Somebody came up to me after last night’s "school choice" forum saying he’d like to get together and discuss the subject, perhaps over a lunch, from the Club for Growth perspective.
I did NOT hit him, and I’m very proud of that. In fact, he and I conducted a very civil chat, from the auditorium aisle out into the Richland Northeast High School parking lot, for almost another hour. We were joined by a nice lady from SCRG who had always wanted to meet me and ask a few questions.
So, that brings my tally to this in the last couple of weeks: Two-and-a-half hours with my bishop over dinner, with me talking almost the whole time (and aware each moment how rude that was on my part, as his guest); three hours and 20 minutes with three representatives from SCRG on Wednesday, and three hours last night.
All on the same subject: Vouchers and tax credits for private education. And how many hours have I spent in intense debate over substantive education reform ideas, such as funding parity, consolidating districts, greater leeway for principals and superintendents in hiring and firing teachers, merit pay for teachers, and the like?
None.
I am a microcosm. My wasted time represents the time and political energy that South Carolina has wasted on this useless debate over a very bad idea. There is so much we need to do about improving educational opportunity in South Carolina. But we’re not even talking about the real issues.
As for what was said (in vain) at the forum last night — well, it’s hard for me to take a lot of notes when I’m participating like that. Suffice to say that you’ve pretty much heard it all before. What I can do is share with you the notes from which I spoke. I learned at the last minute that I had to have a five-minute opening statement, so I wrote the following, pretty much stream-of-consciousness:
choice talk notes
2/22/07What are we talking about here? Choice? I’m always suspicious of that word. In politics, it ends to be used to dress up the otherwise indefensible. I could elaborate on that, but that would probably make for more controversy than those who invited me were counting on.
What do you mean, school choice? Want to talk the merits and demerits of open enrollment? Fine. But it’s certainly not the most important thing to be talking about – much less sucking up all the political oxygen available for the discussion of education reform. I’d put something like revamping our whole system of taxing and spending in order to provide some parity of education opportunity between rural and suburban kids an awful lot higher on the list.
But we’re talking school “choice.”
Well, we’ve got choice, as proponents of vouchers and tax credits keep saying – for the affluent. Their point is that the same choices available to the wealthy should be made available to everyone else – with the government paying for it.
They don’t call it that. They say, “We’re just giving people back their own money.” They’re talking about the tax credits, which would only be fully available to the middle class, because they’re the only ones who pay enough in taxes to get it. But even if that didn’t leave out the poor, it is indefensible.
It’s not their money. It comes from the taxes they paid – mandated by a duly elected representative government – for the funding of the essential infrastructure of a civilized, secure society (the sort of society without which wealth and personal security are impossible to maintain). Like roads and public safety, public schools are an essential part of that infrastructure – in South Carolina, education is actually a mandated part of that infrastructure.
Now, to vouchers – that would clearly be an expenditure from the public purse, and a singularly irresponsible one. Critics of the public system often complain about throwing money at schools. Taking the money out of our accountability system and handing it to folks and saying spend this wherever it strikes you to spend it, without any controls to protect the taxpayers’ interest in this vital function for which the taxes were raised in the first place – now that’s throwing money.
Back to infrastructure: Say that we committed ourselves to providing a fully effective, comprehensive system of public transportation. We’ve done nothing of the kind, of course, but say we did. There would still be well-off people who would prefer to drive a Lexus or a Mercedes or a Hummer (assuming that government actually kept the roads up), and would have the means to do so. Should we then provide tax credits to folks who could only afford a Chevy to buy something pricier? Of course not. That would be crazy. So is this.
Unlike with public transit, we HAVE supposedly committed ourselves to providing education. We’ve just never followed through to the point that fulfills the promise – particularly in rural areas. To divert a single dime from the legitimate governmental purpose of funding public education – the only kind of education that can possibly be held accountable to taxpayers – is unconscionable, as long as we have such severely underfunded schools in our rural areas.
You’re not satisfied with the quality of public education we’re providing in those rural schools, or in some of our inner-city schools? Neither am I. So let’s fix them. We CAN fix them, because they belong to us. We can do whatever we have the political will to do with them.
Taking finite resources out of that system and throwing it at anybody who comes in and says they’ll start a private school in order to take that money makes no sense at all. And there’s no reason for us to do it.
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Thank you for continuing to take a stand for common sense on this tiresome issue. The voters of South Carolina have consistently rejected this wrong-headed idea. But as is often the case, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the squeakers and screamers who just won’t listen to common sense are insisting on getting their way.
