially harassed while teaching at a PREDOMINANTLY BLACK SCHOOL.
Elizabeth Kandrac sued in 2004 claiming she was verbally abused almost daily at Brentwood Middle School in North Charleston. She left after less than a year when her bike tires were slashed.
Her suit against the Charleston County School District claimed racial discrimination and harassment, breach of contract and retaliation.
Good night Lee. God loves you.
I’m doing his work here, for sure.
You may be. If so, buenes suerte.
That reminds me to ask you for a third time,
do you favor denying education to illegal aliens and the children of illegal aliens?
Be a man.
Lee, “in the service of God,” insults Randy.
Nice.
Lee, what exactly is your point in posting the AP article above?
In your view, does the Charleston County School District purposefully segregate students according to schools?
Mr Hurl, read it again, especially the part about the school being mostly black. I’ll bet you, like I bet Randy, that I can find some all-black classes there. Randy says they don’t exist. Want to bet? How about $100 for every segregated class I find?
Cut and pasted in it’s entirety from the Monitor thread:
Randy laughs off the racial segregation in public schools, as if it doesn’t exist. Why don’t the districts publish the racial composition of the individual home rooms? Because many of them are all black, while others are predominately white.
We parents and PTO members notice things like that.
Posted by: Lee | Sep 3, 2006 2:22:06 PM
homerooms?!?!
I’ll take you up on a bet. Use my school or your wife’s. I bet that more HOMEROOMS are within 5% of the school ratio of white to minority than there are homerooms which are “95-100%” homogeneous as you claim.
You can donate the money you’ll pay me to Oliver Gospel Mission.
Now Slippery Randy tries to change from denying there are any segregated classrooms, to betting that there are less than 50% segregated.
So we have his tacit admission that public schools offer no more “diversity” than private schools.
I guess that’s as close as he’ll come to admitting he was wrong, spoke out of ignorance, tried to bluff, and was caught.
Lee,
classes are determined by student selection. IF you were actually a parent and IF you were actually married to a teacher, you would know this. You have NO evidence from these sources. I am very suspicious about these claims.
You are also changing your position from HOMEROOMS to classes in general – also suspicious.
Why would you make up these disturbing charges?
Of course, the whole diversity issue is just another red herring anyway. The troll may not believe very many things but he does believe religiously in diverting attention from the real issue – the need for school choice to rescue kids from the failed public school system. To prevent that threat to his own job, he will mangle any quote, ignore any question, fail to back up any assertion, and throw out red herrings by the barrel. Anything will do to divert attention because his main goal is to disrupt discussion and force attention away from the painfully obvious public school shortcomings.
Make wild accusations and post fake and mangled “quotes” over and over? But of course. Instead of a real discussion, he believes in making people defend and back up “quotes” they never made in the context he alleges. Talk about diversity in private schools? Naturally, just as long as we don’t talk about poor SAT scores in public schools. Accuse school choice proponents of racism? Hey, better that than talk about all those remedial classes college freshmen have to take to correct the educational malpractice of the public schools. Demand a school choice plan that will solve all the school problems that the educracy has been screwing up for decades? Why not? Just because the educrats can’t solve any problems doesn’t mean the school choice guys shouldn’t solve all the problems.
Lex, the points you make are mere “fish in a barrel”. I simply cut and paste here to contradict you:
You claim private schools are a solution but the elementary and middle schools, on 5 out of 8 measures, are above the national median.
You suggest private schools can operate more efficiently, yet compare your public school data with the money you pay at your daughter’s private school:
Just because the educrats can’t solve any problems doesn’t mean the school choice guys shouldn’t solve all the problems.
Posted by: LexWolf | Sep 8, 2006 11:57:18 PM Calculator thread
Self-identified troll [sic] Randy Ewart,
You really need to read for comprehension. And read the actual report I linked to. The reading scores on the NAEP are NOT at average. The only average scores are in Math. The other six scores are distinctly below average, up to 8 points (guess your math isn’t all that hot either).
