Grover never lets you go

You have no doubt heard of the infamous "Taxpayer Protection Pledge" that Grover Norquist uses to browbeat Republican legislators (and a Democrat here and there) across the land into doing his will instead of the voters’.

Example of the effect it has in the real world is that it paralyzes the S.C. Legislature on the issue of tax reform. They can’t do real, comprehensive tax reform — which would mean taking our whole system and making it more fair and logical — because you can’t do that without somewhere, along with all your tax cuts, raising some other tax to balance things out (even if you’re going for a net reduction in the tax burden, not every tax would go down, if you’re approaching it responsibly).

To be more specific: It’s why we haven’t had an increase in our lowest-in-the-nation cigarette tax, even though it would reduce teen smoking, and be multiplied by a federal match that would ease the burden of paying for Medicaid, and even though 70 percent of South Carolinians want the tax raised.

All that matters to signers is that Grover doesn’t want the tax raised, so it doesn’t happen. So much for our system of representative democracy.

Anyway, the news is that ATR yesterday released its official list of South Carolina signers.

You will no doubt read the list with some interest, searching for names of folks facing election next month — either because you think this pledge is a good idea, or because you believe, as I do, that promising never to raise a tax in the future is as insanely irresponsible as promising to raise every tax you see. (And before you anti-tax folks say that’s what legislators always do, remember that our General Assembly has not instituted a general tax increase since it bumped up the gasoline tax a couple of pennies in 1987.)

And indeed, you will find such names as that of Rep. Jim Harrison, the House Judiciary chair who is facing energetic opposition in the 75th District. Oh, and there’s Denise Jones, who had second thoughts about signing in our interview, and said she thought her reply to Grover probably got lost in the mail or something anyway. Well, Ms. Jones, it got there.

But don’t put too much stock in this list. Bill Cotty‘s on it, too. Bill Cotty DID sign the list, years ago, but has come to regret that decision profoundly, and has not only refused to sign it in subsequent elections, but withdrawn his original pledge demanded that ATR cease claiming that he’s one of the lawmakers in their pocket. ATR has ignored his pleas, even as its anti-government allies pound Mr. Cotty for being a moderate.

That’s the trouble with this thing. You’re not allowed to wise up and have second thoughts. To Grover, it’s like the Mafia — once you’re a made guy, you’re in for life.

(Oh, and by the way — you might think it unfair that I link to a Mother Jones article to explain to the uninitiated who Grover is. Rest your troubled mind. I learned about that article because when he came to visit our editorial board, Grover passed out copies of it, along with several other press clippings, by way of introducing himself. He’s proud of that piece.)

85 thoughts on “Grover never lets you go

  1. LexWolf

    You have no idea how glad we are that there are people like Norquist. Without them we probably would have arrived at the proverbial two-line IRS Form 1040 a long time ago:
    1. Enter your income here:_______
    2. Send it in.
    I have no idea how you can continue trotting out that “comprehensive tax reform” shibboleth over and over again. Anyone with just half a brain knows that’ll never happen and those with a full brain know that you are either being extremely naive or deceptive, or you’re simply putting them on because you consider them a bunch of idiots (or would that be ‘jerks’?).
    After what just happened with trying to reform just one tax there is simply no way that we’ll ever see a total, simultaneous reform of all the various taxes in this state, or any other state. The only realistic way to get a tax cut or even a tax reform is to go one tax at a time. Your advocacy of comprehensive tax reform is simply an intellectually dishonest way of claiming that you, too, want tax cuts even while you know that you are viscerally opposed to any real tax cuts.
    I have yet to see a tax cut you liked or a tax increase you didn’t just love. Prove me wrong! Show us where you flat-out advocated a tax cut or opposed a tax increase, without any weasel words. Somewhere in your vast archive there should be at least one column to that effect. Or not?
    Thank God for people like Norquist!

  2. Doug

    Amen, Lex.
    Brad is a “big picture” guy. Lots of talk about broad reforms (taxes, public education, unparties, war on terrorism) with no interest in making specific incremental changes . His motto is “Leave that to the smart people we elected”.
    I think he vastly overstates the power of people like Grover Norquist and ATR. My guess is that fewer than 5% of the electorate have any knowledge of him, his group, or the phony pledges they coerce.
    We don’t need Grover Norquist to tell us our taxes are too high compared to the value received.

  3. Steve Gordy

    On the contrary, a (more or less) comprehensive reform at the Federal level was reached in ’86, when deductions were reduced, but general tax rates were lowered. It soon came unglued under the pressure of lobbyists for capital gains tax reduction, the real estate lobby, etc. I seriously doubt that Norquist had much to do with it. In any case, there is no tax reform or reduction that will keep people like Norquist from battening on our political process and extracting large amounts of money for themselves (whatever else happens). I’d be more impressed with Norquist if he took up permanent residence in some place like Des Moines and conducted his crusade from there.