All the arguments I’ve heard in favor of vouchers seem to focus on how beneficial it will be to the recipients of the money. Nobody argues that vouchers would be bad for the recipients — it goes without saying that getting money from government is sweet.
But won’t they don’t address, at least not in any sensible way, are the children who will be left behind in a system whose funds have been diminished. And it can’t be denied there will be children left behind, because the voucher will not be enough to enable all children to attend private schools.
And that’s just not fair. That’s the part of this whole issue I find so disgusting: the blatant willingness to disregard the plight of the children left behind.
“… the children left behind.. blah, blah…”
Oh for G-d’s sake.
Can we place the real emphasis on the problem of our schools where it lies?
Why do we continue to dance around the giant green elephant in the room?
Our “underachieving” kids are doing so because their parents are underachieving as well.
Kids without fathers.
Kids with fathers who beat their mothers. Kids with fathers who don’t work.
Kids with mothers who have to work.
Kids with mothers who dump them off in day cares at 16 weeks of age.
Kids whose parents use the schools as day care facilities while they either need or choose to work. (see 4-yr old kindergarten).
Kids whose parents are undereducated themselves, and foster that cycle of ignorance.
Kids whose parents shouldn’t be parents.
Kids who are enslaved by teachers unions and another public monopolistic beauracracy designed not to succeed, but to keep itself sustainable.
Kids who get no positive reinforcement at home, so they seek identity in whatever form they find it. (See: Crips, Bloods, and Folk Nation)
Yeah, vouchers will help all of that.
Our schools have past the failing point. Our kids are messed up cause society’s messed up.
And all the vouchers in the world won’t help those kids.
But you can bet your home that those kids will continue to screw things up for the kids who don’t fit into the above-listed groups.
And the beat goes on.
While we still disagree on much of the substance of the debate, it was still a good discussion last night, and I was grateful for our chance to have it. Even more grateful that you didn’t try to hit me (after reading this) — that would’ve been awkward.
The offer to get together sometime soon to discuss this (and other issues) with you and the remainder of your editorial Board (and a few members of our Board as well) still stands.
JDG
So let’s see now, the kids for whom vouchers won’t be enough to get them into private schools just so happen to be exactly the same kids who are disruptive, and the kids for whom vouchers will get them into private schools just so happen to be the kids from good homes who are worth saving.
Ummmm no. I’m not buying that.
And who said anybody is dancing around the issue of parents being the real problem? I totally agree. But I also believe parents are also the solution. Parents who truly involve themselves in their kid’s education can see their kids overcome limitations at their school. It would be a big mistake to think that private schools are somehow a substitute for parental involvement.
Nobody’s dancing around anything, Trajan. I brought up all that stuff last night during the discussion — except for the bit about how those kids “screw things up for the kids who don’t fit” that description.
What those kids “screw up” is our average test scores, giving people who are against public education ammunition. The solution isn’t to dump them, either onto the street or onto the vaunted “free market” that would chew them up and spit them out.
The solution is to find ways to rescue and educate them, so that they won’t be having kids as messed up as they are.
Why do we have to do that? the libertarians cry. Because they exist, as much as you may wish to pretend they don’t. And their presence drags down our economy, our quality of life, and our hopes for the future. This is a problem we have to solve, for all our sakes.
And herein lies the problem with blogs.
Inference.
Two responses below my initial post both inferred something that wasn’t said, presumably to validate your points.
Nowhere did I mention the words “private” school.
I am a product of, have children in, and always support, the public schools.
Private schools won’t tolerate the issues that confront the public ones. They don’t have to. The only marginal kids at Hammond or Heathwood are there cause they can play sports.
A side note: I really do enjoy all the hand-wringing over the terms like “accountability” when discussing private schools.
Accountable to whom?
I’d say the parents of the 100% of the graduates at Hammond, Cardinal Newman, and Heathwood going on to 4 yr colleges are pretty satisfied that their schools were accountable to them.
Our public schools are in large part nothing more than publically funded daycare centers, fostered by a nanny state mentality, since parents (and, yes, some teachers) aren’t held accountable.
And guess which political persuasion holds your chains?
That’s right, Trajan — accountable to whom?
When the taxpayers spend money on schools, it should be accountable to the taxpayers — only about 25 percent of whom have school-aged children.
When people spend their own money on private schools, it only has to satisfy them. If they want vouchers, it has to satisfy the taxpayers.
