Following on that last post, it might be useful to read the piece that ran alongside Mr. Soros’ screed in the WSJ today. I like it because it seems a reasonable attempt to help folks realize — as I believe the Soros and Will pieces did — how meaningless "left" and "right" are in dealing with the world as it is today.
Personally, I’m not sure whether I’m a 1942ist or a 1938ist, but I worry that the author may be right about 1914.
As I did on the last post, I’m adding an addendum after it was brought to my attention that folks had trouble reading the WSJ pieces. The one to which I refer here was by Ross Douthat, an associate editor at Atlantic Monthly. Here is the start of it:
Foreign-policy debates are usually easy to follow: Liberals battle
conservatives, realists feud with idealists, doves vie with hawks. But
well into the second Bush term, traditional categories are in a state
of collapse. On issue after issue, the Republicans and Democrats are
divided against themselves, and every pundit seems determined to play
George Kennan and found an intellectual party of one. We suffer from a
surfeit of baffling labels — "progressive realism," "realistic
Wilsonianism," "progressive internationalism," "democratic globalism"
— that require a scorecard to keep straight. But perhaps there’s a
simpler way. For the moment at least, where you line up on any
foreign-policy question has less to do with whether you’re Republican
or Democrat, isolationist or internationalist — and more to do with
what year you think it is.
And here are the years to which he refers:
- 1942 — "To the 1942ist, Iraq is Europe and the Pacific rolled into one, Saddam
and Zarqawi are the Hitlers and Tojos of our era, suicide-bombers are
the equivalent of kamikazes — and George Bush is Churchill, or maybe
Truman. The most prominent exponent of 1942ism is Mr. Bush himself." - 1938 — "Iran’s march toward nuclear power is the equivalent of Hitler’s 1930s
brinkmanship. While most ’38ists still support the decision to invade
Iraq, they increasingly see that struggle as the prelude to a broader
regional conflict, and worry that we’re engaged in Munich-esque
appeasement. This camp’s leading spokesmen include Michael Ledeen, Bill
Kristol and Newt Gingrich." - 1948 — "Most of the liberal ex-’42ists have joined up with the "1948ists," who
share the ’42ist and ’38ist view of the war on terror as a major
generational challenge, but insist that we should think about it in
terms of Cold War-style containment and multilateralism, not Iraq-style
pre-emption. 1948ism is a broad church: It includes politicians who
still technically support the Iraq war (but not really), pundits who
opposed it from the beginning, chastened liberal hawks like Peter
Beinart and chastened neocons like Francis Fukuyama." - 1972 — "’72ism has few mainstream politicians behind it, but a great many
Americans, and it holds that George Bush is Nixon, Iraq is Vietnam, and
that any attack on Iran or Syria would be equivalent to bombing
Cambodia…. ’72ism is the
worldview of Michael Moore, the makers of "Syriana," and the editors of
the Nation — and its power is growing." - 1919 — "For ’19ists, Mr. Bush is Woodrow Wilson, a feckless idealist bent on
sacrificing U.S. interests and global stability on the altar of
messianic liberalism. 1919ism was marginal three years ago, confined to
figures like Pat Buchanan who (like the ’72ists) saw Zionist
fingerprints all over U.S. foreign policy. But of late, many
traditional conservatives have migrated in this direction, including
William F. Buckley and George Will."
Finally, he suggested that all of them may be missing the scariest possibility of all — that this is 1914:
A few voices have spoken up of late for the most disquieting
possibility of all. This possibility lacks heroes and villains
(Bush/Wilson, Ahmadinejad/Hitler) and obvious lessons (impeach Bush,
stay the course in Iraq). But as our crisis deepens, it’s worth
considering 1914ism, and with it the possibility that all of us,
whatever year we think it is, are poised on the edge of an abyss that
nobody saw coming.
For my part, I think it’s 2006. But what do I know?
Related Posts
There’s an old joke (I think the Brits started it) from about 1920: “Archduke Found Alive! War Fought by Mistake!” All analogies are flawed, but there are certain parallels between today and 1914: One established superpower being challenged by a rising superpower (Britain and Germany then; U.S. and China now); a tinderbox region of the world alive with ethnic hostilities (Balkans then, Middle East now); an act of provocation for which the reprisal went awry (assassination of Franz Ferdinand then, abduction and killing of Israeli soldiers now). I hope we have wiser leadership now than the world had then.
The State is way over its head discussing national and international affairs.
Get back to covering South Carolina and Columbia. You could start with demanding copies of the bids, contracts, and meetings related to the boondoggle of Riverwalk.
I think of you as a 1095ist, Mr. W.
I see in the latest news the punk son of Assad in Syria, and the smartmouthed punk president (what a joke) of Iran are both mouthing off like tough guys about how Hezbollah has won and they will set the terms from this point on. I say let’s give them some Jimmy Cagney (You dirty rat, You dirty rat, you) to think about. They sit un-attacked while Israel receives Iranian missiles shipped via Syria. I hope the Jews light up Damascus as a preliminary fireworks and then Iran as the grand finale. This punk thuggery has to be stopped or it will be coming to an American city near you soon enough. There is no negotiation with people like this. People who prefer to die rather than leave peacably beside a neighbor. Let’s give them what they want.
Replace “leave” with “live” above.
How about a 1065ist — the Normans are coming! The Normans are coming!
I have been heard to complain that the Protestant Reformation and the splitting of the Roman Empire were huge mistakes that have done nothing but cause centuries of pain and misunderstanding — not to mention (since Lee wants to talk about South Carolina) the colossal, disastrous wrong turn our state took in 1860.
But there’s not a thing I can do about any of that, and we just have to deal with the world as it is now as a result of those actions — sort of the way people need to stop going on about mistakes and lies and refighting past elections and yadda-yadda and accept that this nation now has a commitment in Iraq that it can’t walk away from.
“this nation now has a commitment in Iraq that it can’t walk away from.”
Yeah it can.
Once again, Warthen is unable to mount arguments in support of his views, so he takes the coward’s way out – he presumes the correctness of his views and dishonestly conflates them with concern for America. Once again, to Warthen, the question isn’t whether the actions “we” are taking are right or wrong, the question is whether “we” (that is, people other than Warthen) exhibit sufficient “resolve” to continue paying the costs of “our” enterprise.
Bartholomew looked the King square in the eye.
“You may be a mighty king,” he said. “But you’re sitting in oobleck up to your chin. And so is everyone else in your land. And if you won’t even say you’re sorry, YOU’RE NO SORT OF A KING AT ALL!”
— Dr. Seuss
You are asking for major foreign policy decisions to be made by people who simply do not know enough of the facts. Going to war is a decision that cannot (should not) be made without a broad range of the facts, and I would wager that no one on this blog has that kind of perspective, no matter how smart they think they are. Whether the federal government with all the information from its intelligence agencies and allies abroad has it, is another question. I won’t go there, because I don’t know.