  4. LexWolf

    Even the federal reform in 1986 was only for the income tax. By no means was it the type of comprehensive reform advocated by Brad and the like.

  5. Lee

    Our legislators are supposed to be wised up before they get into office. If they don’t know enough to take a firm stand on issues like government waste, corruption, spending priorities and taxation, they don’t need to be voting, much less running for office.
    Again, our public schools fail miserably to educate and build citizens.

  6. Herb Brasher

    My goodness, where are the others? RTH, you ought to be having field day here!
    What I find interesting is that people who say they are for tough highway speeding laws are also for someone whose ideal is a person who “doesn’t need the blankety-blank government for anything.” And who works to achieve that very end. Sounds hypocritical to me.

  7. Randy Ewart

    Herb, the government is bad unless it’s doing what they want – restricting social behavior, reducing individual liberties to fight those who would take away our individual liberties, fixing the roads and policing the neighborhoods in which they live etc. It is hypocritical.
    It’s a simplistic approach to complicated issues. Demagoguery against the government because it’s an easy target. Democrats are the tax and spend party, while republicans want to let the people keep their money (and run up the debt and let future generations deal with it and the Iraq War).
    I don’t like seeing a chunk of my income handed over, but I understand that I can call 911 when necessary, have the pot hole in front of our house plugged, have the city unclog the water main to our house, have the SC national gaurd around for disasters, visit a nationally recognized county library and pay for the teachers at our elmentary and middle schools which scored higher than MOST states on 5 out of 8 NAEP tests.
    If these republicans are so pissed about the spending and taxes, then McCain, as seen in his annual rant about the pork in the budget, is a champion of their cause.

  8. Herb Brasher

    Randy, you’ve hit upon some important points. But what disturbs me more is the fact that many people would call themselves Christians, and yet trumpet Grover Norquist’s cause.
    This man calls on God to curse government. The Bible tells us that all government is ordained by God, and we are to submit to it. So God obviously isn’t going to do that. Further, we are to pay taxes to whom taxes are due (and it doesn’t give any hint that we get to decide ourselves to whom taxes are due–it is Caesar who decides who pays taxes and how much). “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s . . . .” Jesus and the NT apostles are of one mind on this.
    I’m not saying that we don’t have the responsibility to work towards change where we have that opportunity. We do and we should. But railing against authority, and taking away funding for government so that it cannot carry out its God-given responsibilities–this is not Christian. No way. Not even close.
    Nor is the assumption valid that man is good, and all you have to do is get rid of government, and man will be good. This is obviously one of Norquist’s presuppositions, and it isn’t true, either. Man has a tendency to do evil, and God ordained government to help keep that in check.

  9. Randy Ewart

    Great point about man’s nature. It a capitalist society, there’s no surprise that people look out for their own interests even if it hurts others (see Ken Lay). Relying purely on the market model means relying on the nature of people like Lay.
    There are terrible abuses in government, but the structure is less conducive to the greed we see in business.

  10. Lee

    In case you haven’t noticed, the socialist dictators live in palaces, and the socialist factories have far worse working conditions than those which have to compete in free markets.
    Herb and Randy have the perverted view that government is supposed to provide all the things which the free market finds to have no demand, or sets a price which they don’t want to pay out of their own pockets.
    America is supposed to have a small government that only serves its proper role of keeping the peace and minimizing fraud, not taxing a minority of more productive citizens in order to subsidize the unearned lifestyle desires of others.

  11. Doug

    I have to disagree with your simplistic view of rendering unto Caesar. The passivity of that approach is what ultimately leads to government taking more and more using tactics that are harldy Christian. I don’t subscribe to the theory that God is somehow interested in the trivial known as government or politics. God is not a Democrat or Republican and He certainly is not pro-America. He is interested in individual hearts and souls.
    America was founded on the exact opposite belief than what you proclaim. How was that different?
    Here’s a good article on Beliefnet that mirrors my thoughts on that passage. It basically says that there are several ways to interpret Jesus’ words – one being that since God “owns” everything, then what we should render to Caesar is nothing.

  12. Doug

    It also should be noted that anyone who invokes the “render unto Caesar” position should also be comfortable with tithing.