That’s what accountability means.
JimT — I thought your first post on this thread boiled things down about as well as any place I’ve heard before. Thanks.
I’m always interested to read about what the public perceives as accountability or lack of it. And I never see any true specifics. Just the phrase “schools aren’t accountable” or some variant of it.
I am accountable to my principal every two weeks for my students who are going to take HSAP. I keep folders on them and chart their progress on the skills necessary to pass HSAP. This is for the sophomores who will take it in April as well as for my juniors/seniors who have to re-take the test. I have to answer for every student. That is immediate accountability. I don’t know how other schools monitor, but I imagine that this is not a new system, and I doubt we are the only school in the state doing that.
I am also accountable for the failures in my classes as well as for the attendance of my students. I have to notify my principal/ass’t. principal (depending on grade level) of any students who have 3 unexcused absences. They then see the individual students to have them account for the absences, notifying parents if necessary. (Tardies–occurrences that are extremely disruptive to classroom time– are also handled daily by the principals.)
As for grades, I have to show that I have phoned or otherwise contacted parents/guardians whenever any student is in danger of failing. I can’t just send home a failing grade. I generally give students a grade report every two weeks. Parents may contact me any time for an update. We have voice mail, e-mail, E-chalk, many ways to contact or be contacted. I have had (at my request) three parent conferences in the past week.
And you know what? I’m glad to do these things to make myself and my students and parents more accountable. I’m a taxpayer and voter too and believe that I should be accountable. I also believe students and parents have a huge part in the “team” of the “game” of learning.
And I am NOT alone in this state. Thousands of us do this EVERY day.
This catch-phrase that “schools aren’t accountable” has just about worn itself out. It’s just not true. It’s almost as stupid as the belief that teachers are paid during the summer. I used to be amused at the number of people who think that. Now it’s just annoying that anyone would be idiotic enough to think teachers would be paid for the time we are not in school.
Brad, that was a tremendous analysis of the issue. I especially appreciate the analogy of public transportation.
Regarding educational issues that need some “oxygen”, I suggest we start with accountability. Doug Ross has made some insightul points about the PACT not having consequences with teeth. Trajan addresses teacher accountability, as has Doug and Lex.
My perspective from the inside is that we have a system mostly free of accountability.
Teachers are mostly evaluated on grades and are otherwise left alone behind a closed door. Teachers are often pressured if they have too many Fs, regardless of the merits of the grades. If I’m an easy teacher and most of my students get good grades, I’ll be considered a “good” teacher by many.
Students are hardly accountable for test scores. There are many who make it to high school at a 5th grade reading level. Students can graduate making 70s (D-) in all their courses and get the same diploma as a student headed to Harvard.
Parents can be completely uninvolved in the education of their students and be completely free from accountability. I can call home repeatedly about a student not doing homework and nothing changes. I had one parent who explained that her son was too tired from football practice to do homework in his honors class.
The Richland One school board oversaw a shortfall of $30 million in construction. The incumbent running for office this past November received the most votes of all candidates.
This is the type of institutional problems that are overlooked as we tinker with bell schedules, late start dates, SAT scores, and vouchers.
Susan, I think you are in an environment with solid accountability. I’m impressed. That is not the case in many schools.
Irregardless, my main point is that grades are not necessarily reflective of actual learning. A teacher can curb grades, give extra credit, or even teach for memorization in lieu of long term learning. Also, many grades are generated from completing work in lieu of demonstrating a level of mastery, e.g. completing a geometry poster.
This is why I favor end of course exams and AP courses. There is an independent measure of learning specific to a teacher and his or her students in a specific class. Assessments like HSAP are a function of different factors. Also, there are many teachers who teach content not addressed by HSAP.
Finally, you sound like a teacher who may need little accountability. There are others who may need more oversight and evaluation as in any organization.
Susan,
you are indeed accountable…to the black box called public education. Sure you have to answer to principals, assistant principals etc but to whom does the black box itself have to answer?
Any parent who’s ever had a problem with the school or the school district will know that they, like any bureaucracy, have perfected the runaround and plausible deniability to absolute art forms. Even if by some miracle the parent could actually identify the guilty person(s), there are numerous bureaucratic safeguards to make sure that nobody, but nobody, is ever held to account.
Even Randy admits that there is little or no accountability to the people who really matter here: parents and students.