As an evangelical Christian, I cannot give easy support to war, nor enlist God’s name in some kind of new “Crusade” against some kind of perceived Muslim menace. We must be smart, but that does not mean that we have to be trigger-happy. Many, many Muslims would join in with us if we go about this the right way. They are people, too. I grew up with my parents hosting Iranian friends in our home on a regular basis. Sometimes I visit a mosque here in the city. These people can be our friends, or at least many of them can be, and want to be.
And Brad, this is a very side point, I realize (but you know if you give me an inch, I’ll take a mile!) but spirituality must always be able to break out beyond its boundaries, if it is going to be healthy at all. Human nature being what it is, the religious authorities generally have an interest in keeping the religion of the populace at the required status quo, but God’s people have to go beyond that. The Protestant Reformation was long overdue; of course, it brought with it eventually the Enlightenment with its “pursuit of happiness”, which many today think is Christian (it is not), but at least we got the Bible in the hands of the people. Whether they read it or not, is another question, of course.
From my religious training I recall the words of a Pope. “Luther, that pig, rots in hell” I accept that on faith.
It’s 1972, baby!
A second term President fast on his way to a shameful departure driven by arrogance and dirty tricks….
I was eleven years old. An impressionable age. I remember seeing the photo of the naked Vietnamese girl described on Wikipedia as:
— June 8 1972 – Phan Thị Kim Phúc, center
— left, running down a road near Trang
— Bang after an ARVN napalm chemical
— attack in the Vietnam War.
I clearly remember thinking at that time that I didn’t want to ever have anything to do with war. Still feel the same way…
Take a look at the events of 1972 at:
Wikipedia 1972
It’s interesting to see how much has changed and as well as how little.
Oh, so perhaps the year is 1100, five years after the call to Christendom to join in the first Crusade. And Brad (or Dave) is Urban II?
Sorry, KC, I just realized you had already grabbed the 1095 date.
Since Brad knows I am “conflicted,” maybe we should also keep in mind the Armenian massacre, and the year is 1915. But then the question is, how do we respond. By another massacre? Dave says yes, I say no.
Here is an excerpt from a recent article in FrontPage magazine. None other than Winston Churchill pegged the monstrosity we are dealing with re: Islam. Who wants to step up and say that Churchill was wrongheaded?
*****************************************
Winston Churchill, who encountered the business end of the scimitar in the Sudan as a young cavalry officer, observed in his 1899 book “The River War”: “Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities. Thousands become brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. … Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step.”
Sound familiar?
As Loren Gunther points out in Canada’s National Post, it’s not just the suicide bombers. It’s not just the Nazi-clones of Hezbollah and Hamas. It’s not just fascist Syria and fundamentalist Iran. It’s not just the terrorists planting bombs and cutting off the heads of hostages in Iraq.
It’s the mullahs and imams preaching hatred. It’s the businessmen raising funds for jihad. It’s the Arab media inculcating anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism 24/7. It’s public opinion throughout the Muslim world (which fluctuates between paranoia and — paranoia) that believes the effort to establish democracy in Iraq is a war on Islam.
And it’s the apologists for holy war who equate Israel’s fight for survival and the West’s fight for civilization in Iraq with jihadists plotting to blow up 10 airliners.
This is terrorism’s infrastructure. Its auxiliaries number not in the hundreds, or the millions, but the hundreds of millions.
Here’s the link to the Don Feder article.
Visit Muslims Behaving Badly!
Brad, our commitment in Iraq is really a commitment for the whole world as I see it. If we were to depart Iraq in any other condition other than total victory over the terrorists, well, just look at Hezbollah’s claims of victory after they retreated and destroyed by the Israelis. Iran would soon own Iraq and then what would stop them from taking down Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar, and other nation states? Their goal is one Islamic nation and then the action would shift to Europe. The rotting societies of Europe would be easy prey for the Islamic waves. Especially given the resident Muslims in Europe who would welcome the onslaught from the East.
So, it comes down to fight them now or fight them later. The appeasers of course in our midst always want later. But the enemy strengthens as we appease. So maybe this is 1938 again.
Herb, your Islamic friends were very nice to you I am sure, but you are and remain an infidel to them. And we all know what the Koran says to do to infidels.
Mary is absolutely right, we can and should walk away from Iraq. We’re not helping anyone or anybody. I guess that makes me a 1972ist.
Dave, are you really talking about “tough talking” brats and spoiled leaders kids, only to turn around and say let’s “light up Damascus”. Dude, you are the most awful kind of evil hypoocrite. I have more respect for those leaders than you because at least when they say what they say, they put themselves at risk of being killed by our, and other governments. You, on the other hand, are merely an overweight coward typing on a blog anonomously.
To argue a course of action based on what the Bible or the Koran says is the weakest of all appeals. Most intelligent, free-thinking people gave up on sorcery a long time ago. Belief in that nonsense is what got us into most of the messes we’re mired in today. Want to spin straw into gold while you’re at it?
If so, then let’s create an evacuation plan for Iraq immediately. From teaching, I know that you can’t prop a child up forever. As soon as you can, you have to let them create their own confidence by walking on their own.
If Iraq is to be our democratic spawn, then let’s see what the kid can do. No better way to see its first steps than by walking away from it.
If Warthimers truly support democracy in Iraq, then let’s see if it has taken hold. Let’s see if freedom is culturally sound in Iraq by getting the heck out of the way.
If not, then at least admit to what our presence really is — an oil grab and a further attempt to destabilize the Middle East. Admit to our real business there –spinning impressionable, hopeless young men and women into terrorists by our own cynical approach in presenting our dearest beliefs.
Let these countries sort themselves out and grow up to rival America, if you’re really patriots. If you really believe we are “A # 1!!!”, what have you to fear?
If we can transmute Russia into the world’s formerly powerful, now pathetic drunken uncle, why can’t we also shine in comparison to any Islamic state?
Let’s test democracy. Let’s get out of Iraq. I bet it’ll work for all sides involved.
Poof! Just like magic.
When an animal has rabies, you put that animal down. No matter what you do to treat the problem, there is no cure. There are no other options.
Watching the news on any channel and watching the islamic militants, I see rabies in full bloom. While all may not have it, all have been exposed.
Observing the scope of the problem, I’m not sure at all how to deal with the Islamic problem. As I’ve posted before, I don’t believe that democracy and islam are in any way compatible. The structure of the Islamic society isn’t about to conform to a true democracy.
I also find it amazing that religions, claiming to be bringers of peace have been the cause of almost all wars.
JMHO
The non-solution of the Democrats, socialists, liberals, and anti-Americans is the same as always – pull our forces out, let the terrorists, socialists, fascists and zealots claim victory, recruit even more young men as killers, and start a new round of terror and genocide on all who oppose them.
The war in Iraq is an infomercial for prospective terrorists. Why is it that you don’t see this? Where is Osama? Why wasn’t HE captured? In the meantime, thank God for 007. At least the Brits can prevent things, unlike the fearmongers in DC.
Did Cheney really say that Ned Lamont will encourage/embolden Al-Queda? Why won’t any of you “defenders of freedom” step up and say how ridiculous that is? The man should be escorted from his office and committed to the nearest sanitorium.