  13. Doug

    You made a comment regarding the services you can get for your tax dollars. Have you really tried to get a pothole filled in Richland County? I did. It took eight weeks.
    I’ve also called the Clerk of Court’s office three times in the past month about property stolen from my car and have not got a call back yet. I’ve gone down to the DMV to get my son’s drivers license and been told that my drivers license was not enough proof to show that my son was a resident of the county.
    My problem with government is strictly related to the value received for the dollars spent. Government is inefficient because of the lack of accountability and competition. It also is a fertile breeding ground for corruption and patronage. The only way to control that s to minimize the amount of money available to steal and waste.
    The concept of a democratic government funded by taxes to provide essential services is noble. The implementation is

  14. Lee

    A lot of government regulation is also a joke.
    In this state, the Departments of Insurance, Labor, and Consumer Affairs have no power to enforce the laws on the books. All they can do is fine a guilty company a pittance, like $100 for not paying $10,000 of wages, and tell the victim to “get a lawyer”.
    Since the wronged parties already had a cause of action under tort laws that are 300 years old, why bother to pass law and regulations and fill buildings full of employees who can’t enforce them?

  15. Dave

    Herb, you have an interesting perspective on government and the justification of it by our faith. What makes that more ironic is that the socialist leftists in the US have spent decades trying to divorce government and God in every conceivable way possible. In fact, the left would continue to have government assume the aspects of charity and human welfare to the detriment of any religious faith’s responsibility to do those things. If the gubmint wasn’t there as the nanny caretaker to hand out all kinds of bennies for food, shelter, medicine, education, etc. then where would the needy go to get help? Probably church and to ministers like yourself. By supporting big government and the nanny state you are directly minimizing your own potential role in the vocation you chose. This is at the core of most conservative constitutionalist’s thinking. The government exists to preserve order, defend the nation, and not much else. And that is why we ultimately want gubmint out of health care, education, the arts, and many other places they should not be.

  16. Herb Brasher

    Doug, of course God is not a Democrat or Republican. That is exactly my point. But you get into trouble real fast if you think God is not interested in the details of our lives, and that includes politics. Anyone who knows what it is to have a “covenant” relationship with God knows that God calls us on details. And what else does Micha 6:8 mean than that we are to work towards righteousness? There is a balance in all of these things. Giving one group free reign to run roughshod over others, no matter which group it is, doesn’t amount to righteousness.
    However you interpret Jesus’ saying on Caesar, you can’t trivialize the importance of government, nor our duty as citizens to submit to it.
    And Lee, we have been here before, and I’ll not prolong a discussion, but your “either/or” extremism doesn’t work. “Socialist dictators live in palaces . . .” is a red herring. I have lived in what you call a socialist country, and even though it has problems of its own, it does not have a socialist dictator, and people are not left to die in its hospitals, as you maintain. (I could make just as silly an argument by generalizing that people are left to die in our emergency rooms, especially if they aren’t insured.) You are just parroting words that you get somewhere, in order to maintain your ideology. You have not lived there.
    And of course, nowhere did I say that the government is supposed to provide all things to everybody, but you can’t understand the word balance. Sigh. To talk about it with you; well, its like describing a beautiful landscape to a blind person who refuses to listen.
    Why is it that it’s either all or nothing with these people? Given the complexities of nature, you’d think that they would see the complexities of human relations, and lots of other things. And yet, the simplistic answer is, “get rid of government.”
    To bring it into the field of religion: This reminds me of the Muslim who told me he had converted from Christianity because “Islam is so simple.” Yes, but reality is very often very complex. Why would it surprise us that God might be much more complex than fits in our human brain? That the word “Trinity” might just reflect reality?
    And Dave, again, the key word is balance. The church simply cannot do all that you are loading off on it. Or I might add, “will not do,” as well, because it could do a lot more, but it is, to generalize myself, very complacent. But no way can the church replace the government. That, again, is a simplistic solution.
    It’s anybody’s guess at this point, but what is happening according to some observers is that Hinduism is moving into the medical field in this country, and will start providing the basic medical care that we won’t fix. (They are already teaching our nurses about “proper energy fields in the healing process.”) With 40 million uninsured, it’s an great opportunity for that religion, but it will have a profound impact on our world view, and eventually upon our society and its freedoms.

  17. Herb Brasher

    Oh, and Doug, arguing over principles of Biblical interpretation is probably pointless, but a basic one for evangelicals is that the Scriptures are a unity, and that if Jesus commissioned Paul, then Paul has His authority. Which means that Romans 13:1-7 explains something about “rendering unto Caesar.” In which passage we are told to pay our taxes. That was under Nero’s government, and Nero was no George Bush, not by a long shot. Closer to Saddam.
    Your mention of tithing is interesting. Actually, the New Testament view is that everything I have belongs to God, and I need to give whatever I can, which may well be more than 10%.

  18. Lee

    The misuse of religion to justify government is disgusting, whether it is the Taliban claiming a holy right to murder their opponents, or a Christian claiming that socialist control of medicine or education is “doing God’s work”.
    I am also tired of the misuse of the phrase, “Render unto Caesar.. (usually omitting the rest)..that which is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s”, by ignorant Christians and socialists aiming it at ignorant Christians, as a dismissal of criticism of taxes and corruption.