Posted by: LexWolf | Sep 4, 2006 9:08:46 PM
In 2005:
*only 15 states have a higher 4th grade math score
*only 11 states have a higher 8th grade math score
*SC was higher than or on par with 15 states on the 4th grade reading
*SC was higher than or on par with 16 states on the 8th grade reading
*22 states had a higher 4th grade science score
*23 states had a higher 8th grade science score
*26 states had a higher 4th grade writing score
*22 states had a higher 8th grade writing score
SC was higher than the national median on 5 out of 8.
FUNDING
South Carolina Average Spending Per Pupil = $7,776
National Rank = 30
National Average Spending Per Pupil = $8,041
Posted by: LexWolf | Sep 4, 2006 9:08:46 PM
Heathwood Hall annual tution ~ 12k
Stay down Rocky.
Wonder what the troll’s point is supposed to be with this jumbled mess he threw up there.
Instead of comparing HH tuition to public school spending, he should justify the fact that our PS spending is 30th in the country yet we are 49th or 50th in high school student performance by most metrics. Why can’t the educrats here in this state give us full value for our tax money??
I’m also at a loss as to why he just can’t seem to get it in his head that it doesn’t matter one whit that kids are in or close to the middle of the field on the 4th and 8th holes if they wind up dead last in the end. If anything this makes the failures of high school teachers (like the troll, allegedly) even more damning. They’ve been dropping the ball big time!
If anything this makes the failures of high school teachers (like the troll, allegedly) even more damning. They’ve been dropping the ball big time! – Lex
Classy post for a grown up.
So you admit that the middle and elementary schools are not in need of a “solution”. Good. We’ve whittled down your “plan” to vouchers for high schools only.
Instead of comparing HH tuition to public school spending – Lex
It was you who suggested private schools would be “more efficient”. I guess you are back tracking on this issue as well.
To summarize:
Lex suggested all SC schools are terrible, private schools would be the solution, and would do this more efficiently.
Now Lex admits it’s only high schools in need of a solution because the SC elementary and middle schools are higher than most other states, but atleast they don’t spend as much as the private schools.
Lex, that’s quite a change of heart – better late than never.
And so once again the troll is concocting words to put in other posters’ mouths!
For the record:
SC’s middle and elementary schools are not in good shape. An average score in just one subject in just one year by no means could lead to that conclusion. The scores in the other 3 subjects are still well below average. When the Math scores next year show that our kids are once again below average there as well the troll will undoubtedly pontificate about the “severe shortcomings” of the NAEP tests. In any case, we certainly shouldn’t be satisfied with our still-below-average performance on the NAEP. Given the gross malpractice of our high schools we should strive to be at least 20 or 30 points above average for 4th and 8th grade so that by the time the troll and his compadres get done with our kids they will at least be at the average for HS.
The troll seems to have delusions of grandeur. HH is hardly comparable to his school. In fact, we could say that HH is the big Mercedes 600 compared to his Honda Civic. For the money taxpayers spend on that Civic, we could easily get at least a midsized BMW from a private school.
Lex “admits” none of what the troll claims I’m “admitting”. I have corrected him on that numerous times but I guess he’d rather mangle his “quotes” and misrepresent other posters than to be honest.
The troll’s mendacious posts are the height of incivility and disrespect!
HH is the big Mercedes 600 compared to his Honda Civic
Oh, my butt. Talk about arrogant delusions of grandeur.
Sounds like the coach of Mississippi State, patsy of the SEC, lording over Grambling St.
Nothing like selecting students specifically because they’re more academically apt than average and then spending twice the money on each with much superior facilities and less than half the number of students to teachers to give Lex a swelled head.
SC’s middle and elementary schools are not in good shape. An average score in just one subject in just one year by no means could lead to that conclusion. The scores in the other 3 subjects are still well below average. – Lex
SC is ABOVE the NATIONAL median on 5 out of 8 tests and you suggest it’s just “one test”. I’m using the SAME source you are – the NCES from which you pull the mean scores.