The only zealot who has claimed victory so far, is good ole GW in another of his “Mission Accomplished” moments, claiming that Hezbollah has been defeated. The man loves to get ahead of himself.
I tend to agree with you on this one Preston. This idea that Hezbollah lost in this conflict is far from the truth. The abilitiy to stand up to Israel and inflict the damage and casualties which they did speaks volumns. This changes things and both Israel and the U.S. need to reconize this. Secretly I suspect they know but would never admit it publically.
Put up that disinformation image, only the ignorant will fail to see the change in reality.
Just a matter of being realistic and putting down that pipe.
Infomercial indeed. I can hear the voice-over now:
For only 5 easy payments of $100 billion you can own your very own quagmire! And for a limited time only we’ll throw in this special limited incursion into Afghanastan. But wait, there’s more. If you act fast, we’ll give you an incursion into Lebanon. A $50 billion value, absolutely free. But hurry, this offer won’t last long!
Nice work bud, it’s beyond me that there are people that are actually dialing that 1-800 number to buy this crap.
You, on the other hand, are merely an overweight coward typing on a blog anonomously.
Preston, that’s a great example of civility, I suppose. Even more so, it shows you as the epitome of a chickendove.
Chickendoves are always quick to accuse others of not doing enough in the GWOT. Yet they themselves are not willing to do a thing in their opposition to that GWOT, not even to shut up while better men and women protect their sorry rear ends. Once you chickendoves go over to Iraq or Lebanon or wherever and put yourselves in the path of the suicide bombers or Katyusha rockets you might get some respect for your opinions. Or maybe a bunch of you could book a flight and then tell Osama to blow up the plane.
But why should you take such a risk, you will say? What risk? According to you chickendoves the terrorists are all such nice people who surely wouldn’t harm the people who are so eager to provide them with aid and comfort. Or would they? So, are you feeling lucky – or are you just a chickendove? Go to the Middle East, put your misguided beliefs on the line for 6 months or so. Then come back and tell us how you were mugged by reality – if you’re still alive.
Here’s a powerful article about 3 doves (not chickendoves) who were also mugged by reality and changed their views on the true nature of their enemy:
This war is different
By Ari Shavit
Four Mothers was probably the most influential protest movement in the history of Israel. It was founded immediately after the ‘disaster of the helicopters’ – the collision of two Air Force helicopters carrying soldiers to Lebanon in February 1997, leaving 74 soldiers dead. The movement never amounted to more than a few dozen women (and several men). However, within three years it swept the country and fomented a shift of consciousness that led, ultimately, to Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon in May 2000.
About two weeks after the outbreak of the second Lebanon War, as Katyusha rockets continued to fall across Galilee, and Israel Defense Forces brigades were immersed in slow and bloody fighting in Bint Jbail, three Four Mothers members met for a lengthy morning conversation in a shaded apartment in Kibbutz Ashdot Yaakov Ihud. Zohara Antebi, from Kibbutz Geva, a resident of Kahal and principal of a school in Upper Galilee, was in Four Mothers almost from the start. Bruria Sharon, from Ashdot Yaakov Ihud, joined the movement a few weeks after its creation. Orna Shimoni, also from Ashdot Yaakov Ihud, joined the struggle about half a year later, after losing a son in Lebanon.
Did Nasrallah’s offensive cause the mothers who vanquished the military establishment to engage in soul-searching? Are those who counted the dead of the IDF’s presence in Lebanon now counting the dead of the renewed entry into Lebanon and feeling some sort of responsibility? Do they support the antiwar struggle that is developing tardily in Tel Aviv? Do they have any oppressive doubts now about their burning faith in unilateral action? CLICK ON THE HEADLINE FOR THE REST
A ceasefire at this point is a victory for Hexbollah, and Syria and Iran (their backers).
The Western Christian world is mostly in denial about the reality that millions of Muslims hate us and want to annihilate us and all Asians, too. They do not just want to expel all non-Muslims from the Middle East. They do not just want control of the oil. They want to destroy the West.
The terror campaigns, civil wars, and invasions of weak countries are just a few of their strategies. Another strategy is the silent invasion by immigration into Germany, France, the UK and Scandanavia.
The problem with generalizing is that often the person doing the generaliztion is ignorant of certain facts.
Fact: I spent 8 years in the service, two of which was on riverboats on the Cua Viet River in Vietnam. Another year was off the coast of Vietnam.
Fact: I wasn’t drafted, I volunteered. I saw blood and guts up close, real close, inches close.
Fact: I have without doubt, earned the right to voice my opinions concerning any war and any military action, whether I disagree or agree.
Unlike George, I have all the documentation for my war time experience, INCLUDING the fact that I am a 100% service connected disabled veteran. Apparently being sprayed with Agent Orange wasn’t healthy for our servicemen.
Iraq was wrong, Afghanistan was right. We DID stir up a hornets nest and all the billions we pump into this mess will never result in a terrorist free world.
No matter how you paint it, this is FACT.
I think it’s 2006,and I’m already tired of the twenty-first century.
No offense, VietVet, but your running a gunboat in 1968 tells you nothing about Iraq.
The FACT is that Iraq was training and financing terrorists, including the Sept 11 hijackers, and other plots, before, and ones stopped. We KNOW that. We have the financial records, Saddam’s notes, Saddam on videotape at the terrorist training camps.
We couldn’t permit that to continue, and we couldn’t wait for the next attack, much less for the perfect plan which would convert all the millions of Iraqis to loving America, after 25 years of living behind a Sand Curtain. This isn’t a perfect world. Our only mistake is in not being brutal enough after taking control of the major cities, of trying to restore normal life as we would in America or Europe, far too soon.
Bud, The money we have spent in Iraq is a bargain. Thousands of suicide mass murderers have been sent to Allah. Do you realize what one terrorist incident costs the US and other free nations. The US costs for 9-11 dwarf the Iraq and Afghan spends. You need to add up the costs of all the new TSA employees, rebuilding costs, costs added due to time lost on travel (thats me for one), costs of more security at all nuclear plants, water pumping stations, you name it. I bet this one incident has cost us a trillion dollars nationwide. So lets spend more on Iraq and get it done.
Preston, those of us on the right wont lower ourselves to your kind of personal attacks and incivility. It’s ironic that Brad singled out Lexwolf and Lee for making uncivil comments while the reality is it is the leftists on his blog spewing this type of unnecessary comments. I won’t lower myself to your level to respond in kind. But try to be a little more mature in your comments.
Sure Dave. How many bombs are you going to drop, and how many soldiers are you going to send, because I can assure you that it will never end. There are between 1 billion and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Do you have a billion bombs, Dave?
Everybody dismisses my people on the ground, and I’m not going to talk about them, but I can still assure you that Westerners who have lived/live in the Middle East, and who know the Middle Eastern mindset, pretty much all confirm what I am saying. If we would fight smart, and win people’s minds, we could do a lot better. Soros has it pretty much right.