  19. Steve Gordy

    Herb, it’s no point quoting Scripture to those who A) believe that George W. Bush (or Sun Myung Moon, owner of the Washington Times) is the new Messiah and B) Only read the Gospel According to St. John Birch. They live in a world of different realities.

  20. Lee

    There is no point misquoting Scripture to Christians who actually understand what Christ was saying. Misquoting Jesus to justify government waste is the work of socialists trying to deceive good people.

  21. Doug

    Jesus would not be allowed to feed the 5000 today unless he first:
    a) Paid for a government food and beverage license
    b) Paid for a fishing license
    c) Allowed DHEC to inspect all of the baskets containing the bread and fish
    d) Filed articles of incorporation for his non profit with the Secretary of State
    e) Dealt with restaurant owners calling their congressman to stop Jesus anti-competitive behavior
    Herb – I am not against all government. It’s not an either or proposition for me. I am interested in tax equity and government efficiency. We have a broken
    system on both the tax collection and revenue spending sides. It is bogged down in unnecessary bureacracy, waste, and corruption. Freeing up that money into the private sector would unleash an economic boom for everyone.

  22. Lee

    Statists don’t want a boom for everyone.
    They want people to feel insecure and dependent on the people who call themselves “the government” for help.
    When you see statists fighting reforms in education, and immigration, you know that they want lots of ignorant, uneducated manual laborers underneath them, to be used as an excuse to control the Productive Minority.

  23. Doug

    Perfect example of the government we are supposed to honor at work:
    One of the supposed hallmarks of George Bush’s legacy is supposed to be “No Child Left Behind”. Guess what George’s brother Neil is doing for a living these days? Working for a company that sells computers with special software to assist with passing standardized tests required by No Child Left Behind. The Bush family fortune wouldn’t exist without the “assistance” of the government programs they asked all good Christians to support.

  24. Randy Ewart

    Doug, I agree with the efficiency of government issue. People handling money that is not theirs is like a college kid driving a rental car, neither will care how it’s handled.
    I must say I have been very pleased with City of Columbia. They showed up within a couple days of a request to fix a pothole in front of our driveway. Twice we had to call about the water main being clogged by the street and they showed up that day. I called Forest Acres police about a suspicious person and they had cars patrolling the area within minutes.
    My point was choosing the lesser of two evils. I believe there’s more corruption in business because people are out to make a fast buck at our expense (have you ever been ripped off at a auto repair shop for example).
    Don’t forget, W made his big money getting a big contract for his floundering company because of HW Bush.

  25. Lee

    There is less corruption in business because there is competition, and the businesses don’t have the power to force you at gunpoint to pay for shoddy services.
    Government has been restructured by losers as their pie job hangout. People with the ability to run a business don’t want to waste their lives in some public works agency which accomplishes nothing for the people. They have too much get-up-and-go, too much pride.

  26. Lee

    Brad is still stuck on that old zero-sum mentality, that “you can’t have tax cuts without raising taxes on someone else”.
    Nonsense, Brad.
    Taxes were not always this high. They used to be much lower. Some states have much lower taxes than SC. Some European countries have much lower taxes than the USA.
    Tax cuts need to reflect spending cuts, accomplished by abolishing junk programs and agencies, and making other ones lean and efficient.

  27. Dave

    Randy, I don’t defend Foley at all. As I have said before, the Republicans throw their trash out, the Democrats embrace and protect their trash. The facts prove that. You know the facts. Foley is old history now and the electorate is tired of him. Only the drive by media wants to run with this silly chat message story up to election day.

  28. Randy Ewart

    “Foley is old history” is nonsense. SOMEONE will be held accountable for hiding his actions for all this time. You yourself have dragged out the whole Clinton mess and that was 8 years ago.
    The investigation has just started. Heads will roll, and those heads will be republicans as well as it should.
    To suggest democrats embrace their mess is asinine. Crazy McKinney was isolated from the dems because of her crap. Have some gotten away with stuff? Yes, as have the republicans.
    In lieu of digging up “old history” how about dropping the partisan bickering and simply focus on the present. Whoever turned a blind eye to Foley should be held accountable, as Ice Box Jefferson should be booted out of office and into jail.

  29. LexWolf

    “Why is it that it’s either all or nothing with these people? Given the complexities of nature, you’d think that they would see the complexities of human relations, and lots of other things. And yet, the simplistic answer is, “get rid of government.””
    Now here’s a perfect example of the pot and the kettle being one and the same. FYI, nobody here advocates “getting rid of government”. We simply believe that there are vast opportunities to trim it back to the relatively small size it was intended to be by the Founders, and save astronomical sums of money in the process.
    Yet, in the same breath that you accuse others of being all-or-nothing you yourself provide one of the best illustrations of an all-or-nothing attitude I’ve ever seen. ROFL!