Sure, you can cross all the bureaucratic t’s and dot all the i’s but what can a parent do to *really* hold an underperforming teacher or school accountable? Yeah, I know, we get to vote for the school board every 4 years and if our school board member agrees with us something might get done. Might! Otherwise, we’re SOL. Even then, any educrat worth his/her salt knows how to stall or deflect pressure from the school board.
Compare that to the 100% real accountability of school choice: school/teacher doesn’t perform, parents/student has a choice to go elsewhere. If that doesn’t get the education providers to shape up, nothing will. 100% accountablity, just as wealthy parents enjoy already!
My entire voting life has revolved in large part around the reform of education. And for that same 30 years we have remained an educational backwater. I don’t know what the solution is, but I do know I am weary of the present situation.
Meaningful reform is not something that is likely to happen within the present parameters. I live in the real world, and I see the havoc our systems reeks on these poor kids that have no choice. IMHO, change will only be made by unreasonable people that are not tied to the present system (though paycheck, profession and ego). Many will disagree, but the graduating class on 2007 will make my case more poignantly than anything I could say.
So as we began another “in house” attempt at reform, I would like to publicly remember what Albert Einstein said:
That the definition of insanity is doing something over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
Lex,
You were the main reason I almost didn’t post any comments. But I did it anyway in order to give specifics where there are none. I don’t want to argue what I know, which is that there are schools and teachers being accountable. As a matter of fact, and being fair, I can only account for myself. I take pride in my job. At least I have that even if I have little respect from you or others like you. Yes, the “black box” as you so hyperbolically and dismally call it is bureaucratic. I have always hated that part of my job. But when I close my door and teach, I know I’m doing a damn good job. No one can take that from me. It’s the old “man in the mirror” thing.
What is so discouraging is that no matter what someone says to try to open up that black box to you, giving you specifics as to how one classroom may work, you revert to the things you have possibly heard or experienced that are negative. I learned a long time ago not to believe everything I heard about situations around my school.
Do I think things are covered up? Yes. I myself have been involved in a situation very recently with my district office, something I approached them about a year ago as a parent and teacher. Nothing has changed. I followed due process, did all the “i” and “t” crossing as I’m expected to. Yes, I’m frustrated, but I’m not selling the district down the river. I’m moving on. I don’t judge all of education by one situation.
On a side note, I did once teach in Williamsburg County. I know the problems down there and what they probably are like on up the I-95 corridor. The problems in that county and others like it are not problems that will be solved in this generation or even in the next. I’m not sure they ever will be. Schools are just a reflection of those problems. (And before you accuse me of abandoning that district, I moved home.)
Are you familiar with Ruby Payne? If not, get to know her research.
Randy, I know there are teachers who are giving us all a bad name. I can, again, only account for myself. It seems that to you as to me an “A” really does mean the student is accurate and knowledgeable for 93-100% of the time. That’s the way it should be. I try not to judge other teachers. I try only to believe what I know. That’s why I posted. I knew I’d be flamed, so to speak.
The voters sent a clear message to Lex and like-minded ideologues in November but Chris said it best about insanity…
Susan, an A is meaningful in many classes, but not so in many others. Even in the most rigorous classes, grades include work that does not reflect mastery.
Also, teachers are left alone and unaccountable in many ways. To make my point, let me offer a couple contrasting examples.
I have taught algebra and AP Stats courses in which I was ultimately judged on student mastery. My students did well and I appreciated the concrete feedback. It also gave a measure of credibility to my abilities.
On the other hand, I taught a stats course at USC last year in which I received some poor reviews from the students on the end of semester evaluations. (To my defense, we just had our first baby in the middle of the semester and I was overwhelmed, exhausted, edgey and not as prepared as I should have been.) This kick in the butt made me evaluate my performance and look for ways to improve.
In that regards, Lex is on to something, as is Doug Ross. Regardless, the notion that full choice is a panacea is far-fetched. I am suggesting more accountability in our current structure.
Oops, forgot to bring my point about the lack of teacher accountability to closure. While I received the positive and negative evaluations, most of the time teachers are evaluated on 5 minute classroom visits and the grades we give.
But, Randy, how else can we evaluate? When I do my ADEPT and Induction evaluations, I stay much longer than 5 minutes, but I know what you mean. I don’t know how long you’ve been around, but ADEPT is far better than the instrument teachers who came after me used to be evaluated with (I can’t remember it’s name) or what was going on in the time I was in high school and when I first began. In the old days, there was no evaluation of a first-year teacher as comprehensive as today’s ADEPT. And ADEPT will be changing.