You will never do what you think you are going to do, unless you go nuclear, in which case life doesn’t really matter for any of us.
Cap, look me in the eye (or in the monitor) and tell me that Matthew 5-7 (“The Sermon on the Mount”) doesn’t describe a person that would be the opposite of any threat to society, terrorist or otherwise. Call it “sorcery” if you want, but I seriously doubt that your evolved human expert without religion has any real moral basis. The problem is not the Bible; the problem is how it is interpreted and applied. Jesus told Peter to put his sword away. We just don’t get it.
I’m not suggesting we make political decisions based on Bible verses, but political decisions have to have some moral basis. What’s yours? But methinks we have been here before . . . .
Actually, Dave, I didn’t single them out; Herb did. I thought his quote was a good one with which to kick off the discussion, as it summarized the problem neatly.
Ironically, I ran across your complaint about that while scrolling down to castigate Preston for having written, “you are the most awful kind of evil hypoocrite.”
That’s the kind of thing that’s about to disappear from this blog. The thing is, it’s so unnecessary. What did that add? Whom did that persuade? Wouldn’t the point have been made more effectively without it? I think so.
And Herb, what about that part where Jesus says if you don’t have a sword, better go get one?
I’m not asking that to be argumentative. I’ve just always been curious about it. What do you make of it?
Brad, You are right, it was Herb who kicked that off. I had forgotten the origin and I do agree, not on censorship per se, but after a warning to a personal attacker, then enforcement is in order. The attack has to be really personal though. Socialist, right wingnut, commie, etc are labels anyone can take. It’s the attacks on family and personal insults that are out of bounds.
Herb, The Muslims may have 1 billion people captive and forcibly enslaved with Islam, but given 6 months of the modern world in a free society, that number will go way down. We all know today that in Saudi, for instance, if you announce you really would prefer Christ, or even to be an atheist, it is a death sentence. So much for the Religion (Not!) of Peace. As a pastor, you should be able to see a cult for what it really is. It is a violence oriented hateful cult built on a ripoff of the Torah by a guy who married a Jewish woman. Come on…
Dave, you folks on the right are so ego centric you simply don’t recognize the very real cultural differences among nations. Many people simply don’t buy into the affluenza monster that we’ve created here in the U.S. The spend, spend, spend philosophy where more and bigger is always better is frankly growing old, even for many Americans. We’re working longer hours and going deeper into debt simply to buy more stuff that ends up in a garage or attic after a couple of weeks never to be seen again. So naturally when we try to impose this wasteful lifestyle on others we meet resistance.
And are we really that free? You can’t purchase marijuana, even for medicinal purposes. Thanks to Brad and the State Newspaper you can’t play a video poker machine in South Carolina. And try to buy a six pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon on Sunday in Red Bank. See how free you are then. It is simply preposterous to think that people in other parts of the world would accept our lifestyle as anything other than a form of Imperialism. And we’re paying a big price for that arrogance in Iraq.
It wouldn’t bother me if you were argumentative, Brad. I just got up tight when people talk about obliterating whole people groups in order to produce some kind of peace. Like using a cannon to deal with a headache, except that millions of lives are at stake.
Your reference is to Luke 22:36-38, which is the only place this saying occurs. The context is definitely that circumstances are going to get very bad for Jesus’ disciples. We know that also because a couple of days later (Easter Sunday) they are in hiding, scared to death. Obviously they could suffer the same fate for the same accusation (fomenting insurrection).
So what do we do with the reference to “buying a sword?” Well, we could take it literally, except that Jesus evidently doesn’t mean it that way. “It is enough” has Semitic parallels (even though the New Testament is written in Greek, it’s thought is generally Hebrew); it is basically a rebuke. In other words, Jesus is saying, “you just don’t get it.”
It would be sort of like my saying to my son, “I’ll kill you if you do that,” because I need to make the point (I always tried to use gentler figures of speech, but obviously don’t always succeed), when he knows good and well not to take it literally.
We know not to take it literally, because nothing, unless there is very good reason for it, should override the general principle of Matt 26:52 or Luke 22:50-51, where the meaning is not in doubt.
There may be some kind of implication in Luke 22:36 for the necessity of state law enforcement but if so, it is very much encrypted, and other parts of the New Testament will have to weigh in on that, which they do. But, as I’m sure you will agree, that really is another topic.
Amen, Bud… we better hope to God/Allah that the Iraqis don’t hear about our hallmark of democracy, the IRS. They’ll be begging for Saddam to come back.
Tangent: I don’t think there is a single rational explanation for the existence of “blue laws”. I’d love to see one that doesn’t reference religion.
Cap, look me in the eye (or in the monitor) and tell me that Matthew 5-7 (“The Sermon on the Mount”) doesn’t describe a person that would be the opposite of any threat to society, terrorist or otherwise.
But methinks we have been here before . . . .
Posted by: Herb | Aug 16, 2006 2:47:23 PM
Herb, we have been here before. I don’t know what you don’t understand about my stance that the OT is a semi-historical assortment of fairytales designed to secure and promote the survival of a savagely patriarchal society.
The NT, on the other hand and in large part due to our charismatic lead (JC to you), is brimming with enlightenment. Of the two, it’s a far more rewarding read…until you get to that tacked on nonsense known as Revelation, that is. Of course, isn’t that the bit that is often recalled to unofficially sanction our presence in the Middle East?
If you don’t think Babybush personally believes that his administation is casting those pesky Muslims down with the Sodomites, then you haven’t spent half as much time as I have listening to the rantings of right-wing evangelicals whose zealous Sunday fervor was inevitably delaying my enjoyment of an impending Carolina Panthers game kickoff.
Herb, you of all people know that the NT and the OT did not come co-packaged originally. In fact, Mr. Warthen brings up a valuable point which I had forgotten.
What exactly did our Best Actor in a Lead Role mean when he gave that commandment?
My overall point is that if you need a book to tell you right from wrong, how to treat your fellow man or how many spears, rocks and bombs you may hurl at those who wear blankets on their heads while you wear a more processed form of cloth on yours, then you have serious problems. If you consider those “heavy decisions”, then you shouldn’t even be allowed to operate the remote for the TV.
I don’t think that makes me particularly enlightened. Common sense should come standard on most models.
I just got up tight when people talk about obliterating whole people groups in order to produce some kind of peace.
Nobody would even be talking about those people, much less obliterating them, if they would simply refrain from trying to bomb or kill us by any means possible. They can do whatever they want in Iran or Saudi Arabia or wherever, for all I care, but once they start coming here and denying us our basic human rights to life, liberty etc., I do have a very severe problem with them.
Nobody, even right wingnuts, wants to go to war with anyone, but if war is thrust upon us in this way, what are we supposed to do? Sorry, offering up another airplane or ten or a skyscraper or maybe a whole city, i.e. turning the other cheek, never worked for me. Especially since they would chop off your head and both cheeks with it if they had a chance.
Herb, you had already answered my question by the time I posted, but I’m not sure I understand the answer. Seemed convoluted, but the fault could lie in my reading comprehension.