  30. Randy Ewart

    Double Speak:
    proverbial two-line IRS Form 1040 a long time ago:
    1. Enter your income here:_______
    2. Send it in.
    – Lex
    “Why is it that it’s either all or nothing with these people? – Lex
    Talk about an “un-nuanced” perspective…

  31. Dave

    Randy, We have some common ground I see. All the corrupt pols need to be purged from federal, state, and local government.

    If you see what is really happening though, did the Dem leadership get rid of McKinney? No, her constituents did. Where was the Dem leadership on her actions? Was it hear no evil, see no evil with her? Jefferson is about the same. The Dem leadership could be calling for his censure but we know they won’t. That is the difference I am trying to point out.

  32. Randy Ewart

    When Crazy McKinney stood up to have her press confence to demonize the police, she had NO elected democrats with her. The black caucas took her to task.
    Show me where ice box Jefferson received support from democrats. Maybe you can find an isolated supporter.
    My point is that there is a type of culture of abuse now with the republicans as there was with the dems in the 80s and 90s. I am not saying the dems are cleaner in general, but at the moment it’s the republicans that need to be taken to task. Comparing the two historically is a red herring for addressing the CURRENT problems.

  33. Ready to Hurl

    Some European countries have much lower taxes than the USA.
    Name them and then we’ll note where their standard of living falls.

  34. Ready to Hurl

    There is less corruption in business because there is competition, and the businesses don’t have the power to force you at gunpoint to pay for shoddy services.
    Does the name Enron ring a bell?
    Helllllllooooo? Anybody home in Lee’s cranium?
    Oh, never mind. That answer has conclusively been proven long ago.
    What about Halliburton? The rationale wingnut suckers frequently offer for non-bid contracts is that there’s no other company equal to the job. So much for competition controlling corruption.
    BTW, please define “corruption” in unrestrained capitalism. The only mandate is return on investment. “Corruption” would be narrowly defined as an employee keeping part of the profit without authorization. (Of course, the company directors and officers get to do the authorizing. Sweeeet!)

  35. Herb Brasher

    Good point about Enron, RTH.
    It sure would be helpful if we had a time machine and could send folks like Grover back to a Pennsylavania steel mill or a West Virginia coal mine about 100 years ago. Maybe the need might become evident to him for government that is a little bit bigger than the size to send down the bathtub drain.
    And Dave, church based initiatives have often seen problems and motivated towards solutions, but without legislation and enforcement, there is little a church or faith-based initiatives can do. Your view of government is too naive in my view. Both the left and the right put too much trust in human nature. I like being in the middle, I think.

  36. Lee

    Congressman Jefferson has not been asked by his party to resign from office, even after being caught red-handed with stacks of cash in his freezer and a trail of payola leading back to all sorts of businesses. Like Rostenkowski Barney Frank, and Tom Foley, the Democrats will protect their corrupt fellows until the voters or a jury removes them from office.

  37. Ready to Hurl

    It looks like Foley’s lacivious pursuit of teenaged boys were an open secret in the GOP for, oh, say, five years before they asked for his resignation.
    BTW, God’s Own Party “asked for Foley’s resignation” after Foley resigned and after ABC exposed the child molester. Just a coincidence, I’m sure.
    You’ve just gotta be proud of a party leadership who persuaded a child molester to run again (in 2006) when he wanted to retire.
    I wonder what else they’ve been ignoring (besides impeachable offenses) in order to hold on to power.
    Lawmaker Saw Foley Messages In 2000
    Page Notified GOP Rep. Kolbe

    By Jonathan Weisman
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    A Republican congressman knew of disgraced former representative Mark Foley’s inappropriate Internet exchanges as far back as 2000 and personally confronted Foley about his communications.
    A spokeswoman for Rep. Jim Kolbe (R-Ariz.) confirmed yesterday that a former page showed the congressman Internet messages that had made the youth feel uncomfortable with the direction Foley (R-Fla.) was taking their e-mail relationship. Last week, when the Foley matter erupted, a Kolbe staff member suggested to the former page that he take the matter to the clerk of the House, Karen Haas, said Kolbe’s press secretary, Korenna Cline.

  38. Lee

    Since there is nothing to implicate Hastert, try Jim Kolbe.
    A lot of Democrats knew about Foley, too, but they didn’t do anything. They can’t, with creeps like Barney Frank and Jefferson still in their party.

  39. Randy Ewart

    Yep, democrats kept real quiet about Foley for 5 years. They had no interest in winning congressional seats in ’02 and ’04.
    Lee’s upset because he was claiming it was “democrats pushing to legalize child molestation” when it turned out some republicans were de-facto lobbyists for such action.
    Go ahead and defend your boy Foley there Lee. Lex and Dave support him as well so make it uniform support.