I teach the Induction class in my county. I hope the changes are for the good and not those kinds of changes that will run already over-taxed first and second years out of the profession. Other than what we have, how does a principal evaluate a school with 60 or more teachers? And do the other stuff? (Check out the changes in ADEPT. I think they are on the website. I haven’t had the time yet to look them over. This Induction class is grandfathered in.)
Don’t beat yourself up over the USC reviews. If we challenge students at all or show any kind of human traits, they go for the jugular. That’s why we don’t allow the students to evaluate teachers in any kind of meaningful way.
Also, you teach the kid of subject in which mastery is easier to evaluate. I teach English. The only part of my subject that is objective is probably grammar and usage. That’s pretty cut-and-dried. But English is so much more. HSAP at least can evaluate whether or not the student is proficient with basic skills in reading and writing. At that point, I try to take him a little beyond depending on his ability. I see problems at the senior level because students have not been instructed in formal writing. There is too much feel-good stuff being taught in MY view. But in some teachers’ judgement, creativity is good. My subject, at least, is hard to evaluate for total mastery. Sometimes I envy the math and science teachers.
The dirty little secret of education (and this is true in private and public education) is that personality is the major part of a teacher’s ability to teach. And that can’t be measured.
With all due respect to Chris, I have been around long enough to know that we AREN’T doing things the same way. There have been many changes through the years. Not all are good ones, of course, but I actually believe education is one of the more adaptable of the occupations. Maybe that’s the problem. It’s not the staying the same; it’s the constant change.
Many of the changes in education are made piecemeal or based on short-sighted goals. Some examples from a previous post: our schedules have changed from traditional to 4×4 block to AB block to hybrids and skinnies and back to traditional. In my 13 years of teaching, our math courses have been renamed from general algebra 1 part 1/2 to math/algebra tech back to algebra 1 part 1/2 all this after students take 3 years of “pre-algebra” in middle school. We’ve also shifted back and forth from middle school to junior high back to middle school.
Measuring learning is much more difficult than outsiders believe because of many factors such as background, kids moving, discipline issues home life etc. On the other hand, I think educators in general are overly resistant to accountability.
Susan, you asked how else we could evaluate teachers. I like end of course testing because it provides measureable and concrete results. I suggest this be included in a comprehensive evaluation which would include observations, parent communication, and even student feedback.
I also believe students need to be held accountable as the ones ultimately responsible for learning, atleast at the high school level. I teach young adults who are only a couple years from being old enough to go to Iraq, get married and have kids, and to start college or a full time job. The classroom should not be personality driven, but responsibility driven.
Brad,
Not hitting a person is not an accomplishment. Political debates should never include violence: Search The State’s archives for arrest AND school AND board AND meeting AND dismissed, and please never treat urges towards violence so cavalierly. Thank you.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers, Columbia
Randy’s dismissal of students, graduates, and parents as “outsiders” d to the educational process is an accurate characterization of insider arrogance.
Randy’s dismissal of students, graduates, and parents as “outsiders” d to the educational process is an accurate characterization of insider arrogance.
Looks as if Randy finally got his wish of a statewide school choice law. He will also finally see the lawsuits flying as he never wanted to believe when I said so. The amounts are of course still far from adequate but it’s a giant step in the right direction. And it could happen here in SC, too!!
Amazingly enough, I don’t recall seing anything about this in the state or the rest of the drive-by media. A Google search only brings up stories in a local paper and in the libertarian NY Sun plus various school choice groups. You’d almost think that the drive-by media don’t want people to know about this – nah, they’d never do that, would they?
Break-Through in School Choice
By ADAM SCHAEFFER
February 14, 2007
Utah has just approved the nation’s first universal school choice program, and in New York, Eliot Spitzer has become the first Democratic governor to propose a private school choice program in his state budget. These two firsts are a major shot in the arm for education reform, and they offer a glimpse of the possibilities to come.
With the Utah House voting 38-37 and the Utah Senate voting 19-10, the Republican-dominated Legislature passed the nation’s first general — rather than targeted — school choice program, and Governor Huntsman, a Republican, signed it into law on Monday. There’s still a long way to go until this program has a chance to mature into something that will revolutionize education. Private schools will be concerned that the political tides might turn against the program, and even with certainty that the program will stay, it will take time for them to respond to families’ demands.