Are you saying that Jesus was being verbally ironic with that statement? I guess I can see that possibility as that would be “in character” for him.
Also, I’m tempted to beg your re-take on The Passion of the Christ and how it reflects Mel Gibson’s obvious sense of self-loathing (especially in light of recent events), but I think I’ve stirred the pot enough without deconstructing that “classic.”
I’m not trying ruin anyone’s night with these assertions, either. I just really enjoy posting with and reading the takes of EVERY single one of you. Why else do we come here?
I’m not too proud to admit it. Haughty spirit before a fall and all that…
Hezbollah has committed 150 million dollars to the reconstruction of 15,000 destroyed homes in Lebanon and to rebuild their relatively liberal schools which educate 50,000 students and the 5 public hospitals it operates. They will pay 1 years rent to anyone left homeless. These are acts by the group the NIE/CIA 2004 reported to “have no plans to attack Western targets”. As someone around here once said, they have no agenda but the “killing of civilians”. I can see why we wouldn’t dare consider even talking to these savages-they are subhuman and deserving of a slow painful death.
Fight on armchair warriors, the end is near. The Presidents numbers are down and Fox needs new highlights to boost the ratings. The drums are beating and it is deja-vu all over again. Iraq is so “yesterday”. More killing is on the way. War is peace.
Hezbollah used civilians as shields, by firing rockets from office buildings and using parking garages for meeting, reloading their rocket launchers, and planning their next volleys into civilian populations in Israel.
They intentionally drew Israeli fire into civilian areas, to produce the most damage for their propaganda purposes. They don’t care about rebuilding Lebanon, or they wouldn’t have destroyed it. The amazing thing is how many people are dumb enough to fall for their manipulation.
The amazing thing is how many people are dumb enough to fall for their manipulation.
Posted by: Lee | Aug 17, 2006 5:28:13 AM
And for those of Israel!
Tell us how Israel started this latest battle by giving up land to Lebanon for Hezbollah to control.
The same way homeowners are to blame for tempting robbers with jewelry and silverware.
Brad, what my comment adds is that people cannot make statements like “I see in the latest news the punk son of Assad in Syria, and the smartmouthed punk president (what a joke) of Iran are both mouthing off like tough guys about how Hezbollah has won and they will set the terms from this point on.”
Only to say two sentences later, “I hope the Jews light up Damascus as a preliminary fireworks and then Iran as the grand finale.”
Dave made both of those statements. I did refer to him as an evil hypocrite. In one sentence, he talks about tough talking “punks” acting like “tough guys”. He then comes out with his own “tough guy” talk by talking about “lighting up Damascus”. He is talking about the arbitrary leveling of a city. If that isn’t hypocritical tough talk, I don’t know what is. Also, I belive that it is pure evil to endorse the kind of ridiculous acts Dave proposes.
I stand by my comments concerning Dave. It is necessary to point out the flaws in people’s arguments so that others can see them. If you have a problem with my explanation Brad, please let me know. I think it speaks for itself.
To Dave: Are you overweight? If not, I will refrain from using that again.
Also, you call my comments immature? How do you classify the adolescent machismo comment ” I hope the Jews light up Damascus as a preliminary fireworks and then Iran as the grand finale.” That sounds like a comment a 12 year old would make after watching Rambo III.
Again, am I missing something here? The hypocrisy is thick in here.
Tell us how Israel started this latest battle by giving up land to Lebanon for Hezbollah to control.
Posted by: Lee | Aug 17, 2006 6:15:10 AM
Ah, Lee, if history was only what was considered five mintues ago, you’d be magna cum lately.
In many of your arguments, you never consider the longview, unless, on the very rare occasion, it suits you. In this case, I’m referring to the actions of both sides stretching back thousands of years.
Israel is not innocent in its acts by any stretch of the imagination, but I know you want to defend them because they’re “our” angels with dirty faces.
Preston: agreed. Of the terrible trio, Dave can be the most lucid and level headed at times, and at others, it’s as if Walker, Texas Ranger is his life coach.
It’s not just Dave, though. Why is it that the most fervently religious in our country are very often the most willing to visit physical harm on others? This is usually followed up by condemning others of us who would seek alternate paths to dealing with conflict.
You know…like Jesus did? That wimp.
That said, these people to whom I refer are usually wonderful in every other facet of their lives. That dichotomy is frustrating, to say the least.
The least they could do is wear a button like Lieutenant Joker in Full Metal Jacket to tip us off to what is coming.
“It represents the duality of man.”
Cap, how is it that Brad wants to eliminate me for exposing frauds, while he tolerates people calling for the eleimination of a people? I admit I can be juvenile while making fun of people. Just trying not to take myself tooooo seriously. Fat jokes about people are taboo, but killing people isn’t? Huh? I guess I really am the problem here.
Cap, I don’t wonder if I sound “convoluted” — it’s hard to write in a hurry, and I probably shouldn’t even try.
What I was trying to say was that Jesus was using a figure of speech. People often don’t understand the Bible, or for that matter even Brad Warthen, because they don’t recognize figures of speech. One of the most effective, but also most liable to misinterpretation, is when a person uses a figure of speech that is totally out of character with what she/he would normally say. I would contend that this is one of the times that Jesus does exactly that. It’s almost like a loving parent saying, “go play in the street, kid.”
In other words, when Jesus said, “go buy a sword,” he was underlining the fact that things were going to get very difficult. He did not mean for the disciples to go out and arm themselves. (And when they made it plain that they had understood it literally, He said, “that is enough” — in other words, “you just don’t get it.”)
Jesus doesn’t want his work done with arms, and he made that perfectly clear when Peter tried to cleave the temple policeman’s head, and only cut his ear off. The illustration is graphic. Too many people’s “ears” have been cut off by zealous disciples, whether medieval or modern-day “crusaders.”
Of course, you can follow the Jesus Seminar folks and just say that Jesus never said “go buy a sword,” but as you can imagine, I am no fan of such presuppositions. They make the Gospel writers look far more stupid than the average modern newspaper editor, and that I doubt very much.
Lex, the Sermon on the Mount is not a set of rules for everybody to follow. It really simply sets out the kind of people Jesus says that we ought to be becoming. It does not define the rules either for governments; there are other passages in the New Testament that pertain to that.
That being said, I think the following should govern anybody who claims to be a follower of Christ:
1) If I participate in government, whether as a soldier, a politician, a policeman, or whatever, I do it as a citizen of this country, and not as a Christian. Human government is not a Christian institution.
2) Government has the authority to take the “sword”, and punish evildoers (I’m using Bible language on purpose). And, in extreme situations (somebody invades my home and wants to rape my wife), I will take up arms in defense of my family. Believe me, I will. But I will probably be better off by some good praying. I have discovered that God answers prayer.
3)Government is still responsible to God, and the less it recognizes it, the more liable it becomes.