  40. Lee

    You are avoiding the fact that Nancy Pelosi has been a public supporter of pedophilia activists like Harry Hay, and the open advocates of pedophilia who were delegates to the Democratic National Convention. See the links to the article I posted from the San Francisco Examiner. Get a librarian to help you look up more of them.
    If you support that sort of thing, argue your case, but don’t lie to yourself that these pervert Democrats don’t exist.

  41. Dave

    Randy, you continue the Foley obsession. Should the dem leadership resign because of what this King guy did? Who are you going to point fingers at on that one? I hope you dont have to work with gay teachers, wow, you are obsessive compulsive on this.

  42. Randy Ewart

    Dave, you continue to bring up the Foley issue by defending him. It’s not going away because you deem it a nonissue. People take great offense with 50 year old men hitting on teenage kids. You may not, but most of us do.
    The idea of twisting this serious issue into a gay issue is weak-minded and even ignorant. Hitting on a minor, whether it was a boy or girl, is the issue. It seems that you are fixated on the gay aspects of this.
    I have worked with and will continue to work with gay and lesbian teachers without it being even the slightest issue. If I worked with a teacher who hit on a 16 year old student, I would take issue with that. Apparently you wouldn’t.

  43. Dave

    Randy, the Democrat party supports 50 year old doctors giving abortions to 14 year old girls without their parents permission or knowledge. Yea, tell us all about protecting the kids. What bunk!!! What is more horrid, a 50 year old gay sending chat messages to a page boy or a 50 year old doctor performing an abortion on a 14 year old girl? We will await your answer.

  44. Lee

    Randy, you are the one fixated on Foley, who has already been ousted by the GOP.
    You are the one who ignores the Barney Franks, Bill Clintons and other perverts embraced by the Democrats.
    The homosexual advocates are silent on Foley because they don’t want to draw attention to the inordinate number of child molestations which are committed by homosexuals, which came to surface during the Catholic Church scandals.

  45. bud

    Ok Dave, let’s move on. It’s pretty well established that the GOP is either covering up for a pedophile or lying. But what’s much more shocking to me is North Korea testing nuclear weapons. That’s a pretty scary thought don’t you think? This is the huge exclaimation point on the utter failure of the GOP to keep us safe. After 6 years of total control don’t you think the GOP could have done a better job at preventing this? NK has come a long, long way in it’s weapons development since the Decider took over.

  46. Dave

    Bud, let’s face it. Bush was not joined by the spineless leftists in American when he correctly identified the Axis of Evil. You see that Bush was prophetic on this far more than even his most avid supporters would have conjectured. So my question to you is, if we had pre-emptively attacked NK, would you not now be one of the whiners moaning about how Al Qaeda was not in NK and look how Saddam Hussein is in Iraq helping AQ and killing innocent Iraqis. Stop playing the blame game, get behind your President, get patriotic, get a spine, and help win the war on terror and defeat the Axis of Evil. Can you do that?

  47. bud

    Wow Dave, that is the non answer of the century. I’m supposed to support a President that has done nothing but fail when it comes to protecting us???? He needs to be stopped! And the best way to do that is by electing sensible Democrats to the House and Senate. Perhaps with some ethical Democrats as a counter the worst of his policies we can at least begin the healing process.

  48. bud

    Alas, I support effective methods for combating terrorism. That is exactly why the Decider must be stopped. His methods are having exactly the opposite effect, terrorism grows worse with each day he’s allowed to push his failed policies down our throats. GO DEMS!!

  49. Lee

    Bud wants to drop the subject because he cannot name who “covered up” for Foley, when, where, why or how.
    There may be something to it, but bud had no clues, so it is on to the next factless smear campaign.

  50. LexWolf

    More Democratic Corruption
    Federal prosecutors have indicted Antoin “Tony” Rezko, a top fundraiser for Gov. Rod Blagojevich, on charges that he received hundreds of thousands of dollars in kickbacks from investment firms seeking business from the state teachers’ pension system, according to an indictment unsealed today.

  51. Dave

    Bud, Lieberman will go back in to support the president, as one example of a sensible ex-Democrat. And not protected, are you kidding us, no terrorist attacks (yet) in the US since 9-11. What more do you want?

    Reid, the moral values Senator from the state with legal prostitution and wall to wall gambling 365 days a year.

  52. Randy Ewart

    Randy, you are the one fixated on Foley, who has already been ousted by the GOP. – Lee
    ABC news ousted him. The GOP leadership ENABLED him.
    Randy, the Democrat party supports 50 year old doctors giving abortions to 14 year old girls without their parents permission or knowledge. Yea, tell us all about protecting the kids. – Dave
    I don’t support the other either Dave. Because of these abortions, you suggest Foley’s actions are acceptable? This is similar to the argument against ticketing speeders because there are worse crimes out there. That’s plain silly.
    Why have you not condemned Foley, unless you support him and his actions? “We await your answer”.