You see Lex, the mean is nonresistant to outliers so it can be artificially pulled up because some states have very high scores. We may be below the mean, but still above most other states. This is why the MEDIAN price for homes is used, not the mean – to provide an accurate picture.
Our elementary and middle schools are in very good shape yet you suggest we need a “solution” for them and this solution is private schools. I proved you WRONG!
You also suggest they would be run more efficiently, but YOUR OWN DATA shows that Heathwood spends more than 4k a year than public schools. I proved you WRONG!
This all comes from YOUR own sources.
This reminds me of a possum that stands in the middle of the road waiting to be hit, but blames the car. Of course, the possum wouldn’t stoop to calling someone names like a child.
LINKS!
HH is run far more efficiently than public schools. If the educrats ran HH, tuition would probably run around $25K a year and the school ‘s performance would drop drastically at the same time.
Despite claiming to be a math teacher, the troll clearly doesn’t understand math all that well. There are proper uses for the median as well as for the mean. This is a case where the mean is appropriate.
He understands it well enough to avoid discusing any numerical facts relating to education… such as:
* $12,000 cost per pupil in public schools
* 20 to 35% of college freshmen needed remediation in high school subjects. Why were they admitted to college?
* 50% dropout rates in some school districts
* 70% of black children are poor because they are born out of wedlock, with no father, and often to a teenage dropout mother.
* As many as 58% of public schools still racially segregated in some states (Northern ones).
* 22,000,000 illegal aliens, 85% of them from Mexico, filling up our schools with freeloaders who pull down average test scores and steal resources from citizen students.
HH is run far more efficiently than public schools. If the educrats ran HH, tuition would probably run around $25K a year – Lex
LOL, yes ignore the fact that HH costs almost 50% more than a public school to run and come up with some thought experiment about what you think would happen. You said it yourself “data doesn’t lie”. Boy, that came back to bite you, eh?
Despite claiming to be a math teacher, the troll clearly doesn’t understand math all that well. There are proper uses for the median as well as for the mean. This is a case where the mean is appropriate. – Lex
LOL, yes, the fact that we score higher than most states in 5 out of 8 areas is not important. Funny you want a link for this when it was YOUR OWN SOURCE. You used the same source so you know where it is.
Lex, when you resort to name calling like this, it’s clear you have given up on the substance of your “plan”. You call me names, I blast your “plan” with facts – sometimes your own facts, lol.
INTERESTING! Lex and Lee contradict each other again.
FUNDING
South Carolina Average Spending Per Pupil = $7,776
National Rank = 30
National Average Spending Per Pupil = $8,041
Posted by: LexWolf | Sep 4, 2006 9:08:46 PM
* $12,000 cost per pupil in public schools
Posted by: Lee | Sep 9, 2006 8:12:11 PM
Previous contradictions:
Lee: “96.8% of crime committed by illegal aliens” and Lex, in reference to this post, stated that he agreed with Lee except for the 96.8% figure
Lex on his “plan”: let private choice solve the problems with parents holding the schools accountable; Lee in reference to their “plan”: “private schools would be held accountable by the government”
“You said it yourself “data doesn’t lie”. Boy, that came back to bite you, eh?”
Heh. Data indeed don’t lie but trolls with a pro-plantation agenda do. They will claim that “the data” say so-and-so even while the data say no such thing and in fact usually say the opposite.
One thing is abundantly clear to anyone by now: the troll has absolutely zero interest in any discussions about real school reform. He will disrupt those discussions by any means possible, even if it means 20 times of dragging out 2-month-old mangled “quotes” from threads about totally different topics. Anything at all will do in the troll’s opinion, as long as it prevents people from having a real discussion about the truly sorry state of our public schools.
Why can’t the SCEA send us an intelligent opponent willing and able to debate in good faith? The troll certainly is neither.
Let’s review:
Lex claimed “SC schools are terrible” and used the NAEP 4th and 8th grade reports to bolster his claim. Then he claims that private schools are the solution.
Randy pointed out that in 5 out of 8 NAEP tests (from the same source Lex used), SC 4th and 8th graders scored higher than most other states.