4) As an individual participating in government in any capacity, I am still a Christian, and as a follower of Christ, I cannot necessarily do something just because the government demands me to do it. I may decide to disobey for conscience’ sake, and if I do, I take the consequences without over-complaining. For example, that means as a soldier in Vietnam, I may decide to disobey orders to shoot a wounded woman who is suspected of spying. Even if it results in a court-martial, or whatever.
Incidentally, that is how the book of Revelation actually came to be written. (It actually is very helpful, Cap, if you understand it correctly.) Christians were being demanded to worship Caesar (state cult–while all the emperor was trying to do was consolidate his reign and gain allegiance), and they could not and would not do it. I am not sure but having the American flag in church is not moving in that same direction, though I don’t think we are there, yet.
All that to say that every Christian who takes his faith seriously is in conflict, especially when it comes to pre-emptive war strikes.
And there is another problem that we just don’t recognize well enough. In the West, we live in a guilt-based culture. In the East, it is honor-shame based culture. We trample on people’s honor; we want to rub their faces in the dirt all we can, and wonder why they hate us. We are elephants in the china shop, and we think that the only solution is sending in more elephants. God help us.
Capital A, why do you bother to post all that rambling when you are unable to directly make your case?
Just say, “I don’t have an explanation, but I just feel like Israel is to blame, and I hate Bush as much as Hezbollah does, so…”, or something similar.
Cap, I don’t wonder if I sound “convoluted” — it’s hard to write in a hurry, and I probably shouldn’t even try.
Posted by: Herb | Aug 17, 2006 7:19:40 AM
Herb, please do continue to post. Besides learning of the mutant/hybrid animal that was found in Maine, my other piece of most valuable information gained today was from you. Your explanation rang very true, and I will echo it to others in my life who were curious about that matter as well.
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out.
Lee, to utilize a quote that I finally understand and to paraphrase a man far greater than any of us: That is enough.
Still can’t describe how Hezbollah is the innocent victim of Israeli aggression, can youi? Don’t feel bad; neither can the other isolationists and Bush haters.
Ahem:
“Senior administration officials have acknowledged to me that they are considering alternatives other than democracy,” said one military affairs expert who received an Iraq briefing at the White House last month and agreed to speak only on condition of anonymity.
http://tinyurl.com/nnyz2
It is impossible to indict either side of this conflict as the one “who started it”. Each act is followed by another in retribution. Israel made daily excursions on foot and by plane across the “blue line” regularly and Hez frequently used kidnappings to trade for the 10,000 palestinians and Lebanese prisoners held in Israel (over 1500 traded since 1985). Hez kidnapped the soldiers in retaliation for the killing of Palestinians in Gaza (family of 8 on the beach-150 or so in the past few months), which was in retaliation for the kidnapping and killing of Israeli soldiers in Gaza the week before. Hez began bombing Israel AFTER the Israelis had started large scale destruction of roads, bridges, power plants and Beirut. Hez gave warning via their TV network vs leaflets. For being the ones who target civilians with inaccurate 1940’s weapons their ratio of combatant to civilian deaths is far greater than Israels precision guided humane techniques which “minimize civilian casualties”-see bombing charts showing “hits” for each side in NYT this past weekend. Hez has complex system of secretive tunnels while many Israeli posts are built adjacent to mainly Arab towns in N Israel-only one side uses “human shields”? The moral clarity is clear as mud.
Jim, you are unreal. How many Israelis have strapped on dynamite lined with ball bearings lately and got on a school bus? After reading your posts, maybe we should crack down on the Amish in America. They must be guilty of something.
Dave, how many smart bombs and fighters does Hezbollah have? Zero. That’s why they resort to low tech. Since both you and Jim point out the horrors inflicted by both sides why do we have to get involved at all?
Dave,
I am not certain if it is my ackowledgement of the contribution of both sides to the half century of bloodshed that is unreal or simply my refusal to completely dehumanize a people prior to slaughtering them. I have no concept of the level of despair and hopelessness that one would have to descend to be a suicide bomber, but it has been described as being “already dead”. However, it is a technique of striking back in an asymmetric struggle vs an occupying force-it is their only weapon. How many suicide bombs went off in Iraq prior to our merciful liberation? I am quite certain that they would much prefer to use our bunker buster bombs, tanks, chemical weapons, etc that we reserve for noble efforts rather than nails and vests. In all seriousness, were the chemical weapons used in Fallujah a more humane means of mass killing? I will await retribution on this point.
For all the naysayers and skeptics of the potential of diplomacy and the incorrigible nature of the Muslim mind, this piece from today’s NYT is a must read. A few select quotes:
Hamas’s top elected official, Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, now accepts that to stop his people’s suffering, his government must forsake its all-or-nothing call for Israel’s destruction. “We have no problem with a sovereign Palestinian state over all our lands within the 1967 borders, living in calm,” Mr. Haniya told me in his Gaza City office in late June, shortly before an Israeli missile destroyed it. “But we need the West as a partner to help us through.”
Mr. Haniya’s government had just agreed to a historic compromise with Fatah and its leader, President Mahmoud Abbas, forming a national coalition that implicitly accepts the coexistence alongside Israel. But this breakthrough was quickly overshadowed by Israel’s offensive into Gaza in retaliation for the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, by Palestinian militants, including members of Hamas’s military wing.
“We believe in two states living side by side.”
He also said that “all Hamas factions have agreed to a unilateral cease-fire, including halting Qassam rockets; the movement is ready to go farther if it receives any encouraging responses from Israel and the West.”
This month President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono of Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim country, warned that continued Middle East hostilities involving Israel “will radicalize the Muslim world, even those of us who are moderate today. From there, it will be just one step away to that ultimate nightmare: a clash of civilizations.”
I will try to voluntarily limit my verbosity before Brad issues his edicts from on high.
Jim, Here is my take on it. If for example the Mexican government would kidnap 2 American soldiers and then begin to fire 3000 rockets filled with ball bearings into San Diego, I would hope we would flatten Tijuana just for starters. If that didnt work, we head for Mexico City to destroy it, until the 2 soldiers are returned unharmed. Sounds brutal yes, and it is. You tolerate 2 today, they take 20 next, and then more and more. I realize there are centuries old hatreds in that region which to me will never be solved in our lifetimes but the Moslems take appeasement as victory, plain and simple. Iraq had no suicide bombers because they were in a police state under Saddam. So if you think that a police state existence is preferable to contending with suicide bombers, I dont. US troop casualties are WAY DOWN in Iraq and the Iraqi government is getting it sorted out little by little. I consider Iraq a success and money well spent. Some 10,000 terrorists are dead there who could not do harm to us again. Indonesia is already radicalized but I dont have time to venture into that right now. I thinkthe real problem is people trying to make what Israel does the moral equivalent of Hezbollah, Iran, and Syria. It simply isnt.
BALDFACED LIE:
“Hez began bombing Israel AFTER the Israelis had started large scale destruction of roads, bridges, power plants and Beirut.”
FACT: Israel bombed the airport and roads to cut off resupply of rockets from Iran, after Hezbollah fired over 250 across the border in response to a demand for the release of the two soldiers.