  53. Randy Ewart

    Reid is a dirt bag and the democratic version of Bill Frist with similar ethical shortcomings and similar personal gains from his office.
    bring us back to the real Culture of Corruption. – Lexie
    Reid and Ice Box Jefferson hardly overshadow:
    The aforementioned Bill video diagnosis Frist
    Duke “The Press Is Picking on Me” Cunningham
    Gov Taft
    Bob Ney
    John Doolittle
    Tom Delay
    David Safavian
    All the other Abramoff buddies
    Scotter “I don’t recall” Libbly
    Dave’s beloved Mark Foley
    Hastert’s cover up.
    The Fuzzy Math used to get us into war with Iraq
    State of Denial

  54. Dave

    Randy, maybe you heard Chris Shay’s statements yesterday. When his democrat opponent started using Foley to implicate all GOPer’s, Shays asked when his opponent was going to condemn a Senator who was drunk driving and killed a young intern when he abandoned her in a tidal creek. But he waited till he sobered up and called his lawyer before he ever called emergency units. But wait, this pathetic, fat, bloated, boozed up excuse for a woman abuser is the statesmen, honored that is, of the family values Democrat party. He is even against waterboarding, ironic, yes. So Foley is a homo creep who sent chat messages to an 18 year old, but he never killed a young girl. Tit for tat, right, Randy. As I said before, Foley is history, purged from the party and government, but you have your Teddy every day, your party spokesman. You should be proud.

  55. Randy Ewart

    I see the problem now! Dave is not up to speed on the whole Foley scandal. Take a gander Dave, then defend him. There are plenty more articles like this one.
    Challenger Seeks Probe of Rep. Foley’s E-Mails to Boy, 16
    Your attack of democrat scoundrels to counter my points is fruitless. I condemn them as well. I put country before party. I support republicans who are stand up people. I may vote for Floyd. I will vote for McCain (unless Obama runs) and Graham.
    So instead of attacking these democrats, how about attacking all these public servants, especially Foley, who have betrayed our trust?

  56. Lee

    We have attacked Foley, and the GOP immediately removed him from office.
    Now we have left Barney Frank, Jefferson, Hillary Clinton, and other corrupt Democrats.

  57. bud

    Randy, most of the Democratic scoundrels Dave and Lee dredge up committed their dirty deeds many years ago. For this election cycle 85% of the ethics lapses are by Republicans. The Republicans swept into power in 1994 partially on the promise that they would clean up Washington. Here we are 12 years later and the nation’s capitol is more corrupt than ever.

  58. Lee

    Rep. Jefferson was caught with bribe money just a few months ago.
    Is there any evidence that Barney Frank has reformed?
    The lack of outcry against bribery and perversion is a good indication of how widespread it is in both parties.

  59. Randy Ewart

    Come on Lexie, in the early 90s Democrats were the power party and full of abuses and corruption. Many analysts rightly compare the current GOP culture of corruption with the Dems of that era. Dredge up all the former malcontent dems you want. There is clearly a bigger current problem with the K-Street boys and Foley and his boys than with the Dems.

  60. LexWolf

    No, not come one, Lexie. Link please! Who are these 85% GOPs in the past 23 months compared to the Dems? I can give you at least 3 major Dems without even trying hard (Berger, Reid, Jefferson) so you must have at least 17 GOPs to come up with the 85%. So who are those 17?

  61. Randy Ewart

    This coming from the guy who wanted to nuance the 96.8% of all crimes are committed by illegal aliens. Funny how you wanted to nuance that figure because it came from your economist, pistol coach buddy but now you are taking a hardline with this figure.
    BTW, I’m sure Abramoff can give us lots more names other than Cunningham, Ney, Foley, Taft, Hastert, Libby, etc.
    Berger? Did you bring up Berger? Digging out the archives, eh?

  62. bud

    Lex, Berger and Reid don’t count. Berger isn’t a current government official and Reid’s problems are just speculation at this point. So we only have to find 5 Repugs. And here they are:
    That works out to 85.7%. And doesn’t even count Hastert or Armitage, both of whom are almost certainly guilty of ethical lapses.

  63. LexWolf

    Heh. Your top 5 on the list also aren’t “current government officials” and Taft isn’t federal so they don’t count either. Also Delay’s and Libby are just speculation at this point. Then of course, if you’re talking about Hastert and Armitage’s “ethical lapses” surely we would have to add Berger and Reid back into the mix, wouldn’t we? And Berger, of course, did plead guilty so we’re not talking about speculation there.
    So we zilch from you right now, far from the 85% you promised, and that’s without me even trying hard.
    Face it, try as you might you can’t deny that the real culture of corruption is with your guys. At this point in the Clinton administration, the various special prosecutors and independent counsels already had about 40 Clintonista scalps on their conviction belts. The Bushies have maybe a tenth of that.