Lex replied “it’s not where you start, but where you finish” explaining that the high schools are bad.
Randy points out that because Lex agrees that the problem is not at the elementary and middle school levels, then there’s no need for a solution for these schools.
Lex changes from choice as a “solution” to “parents should always have a choice”.
Randy points out that if the middle and elementary schools are not in need of private schools “solutions” then Lex has changed his original assertion that SC schools (at all levels) are “terrible” and private schools are the “solution”.
Lex also suggested that private schools would be more efficient, but surprisingly admits he “pays alot” to send his daughter to HH (12k/year) AND he posts that SC spends less than 8k/year.
Randy points out this contradiction.
Lex stated HH is as diverse as public schools.
Randy points out 25% of HH students get subsidies to pay the 12k tuition while 25% of Flora students get subsidies to pay for LUNCH!
What part of this do you contend is false?
the truly sorry state of our public schools. – Lex
This is not a mangled quote, this is cut and pasted from your last post.
On 5 out of 8 tests, SC middle and elementary schools scored above most other states. FACTS from your own source.
Lex, I am blasting holes in your “plan” with your own quotes and your own sources of data. How can you complain?
You don’t think the dropout rate of our schools indicates “a sorry state”?
To get a true picture of the effectiveness of public education, the SAT and PACT should be administered to every dropout as they leave, rather than leaving them out of the average schools.
Yes, both the drop out rate and SAT scores are indication of problems.
The issue here is the Lex-Lee voucher plan which was originally to be a “solution” for ALL schools and these private schools were to be “held accountable by parents”.
NOW, it’s only high schools that need the “solution” and according to you Lee, these private schools are to be held accountable by the “government”.
You both changed your “plan”!!!!
Any school getting taxpayer money needs to be accountable. We have named several ways in which private schools are more accountable than government schools.
The ideal is to have a totally free market school system, where everyone values education, and wants to pay a fair price for it, and applies themselves to learning – unlike the system now where most people don’t value their handouts, don’t care what it costs someone else, and have to be force to attend and pay for it by the threat of armed police.
We have named several ways in which private schools are more accountable than government schools. – Lee
the private schools would be held accountable to the government – Lee
What, the troll sees some sort of “contradiction” there? In today’s world, everything is accountable to the government in some way or another. The difference is that private schools are directly, and thus far more, accountable to parents. In contrast, public schools’ accountability to parents is slim to none.
Logic is not a skill of most apologists for mediocrity, Lex.
You give them 4 dots on the corners of a square to connect, and they will draw anything but a square.
Very good, Lex has changed ANOTHER aspect of his plan.
Before Randy pointed out the error of his ways, Lex’s position was this:
1) All SC schools are terrible
2) Complete private school choice is the “solution”.
3) These private schools will be held accountable by parents.
Now, after Randy blew huge holes in his “plan”, Lex’s position is this:
1)SC HIGH schools are terrible.
2) Private school choice for middle and elementary schools should be available because parents should always have choice.
3) These private schools will be held accountable by government.
That’s what we in the education business call monitor and adjust.
It’s too bad you never took a course in basic logic, Randy. You are embarassing yourself.
I really wish the troll would stop his constant misrepresentations, misquotes and mischaracterizations. Otherwise we might start posting about his “plan” which is basically this:
1. We know our schools are at the bottom in the country, or maybe one or two spots above sometimes. But that’s OK because they are at the average in one subject in the 4th and 8th grades in one out of four years. Yippee, we actually made it to the average in something finally so we can just rest on our laurels. Never mind that we always bring up the rear at the end of the race.
2. Parents are not happy with our dysfunctional schools? Too bad – don’t they know schools are organized to protect and enhance educrats’ jobs instead of actually teaching our kids? How dare they demand that we actually teach their kids!
3. Parents want choice and competition? Bah humbug! Just look at the rest of our economy. Those things have never worked anywhere. Besides, who ever heard of being allowed to buy any car except a Chevy, and why would people even want to shop anywhere except Target? The car board and the discount store board have already made those decisions for them. If parents don’t like those decisions, let them talk to the school board, or even run for a seat on the school board. Otherwise, they can go pound sand because we educrats get paid whether we teach kids or not.