FACT: Hezbollah is not a government, but an armed gang of Arab terrorists. Israel has no business negotiating with them as if they were a political entity.
Neocon Math:
Dave writes:
“US troop casualties are WAY DOWN in Iraq ..”
From the Department of Defence. Here are the American casualty figures for 2006:
January – 349
February – 397
March – 529
April – 508
May – 511
June – 517
July – 562
Now Dave exactly which of the 6 months prior to July has a smaller number than 562. Also, check out this story:
BAGHDAD, Iraq – Iraq has doubled the money allocated for importing oil products in August and September to tackle the country’s worst fuel shortage since Saddam Hussein’s 2003 ouster, a senior Iraqi official said Thursday.
Or this:
Iraqi Security Forces and Civilian Deaths
Period Total
Aug-06 633
Jul-06 1280
Jun-06 870
May-06 1119
Apr-06 1010
Mar-06 1092
Feb-06 846
Jan-06 779
Note that July also had the biggest number in this grim category. Ok, now that we’ve established beyond any rasonable doubt that things are not getting better in Iraq, what exactly leads you to believe US tax dollars have been well spent? And what would it take to change your mind and recommend a withdrawl of American troops?
Are you counting the dead terrorists as civilians?
Why are the terrorist victims more vaguely called “civilian deaths”? In order to disconnect them from the cause, and insinuate that the US military is to blame.
Dave, U.S. casualties are “WAY DOWN” because civilians of the the other tribe/sect are much easier to capture, torture and kill. Civilian casualties are WAY UP because neither the U.S. nor the Iraqi authorities can impose law and order. Put another way, neither can stop the incipient civil war.
You and Dear Leader claim that everything will be fine (sooner or later) because the Iraqi forces will “stand up.” Unfortunately, the Iraqi forces are riddled with the same sectarian divisions as the country.
Brad can’t believe that the U.S. Marines with a 200 year history of esprit de corps doesn’t convert gangbangers. What do you think the chances of the besieged Iraqi forces converting tribal/religious loyalty to a nebulous government?
You play extremely fast and loose with terms when you claim “10,000 terrorists are dead there who could not do harm to us again.” The stats that I’ve seen indicate that far less than 10% of those “terrorists” were acutally from outside Iraq. The rest were homegrown Iraqi insurgents who, in all probability, were never a threat to the U.S. before we invaded their country. Of the non-Iraqi “terrorists” the vast majority probably wouldn’t have been an overt threat to the U.S. if Dear Leader hadn’t created a recruiting bonanza by attacking a Muslim country as the first step in his neo-con crusade.
Do the costs (thousands of Americans dead, tens of thousands of Iraqis dead, billions of American taxes wasted prior to the retirement of Baby Boomers, millions of Muslims convinced that the U.S. is waging a new crusade) outweigh the benefits of killing 200 Muslim fundamentalist foot soldiers?
If the answer isn’t apparent to you then it’s becoming crystal clear to most Americans.
America is currently defending itself a new Islamic crusade, just as our ancestors had to repel the Mohammedens from Europe in the Middle Ages.
Many Americans want to return to the Democrat policies of not defending America, and just praying to their god, Mammon, that they will be left alone long enough to enjoy this life, and leave a bigger war to the next generation.
Dave says: “US troop casualties are WAY DOWN in Iraq.”
Dave, that is completely incorrect.
Here’s a reality check for you:
The increased attacks have taken their toll. While the number of Americans killed in action per month has declined slightly — to 38 killed in action in July, from 42 in January, in part reflecting improvements in armor and other defenses — the number of Americans wounded has soared, to 518 in July from 287 in January. Explosive devices accounted for slightly more than half the deaths.
An analysis of the 1,666 bombs that exploded in July shows that 70 percent were directed against the American-led military force, according to a spokesman for the military command in Baghdad. Twenty percent struck Iraqi security forces, up from 9 percent in 2005. And 10 percent of the blasts struck civilians, twice the rate from last year.
Taken together, the new assessments by the military and the intelligence community provide evidence that violence in Iraq is at its highest level yet.
http://tinyurl.com/qhn5c
Would you prefer to have these same terrorists exploding roadside bombs in Columbia, SC? … because they would, if they could.
And they did, when Clinton sat around doing nothing about it.
Lee asks, would you prefer to have these terrorists exploding roadside bombs in Columbia, SC?
Answer: Yes. That way our troops would be safer.
Come on Lee, you can offer something more substantial than another Clinton bashing moment.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’ve already bought a pair of lovely black burkas for my wife and daughter (they fortunately have beautiful eyes) and dashing black/white checkerboard Arafat memorial head dressings for myself and two sons to wear with the other “cheese eating surrender monkeys” as we cheerfully greet the Muslim army juggernaut upon their arrival in Charleston. Sorry, I thought we should probably fire away with all snarky comments before the dawn of the new world order Sunday.
Dave, a few other commonly cited analogies: What if UK chose to destroy the Republic of Ireland following IRA bombing in London rather than focusing on state of the art LEGAL (unlike our present admin) law enforcement, negotiation which eventually produced a diplomatic settlement and truce.
Your Mexico example would be more pertinent if Mexico existed only in the minds of the spanish speaking citizens as we occupied all usable land South of Texas, 80% of the water supply, kept millions in open air prisons and were enjoying a comfortable and prosperous life at their resorts. I don’t need to be reminded of the countless explosions, killings,who started what, etc-I am not justifying the violence on either side, only trying to address today’s reality. Peace will never come until Palestine exists-Clinton was so close in 2000-we must try again and quickly. Israel has many challenges and suicide bombing is only one of them. The “demographic concern” of the soon to be majority Muslim pop in the OT-Israel may have to choose to be a democracy or a Jewish state-it can not be both. Some say they are using the “war on terror” to justify the wall which gerrymanders the country into 3 segments and maintains Jewish majority. I do think these problems can be , if not solved, prevented from producing a global catastrophe-if we have the right leadership.
Yes, kc, people tend to forget that “casualties” includes wounded. I think it also includes MIA. I don’t know about POW. Can anyone enlighten us on that?
Anyway, in this war, we tend only to hear about the KIA. That’s a fraction of casualties. The old formula was that you tended to have twice as many wounded as killed. Nowadays, it’s more than that, because modern medicine helps more severely wounded troops survive.
And Jim, the thing about the burkas was funny. It was neither ad hominem nor cliched. You’re misunderstanding me if you think I’d delete that.
Oh, and I agree about the right leadership. But we have to wait until January 2009 for that. In the meantime, it’s up to us to try to keep the country together. Bush isn’t going to do it.
bud, no one believes for one second that you or any other anti-Bush-US-war person would prefer having Muslim terrorists bombing Americans in America, and especially not to “save our troops”.
When you folks are unable to give a direct, honest, and serious answer, it should tell you that even your subconcious doesn’t believe what you claim to.
That means there is a glimmer of hope for some of you.