Caveats aside, Utah has breached a major barrier to real education reform. Past programs, like those in Wisconsin and Ohio, have targeted small, special populations such as children with disabilities or low-income children. Utah’s is the first program to treat school choice as a general education reform that can and should help all citizens. Every family deserves a real choice of schools, all children deserve an education that works for them, and all taxpayers deserve control over how their education dollars are spent.
Unfortunately, the Utah victory shows that Democrats are still strongly opposed to vouchers, and Republicans remain ambivalent. Not one Democratic legislator voted for the voucher bill, and only an overwhelming Republican majority allowed it to pass. But a hefty 31% of Republican representatives voted “nay” with the Democrats.
Fortunately, another recent turning point provides hope that the political problems of school choice can be substantially mitigated. Governor Spitzer proposed a tax deduction for private school tuition in his 2008 budget. At $1,000, the deduction is very small, but it’s a huge political break-through.
So the poor kids in Salt Lake City can go to Juan Diego Catholic HS if they can scrounge up the $5000 difference between the voucher (scholarship is what it’s called now) and the tuition (not to mention the $600+ fee and supplies…).
Of course, Juan Diego will have to accept all of the new governmental oversight attached by this legislation. Funny Lex, wasn’t the point of private school choice to avoid the government and let Adam Smith’s hand be the guide?
This legislation is obviously the result of “ambivalent” republicans who obviously didn’t care much about meaningful choice.
Imagine the joy the poor are feeling in NY with the $1000 offer to pay the tuition up there! I guess Brooklyn Friends or Poly Prep in Brooklyn are out at only $25,000 per. I didn’t even touch Manhattan.
The “political break through” analysis is a nice little addition from an editor at a highly conservative newspaper struggling to pay its bills. Maybe they can use that $1000 scholarship.
Randy, here’s something I ran across on another blog that should be right up your alley, I think. Yours and Susan’s, I would think. It starts out by talking about the Utah plan but the last paragraph is something that would seem to appeal to any great teachers dissatisfied with the status quo.
Tim Beagley, a former member of the Utah Board of Education argues that the legislators can now stop trying to micromanage the schools.
Legislators can start by killing some bills currently before them. For example, they no longer need to tell districts how to elect their board members. If parents don’t like how their district works, they can leave. No government oversight is required. In their own words, people can vote with their feet.
They don’t need to regulate school clubs. If parents don’t like the clubs at their school, they can choose another education vendor. They don’t need to tell schools what to do if students are truant. If you don’t approve of the way your school handles problem children, you can now take your child to a school that is more to your liking.
They don’t need to regulate what teachers say in the classroom. If you don’t like what your teacher is telling you or your child, you can go somewhere else.
After they cut the red tape from this year, they can start hacking away at regulations from prior years. At long last, we can abandon all that useless testing. Accountability now resides strictly with the parents, not the government. We can get rid of No Child Left Behind. We don’t need UPASS, CRTs, NAEP or Iowa Basic Skills. Best of all, we can throw out that ridiculous high school graduation test. It only seemed to catch the students with severe disabilities or poor English skills anyway.
Parents can tell if their student is progressing adequately.
If the Legislature really believes in free markets and parental control of education, legislators need to step out of the way of both.
Now what I would like to see is for some of the good teachers in the schools to form their own educational co-op. A private school, contrary to the ranting nonsense from the Democrats, need not be a private company at all. The co-op can be formed by teachers and it can provide a decent education to students without the micromanagement of the state. Get the rules and regulations out of the way and let the teachers teach.
Lex, you contradicted yourself. The UTAH plan contained a great deal of government oversight.
I agree with you in regards to many of the problems in education, but scrapping the whole system is not reasonable for all the reasons I threw at you last year.
It’s obvious from my earlier posts that I agree with boosting accountability. Regardless, I find the debate on choice to be mostly a big fat stinky red herring. For example, last year Rex didn’t need to address any of the major issues because all he had to do was be anti-vouchers.
You haven’t answered the last paragraph, Randy. Wouldn’t this appeal to good teachers? Get together with maybe 20 other likeminded teachers and finally get to teach the way they’ve always wanted?
Of course it would Lex. But I’m taking a global view of what’s good for all the schools and students.
By changing schools, schedules, public to private oversight etc. you are changing the medium for the delivery of education, but the underlying system is unchanged.
Take for example getting a diploma. If a student has a 4.6 gpa and is going to Harvard or a 1.7 gpa and will never again open a book, each receives the same state diploma. This doesn’t change because I’m with 20 like minded teachers.