4. Besides, people can always spend their own money to buy the education for their kid that we are too lazy and incompetent to provide. Of course, they will still have to pay for the public school education their kids aren’t getting.
But Randy says it’s not our money. It all belongs to the government, and they just let us keep a little so we have some incentive to keep working and filling the trough for them.
Resorting to calling someone a “troll” indicates that you don’t have a substantive argument…and indicates a distinct lack of maturity. Does your daughter call other kids at school names? If so, I guess you tell the teachers that it’s ok.
Once again, I’ll beat this dead dog of an argument you keep pushing.
because they are at the average in one subject in the 4th and 8th grades in one out of four years.
Shame you are not at my public school, you’d understand how mean and median work. SC is ABOVE the median on 5 out of 8 tests for middle and elementary schools. Interpretation: SC ranks higher than MOST states in MOST categories. I’d love to see how you spin this into bottom of the country.
Parents are not happy with our dysfunctional schools?
Some parents? Most parents? This is more of that slippery, muddy water positioning Lex takes. LINK!
Parents want choice and competition? Bah humbug! Just look at the rest of our economy.
LOL, parents are so insistent on private school choice, they have passed it in how many states? Oh ya, you blame teachers for controlling the country and preventing the massive national push for private school choice.
And the diversity and money spent? Heathwood spends 12k/pupil, 25% get subsidies to pay for tution, and 85% of private students are white. Public schools spend less than 8k/pupil, 65% are white, and 25% of students at schools like Flora get subsidies to pay for LUNCH!
Shooting your “plan” down is easier than shooting fish in a barrel.
“SC is ABOVE the median on 5 out of 8 tests for middle and elementary schools. Interpretation: SC ranks higher than MOST states in MOST categories. I’d love to see how you spin this into bottom of the country.”
LINKS! That means a real link for each of those categories, not just some wild claims from you.
“Some parents? Most parents? This is more of that slippery, muddy water positioning Lex takes. LINK!”
Most parents. We’ll see exactly how many on Nov 7th when Karen Floyd beats the educrats’ candidate.
How about answering my other points above?
Randy, you’re understating the cost of educating an HH Highlander.
HH tuition doesn’t cover the entire cost as evidenced by the following quote:
The Annual Fund is the cornerstone of giving for our school, helping to cover the 15-20% of operating expenses not covered by tuition. Donors have the satisfaction of knowing that their contributions provide daily support that touches all students, including such things as computers, art supplies, professional development for faculty and athletic equipment.
HH charges $12,875 per high school student. Then adds $235 for a technology fee. I couldn’t find a transportation fee (and Lexie declines to provide it). I’m pretty sure that I’ve seen the HH Lexus bus on the road, however.
Here’s the tally:
[(12,875) (1.2)] + 235 = $15,685
59% of Illinois public schools are still racially segregated. Where’s the diversity?
Score one for RTH. Lee counters with some vague reference to a midwest state.
It’s only vague to those who lack the courage to post the details I posted about Illinois having 59% of its schools racially segregated. These people are also too afraid to post the racial composition of their own schools, yet persist in their racist smears of private schools, which are more integrated.
As vague as someone who is a “economist” “fire captain” “engineer” “school hall monitor” “fingerprint analyst” and “WIS reporter” as well as supposedly being married to a teacher etc.
What about that article on Illinois public school segregation did you not understand?
Just give us the raw numbers of the racial composition of the classes in your school, and we’ll perform the calculations for you, if that is what is holding you up.
I don’t understand how you came up with that number and what you propose that it means.
Of course, this is the same source that produced “96.8% of all crime is committed by illegal aliens” which I take it from your recent posts are sponsored by the democrats who want unbridled child pornography.
Maybe you figured that out when you walked down some hallways somewhere.
You don’t have any facts of your own and are afraid to discuss the facts we provide. What can you do, except sputter insults?