  64. Lee

    Randy, YOU made up the lie about “96.8% of all crimes are committed by illegal aliens” as part of your smear campaign to defend illegals.
    I posted links to the real numbers, which are still overwhelming.

  65. Randy Ewart

    Zilch? Read the news Lexie.
    Taft doesn’t count, lol…tell that to the Ohio voters next month.

  66. Brad Warthen

    Jefferson? Yeah, how about that Sally Hemings thing? And the Democratic Republicans didn’t do a thing to get rid of him… Listen, I would have wanted Adams to win the election of 1800, but not because of his once and future friend’s personal life, no matter how much the Federalist press may have played it up.

    Chill, people. Man is sinful. Individual Democrats do bad things; individual Republicans do bad things. I’m not going into details or anything, but even we independents aren’t perfect. Like Jimmy Carter, we have lusted in our hearts. Speaking of that, I’m not going to pretend I didn’t look at the pictures in the magazine that had that interesting interview with him. The pictures were also interesting.

    Since when is counting up scandals a political argument? These people did these bad things on their own; none of them were carrying out party policy or anything.

    I have listened in amazement as people talk about Foley influencing whether the Democrats succeed in taking over the House. Come on. Let the Democrats take it, or let the Republicans keep it. I won’t sleep better either way. But please, please don’t judge candidates by whether someone in their party did something bad, or perverted, or whatever. That’s just too mindless by far.

  67. Randy Ewart

    Well said. Any scum that betrays his or her office should get the boot, whether Cunningham, Jefferson, or Sally.

  68. Dave

    Randy, you make the point perfectly. One party does give its scum the boot, while the other heralds them. Check the facts. There is a higher standard in the GOP. No one is defending scoundrels but at least acknowledge the difference in the process.

  69. Lee

    Do you really expect the Democrats to discuss issues and try to sell their solutions?
    You are a newspaper editor. Why don’t you folks stop carrying water for these empty smear campaigns, and give more attention to real issues by forcing candidates to talk about themselves instead of irrelevant tangential 3rd party accusations?

  70. Randy Ewart

    Dave, your blind allegiance to your party is admirable. Whether it be a sexual predator, a convicted congressman, or even a dirty lobbyist you stand by your man.
    Explain to us again how the GOP ousted Foley. Did they call ABC News to do the report or was this the fruition of their 5 year investigation they apparently did on their own?
    The senate majority leader reaffirmed his statement that he told Hastert MONTHS ago about Foley. Guess one of these republicans is lying to the public.

  71. LexWolf

    Explain to us how the Dems ousted Jefferson or Reid! Apparently first they waited for the FBI or ABC to tell them and even then they can’t be bothered to give them the boot.
    Or how about this latest example of the Dem Culture Of Corruption – surely we can expect you to write volumes condemning this predator!
    Sutton Denies Page’s Accusation
    He is on the ballot for re-election in three weeks, but a South Dakota state senator’s career is in jeopardy because of an accusation that’s been brewing for eight months.
    The father of an 18-year-old male page says Democrat Dan Sutton sexually groped the young man while the two roomed together during the legislative session.

  72. bud

    Lex, there is nothing to this story. No conviction. No arrest. No corroberating evidence. Nothing but one man’s word against another. If the young page was half a man he would have handled this situation on his own without tattling. If some dude tried to grope me I would have smacked him but good. But noooo. He squeals to his daddy (probably a neo-con) and now we have a made-up scandal.

  73. Randy Ewart

    Lex, once again you continue to chirp about Reid while completely ignoring Frist. why is that?
    You continue to yammer on about Jefferson while overlooking Ney, Cunningham, Taft, Delay who all have plead guilty or have been indicted. Why is that?
    Worst yet, you continue to support your boy Foley who has a history of emailing MINORS yet you write an essay on a democrat who has a single accusation against him. Why is that?
    I condemn them all. When Reid accepted the front row tickets to that boxing match I decided he was a dirt bag. I am the first to condemn Cold Cash Jefferson. BUT the majority of the problems are with the republicans. It’s 1994 all over again, but it’s the Guilty Old Party that needs reform. You seem to be perfectly content with the corruption. Why is that?

  74. Lee

    I haven’t mentioned Reid for quite a while, but don’t let that distract you from your evasion.
    You Democrats still haven’t demanded the resignation of Pelosi for supporting the child molesters at NAMBLA. Why is that?

  75. Dave

    Jefferson is RUNNING as a Democrat again right now. And will likely be re-elected and sit and serve in Congress. That says it all. Democrats for the most part have no shame. The Dems are basically trying to hide Pelosi and her goofy San Francisco values until after the election. Have you seen her on the Sunday shows lately? Probably vacationing in Cuba until second week of November.

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