I’ll think about the co-op school idea, but it just sounds like a charter school to me without the regs. I can’t even imagine what it would take to start up a school. Too late at night for this conversation, I guess. Too many rough drafts graded in one evening.
But I will say that the “ridiculous high school graduation test” was only developed in response to concerns by the public that “Johnny couldn’t read” and was getting out of high school regardless. I remember when the article came out in one of the national magazines (can’t remember which one). I have never known a reporter to do an in-depth article with such far-reaching repercussions. So, when people complain about HSAP, PACT, or some of the other educational situations they may hear about, I remind them that the public screeched long and loud for many of them.
Be careful what you wish for would fit here. Good night all. I’ll read again tomorrow.
“But I’m taking a global view of what’s good for all the schools and students.”
So am I, Randy. The difference is that my global view tells me that we have an unbroken record of failure for the past 5 decades. We’ve tinkered around the margins again and again, coming up with all sorts of “reform” schemes and “tests”, which inevitably were replaced by yet more new “reform” schemes and “tests” every 2 to 4 years, only to still find ourselves at # 49 or 50, just as we did 50 years ago. This despite spending 4 times more per student in real, inflation-adjusted dollars than we did 50 years ago.
My global view tells me that it’s time to think outside the box and try something we haven’t tried before. Choice and competition works everywhere else in our economy. It’s time we tried it in education as well.
Lex, you can’t even explain how your plan will work other than “private schools will pop up and find teachers from somewhere”.
How about hiring the best teachers from the government schools and paying them better with the money saved by cutting out all the administrative overhead and PR expenses?
Randy, you can’t even explain how your plan (stay-the-failed-course?) will work other than “trust me, we’ll try a slightly different variation on the reform plan that didn’t work last time. Yeah, that’s the ticket, and if that doesn’t work, we’ll just tweak it a little more in a couple of years.”
I have yet to see any reform plan from you or anyone else that’s convinced me it would work even marginally. Given that you haven’t produced any such plan yourself, it’s quite disingenuous of you to demand some sort of panacea for all the educracy’s problems before we get to try an alternative.
Susan,
Why Johnny Can’t Read had such enormous resonance because, well, Johnny can’t read. Far too many students were and are leaving, even graduating from, public high school without even basic reading and math skills. The tests were an expression of the intense frustration of parents at the unwillingness or inability of the educracy black box to perform up to standard.
Since the book’s publication in 1986 we have had 21 yeargroups of kids go through the failed system from 1st grade to 12th grade. We’ve had 21 years’ worth of fiddling at the margins and awesome gobs of money thrown at the problem, with no discernible improvements to show for our efforts. How much longer will we allow this educational malpractice to continue?
Maybe we should be careful what we wish for but how much worse could any alternative to the current failed system possibly be? More and more people are willing to take their chances!
Lex,
to date your defense of your “plan” has included:
1) posting links to some biased sources
2) suggesting that the teachers union controls the will of the country
3)disputing legitimate sources because you couldn’t understand the term “median”
4) using W’s rationale that a bad or unproven plan is better than any alternative.
5) assuming that teachers and building space will magically appear to accomodate the students migrating to the private schools
After considering this, I’m surprised the voters didn’t support you and the choice candidate.
So what is your plan, Randy, other than stay-the-failed-course?
1) Every source is biased. Those of us who have put a lot of study and thought into improving education are biased against what we have seen does not work.
2) Teacher unions don’t control as much as they wish, and more than they should. The main problem is their attitude of resisting responsibility for outputs.
3) Sources of data from within the status quo are biased first and foremost towards preserving their jobs.
4) New teachers, like any other workers, do not appear by magic. They choose to teach because they like the work and/or the money. Privatizing education will offer them more money and better working conditions.
If public schools are emptied by students with a choice, the new private schools can buy the old public school buildings and probably get a lot more utilization out of them than the 8 hours for 9 months that they now see.
Lex,
I’m not saying we (your so-called black box that I guess you have boxed me into fairly or not) shouldn’t test or be responsible for basic skills. I’ve already told you I’m not afraid of accountability, and the teachers I know aren’t afraid of it either. You’re the one who called the high school graduation test “ridiculous.” I’ve heard that for so many years and in so many ways. The test actually is a good indicator of BASIC skills. If a student has passed the test, I know that I have a student I can work with, assuming there are no issues such as special ed., a WHOLE other ballgame. (Headache #504)
I don’t teach to that test. As a teacher of seniors, I treat it as a marker. I had no problem with the JCR book. It was good for education in many ways. It’s funny though that some of the parents who were so frustrated upon hearing that “Johnny couldn’t read” didn’t want to acknowledge that it was their Johnny who couldn’t. That’s all I meant.