Hing: You aren’t very good with fractions and percentages, so you should leave those alone.
Racial Segregation in Modern-Day Public Schools
Charles T. Clotfelter
Duke University
2003
http://trinity.aas.duke.edu/~jvigdor/moderndayseg_102303.pdf#search=%22classroom%20segregation%20in%20modern%20public%20schools%22
The 96.8% rate is a fact? LOL, I’d love to see you post anything that comes within miles of supporting that whacky “fact”. Maybe you’d be able to convince Lex as well. He called you out on it as well.
You could start by reading the Duke University study on racism in public schools.
You could start by posting the racial composition of your own public school, if you think it will back up your assertion that “public schools over more diversity than private schools”.
So no link for the whacky 96.8% rate? Figures.
You made it up, so of course you have no link.
Why are you so determined to defend the criminals from Mexico? Why are you afraid to confront the real data about the crime wave crossing the Rio Grande into America? Is it another case of white “liberals” racism giving a free pass to non-white crime?
High Crime Rates in Mexico
1. ^ Mexico City crime rate rises sharply. AP/Lubbock Avalanche-Journal (1997, December 15).
2. ^ Jordan, Mary. “In Mexico, Rape is an Unpunished Crime”, The Washington Post, 2002, June 30.
3. ^ Orrenias, Pia M. and Coronado, Roberto (May/June 2003). “Falling Crime and Rising Border Enforcement: Is There a Connection?”. Southwest Economy.
4. ^ a b Country profile – Mexico. United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Retrieved on 2006-06-08.
5. ^ Contreras, Joseph. “Losing the Battle: A sharp spike in drug-related violence has some analysts worrying about the ‘Colombianization’ of Mexico”, Newsweek International.
6. ^ Instituto Nacional de Estadística, Geografía e Informática (2002). Encuesta Nacional de Adicciones 2002.
7. ^ Bailey, John, Ph.D. (2000-2002). “The Mexico Project”. Center for Latin American Studies, Georgetown University. Retrieved on 2006-06-05.
8. ^ Mexico Police and Law Enforcement Organizations. Photius.
9. ^ Police Drug Corruption. Drugwar.com.
10. ^ a b c Civil and Political Rights: Independence of the Judiciary, Administration of Justice, and Impunity. U.N. Commission on Human Rights.
11. ^ a b Hayward, Susana, “Mexican journalists seek justice in deaths of colleagues”, Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service, September 7, 2004.
12. ^ Cevallos, Diego, “WORLD PRESS FREEDOM DAY-MEXICO: 5 YEARS, 15 JOURNALISTS KILLED”, IPS – Inter Press Service/Global Information Network, May 2, 2006.
13. ^ “The very odd couple, Can Rudolph Giuliani make Mexico city safer?”, The Economist, 2002, October 17.
14. ^ a b Preston, Julia. “State Department Warns of ‘Critical Levels’ of Crime in Mexico”, The New York Times, 1998, May 1.
15. ^ Tips for Travelers to Mexico. U.S. Department of State.
16. ^ a b Sánchez, Marcela – host. “Leaders of the Americas, Live online chat with Mexican President Vicente Fox”, The Washington Post, 2001, February 15.
17. ^ “Demonstrations against crime surge spread all over Latin America”, Pravda, 2004, June 24.
18. ^ LaGesse, David. “Mexico to allow extradition to U.S.”, The Press Enterprise (Riverside, Ca.), 1996, March 29.
19. ^ Talhelm, Jennifer. “State Department defends U.S. and Mexico crime-fighting on border”, San Diego Union-Tribune.
20. ^ Texas Attorney General – Press release archives.
21. ^ Murder money & Mexico. PBS.
22. ^ “Giuliani targets Mexico crime wave”, BBC, 2003, January 14.
23. ^ “Huge march against crime wave”, China Daily, 2004, June 28.
24. ^ “Mexico deploys federal forces against organized crime along border”, KRISTV.COM, 2005, June 13.
LOL, you spent alot of time on that post?
Atleast you are trying to disown your bogus quote – a step in the right direction.
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