Lee, we already have plenty of terrorists here in Columbia. And I would like to go after them. They terrorize us on a daily basis. But sadly many of the soldiers that could carry the fight to the enemy are in Iraq wasting time and often their own lives on a futile mission to rid the world of terrorists.
The domestic terrorists names you ask? Johnny Walker, Jim Beam and Ole Gran Dad, among others. Alcohol, in conjunction with motor vehicles, is claiming a staggering number of young lives every year in this state. In just the last week four young lives have been snuffed out in automobile crashes. Two of these were alcohol related. My daughters played soccer against the young lady from Spring Valley. My step daughter knew one of the young men from Lexington who died in a senseless crash.
So we continue to waste resources 5,000 miles away battling a phoney enemy while the real terrorists (Johnny, Jim, Gran Dad and yes, Bud(wieser) claim an ever increasing number of young lives. The effort in Iraq is a complete waste of time, money and young lives. The real tragedy is the lives that could be saved if we devoted more resources to our problems at home.
Brad, Bush (not himself but the entire adminstration and the military) can DO it. Hampering the cause and working directly against doing it are the enemy within. If Bush doesn’t succeed the enemy within will celebrate it as a success for the pacifist left. I dont have to name names.
Oooooh, there are Muslim terrorists here in Columbia, but mean ole Bush withdrew the Army to Iraq, where everything was peaceful under the benevolent Saddam Hussein.
Just when you think the Democrats have reached the nadir of idiocy, they move the bar.
These anti-war types are everywhere. I guess they don’t “get it” that the “Islamofascists” hate our freedom and values. Don’t they remember when Iraq attacked us with WMD on September nine-eleven?
A letter to the WH this week:
Twenty-one former generals and high ranking national security officials have called on United States President George W. Bush to reverse course and embrace a new area of negotiation with Iran, Iraq, and North Korea. In a letter released Thursday, the group told reporters Bush’s “hard line” policies have undermined national security and made America less safe.
“An attack on Iran would have disastrous consequences for security in the region and U.S. forces in Iraq,” they argued. “It would inflame hatred and violence in the Middle East and among Muslims everywhere.”
“That seems strange since Ronald Reagan was willing to negotiate with the Soviets even though they were the ‘Evil Empire,” said retired Lt. General Robert Guard, who served as special assistant to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara during the Vietnam War and now works at the non-profit Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation. “One wonders why George Bush can’t negotiate with the Axis of Evil.”
“When you announce an axis of evil of three countries and invade one and then say that Iran should take that as a lesson, it does seem that it may give them an incentive to do precisely what they don’t want them to do,” Guard said, “develop a nuclear weapon.
History flash, Jim: Iran was working on nuclear weapons before Clinton took office. Iran and North Korea got their biggest boost in missiles and nuclear weapons under Clinton.
Red China threatened to strike California with an ICBM while Clinton was still in office, before GW Bush even entered the 2000 primary.
North Korea began nuclear weapons program in the early 1990s during GHWB presidency. 1994 Clinton threatened air strikes and eventually came to a treaty with NK to stop plutonium production in return for lifting of sanctions and recognition. We never complied but they did halt plutonium production. Secretly however, they began to work on uranium enrichment (much lower yield). Bush halted negotiations and began policy of isolation. Nuclear program flourished as plutonium production resumed.
In summary: # of N Korea nuclear warheads in 2000:
1 or 2
# of nuclear warheads in 2006: 20-25 estimated
I can see why if you think our policy in Iraq is bold and creative, then this is pure genius. Iran is thought to be at least 5-10 years from nuclear capability. I know nothing about China threatening us under the limp-wristed Clinton, but I did see they told W to “shut up” and “mind his own business”(in Mandarin of course) regarding their burgeoning nuclear program, which of course is a response to our disregard for the NPT, disdain for international law and “preventive war doctrine”. Israeli military historian Martin van Creveld stated that “the world has witnessed how the US attacked Iraq, for what turned out to be, no reason at all. Had the Iranians not tried to build nuclear weapons, they would be crazy.” We have shown Iran that they need a powerful deterrent, and fast.
Red China funnelled at least $20,000,000 in illegal donations to Clinton-Gore campaigns. Several Chinese and Gore staffers received prison sentences for it.
Clinton removed the export restrictions on US technology.
Al Gore supervised the transfer of Unix supercomputers to Red China to “simulate” nuclear testing. Instead, they stole the H-bomb designs from Los Alamos and used the computers to build and test several new H-bombs.
Clinton allowed our guidance systems from Loral to fall into the hands of Red China. Red China built a better ICBM. China provided rocket fuel, engines and other design help to North Korea.
North Korea and Red China are not building nuclear weapons in response to President Bush, but because they are able to, thanks to the Democrat blunders and trading of secrets for illegal campaign contributions.
The right in this country has gone absolutely, completely, totally insane. Our policies under Bush, as Jim has pointed out, have resulted in a collasal increase in nuclear armaments by the very people we least want to have them. From 1 to 25 nukes in Korea. Iran closing in fast on membership in the nuclear community. All because the Decider has played cowboy for 5 years and frightened the fringe elements from around the world into a crash program to develop nukes of their own. They perceive this as self defense. The Iraq debacle has made it crystal clear to those in power in Iraq and North Korea that they need the Nukes and need them fast to deter the Decider from launching another showcase invasion to spread Jeffersonian Democracy. The result is the USA is far less secure that it was in 2000. None of this requires a great deal of research to confirm. Jim just pointed out what should be obvious to all, Bush has failed us and failed us badly. Killing in Iraq has cost us respect from around the world and more importantly security at home.
Lee, my own persona nadir was Nader (Ralph) in 2000. Al Gore would have been a great president and I was duped into believing he was wierd. I’m proof positive that the right wing propaganda machine is fantastically effictive.
Al Gore is weird, and incompetent, and a crook.
One ad hominem comment deserves another. George W. Bush is cowardly and incompetent (only two insults against three from Lee). See how elevated this debate has become?
Al Gore’s weirdness can be found in his ranting about the environment, and his audience, like the Unabomber, who quoted AL Gore extensively.
Al Gore’s incompetence can be found in all the programs he ran to transfer US technology to our enemies in Red China and North Korea, on their lie that they would not use them to develop better ICBMs and nuclear bombs.
Al Gore’s dishonesty can be found in the millions of dollars of illegal contributions he accepted from foreign governments, and his claims to not know about any of it, even after flying around the country to visit with representatives and money launderers for these illegal donors.
Ralph Nader’s duplicity is shown in his running his campaign out of the Communist Party USA headquarters in New York, while refusing to hand over to the FEC his list investements in $2,500,000 of blue chip stocks.
In a weird sort of way, I like that Nader guy. Ralph pulled about 31000 votes in FL in 2000. Without him the Gorzaloon would have been in the oval office. Yes, Nader is an anti-business bozo, but as a useful idiot he served a purpose.
I think the $2,500,000 that Ralph Nader has invested in blue chip common stock and zero-coupon bonds is an indication that his anti-business rhetoric is more of a calculated act.
hoodia