When HSAP or PACT is criticized, I just remind the critics that it was formed in response to their frustration. I have had students not take a diploma because of it. (In fact, it might surprise many people how many students do not “graduate.” Oh, they might MARCH, but the “thanks for coming to school for 12 years” document is in the diploma cover. It looks just like a diploma.)
But back to the test, I don’t know of any other way to determine the success of a student that is not too subjective. Any other ideas that people can come up with (and I’ve heard a few) usually involve some kind of subjectivity. That won’t work on many levels. So, like it or not, a test is it.
Recently, more of my college prep/Honors students are the ones not graduating on time. Can’t quite figure out why. They have all of the “materials” but just don’t pull it out. My Tech Prep students, on the other hand, work harder many times and are more practical. It’s a change. I’m still trying to evaluate it.
Lex, I’ve posted quite a bit about problems and offered suggestions for education. The posts are there for you to read.
Susan, I like the standardized tests for accountability. I also think we should go further. Sophomores and freshmen aren’t concerned let alone thinking about some exit exam.
The accountability should be much more immediate. I would like end of course exams used to a greater extent and for these tests to count more than 20%. Let’s catch the problems when they are freshmen.
Randy,
I don’t have a problem with end of course testing at all. In my course, however, the problem is narrowing down what will be taught. Math is pretty cud-and-dried. English isn’t. Yes, the test could be on grammar and usage, which I would love to see. Writing is more subjective, and literature would be a nightmare, especially at the different levels. Of course, I’m pretty old-fashioned and would like to see more a “Great Books” kind of approach.
So, I’m still thinking about that. How would you count the end of course? 20%? Just curious.
And you’re telling me that sophomores aren’t concerned?? You are sooo right. Mama and Daddy are concerned, but I don’t see the urgency in the classroom from the students.
I’d like a course to be broken into major units and have the EOC exams mirror this structure, with each unit on the exam worth a proportional amount. In total, I’d like the exam to count enough that failing it would have a major effect, maybe 40%.
For example, in algebra 1 three of roughly eleven chapters are on equations with 2 variables. I have seen students bomb these chapters, which are hugely important for future math courses, but still pass the course. They enter succeeding math courses with a giant gap that will hinder them.
For English literature, couldn’t the EOC exam include details and analysis of these great books?
Forget all the “inside the black box” talk. Let me tell both of you what parents would like. They would like to see their kids get the best possible education. They also would like to have the choice to get this education elsewhere if the local black box doesn’t perform, just as they can do with any other product or service they buy.
You mean choices like the police or sheriff who patrol your neighborhood? The firemen zoned for your area? The guys paving the road or working on the electrical lines?
The government provides essential services for the community. It’s not like your analogy of zipping down the street choosing which burger you want to buy.
After you reconsidered Lex, you admitted even your private schools would be held accountable by the governmnet. Someone has to look after our community.
I’m surprised you don’t see the huge difference between police and firemen on one hand and educrats on the other. You can make a very strong case for a monopoly on police and fire protection on public safety grounds.
You could also make a good case for the public funding of education since it’s clearly in society’s best interest to have children educated. No such case can be made that government should also deliver that education through inherently inefficient government-run schools. The education service may be essential but there is no reason why parents can’t choose the actual service provider, just as they do now with most government-paid services, e.g. medical care paid by Medicare/Medicaid, college paid largely by government, nursing home care etc. etc.
(I’m not sure why you keep saying that I “reconsidered”. Everything in this country is accountable to the government to some degree and I never said that private schools are any exception. Thus there was nothing to “reconsider”.)
Lex, after 2000 posts about how Adam Smith’s hand would drive these schools, you finally admitted the private schools would be held accountable by the government. Which is it?
“Plans” like yours only take into consideration a portion of the student population, while ALL students are entitled to education. You admitted you send your daughter to private school to avoid the “idiots” who cause problems. Those “idiots” will go to school somewhere.
Besides, you can’t answer the basic questions as to space and increased teachers to accomodate the influx of students into private schools in your “plan”.
After 30 years of reform, the government school experts haven’t come up with a plan that worked. They all just spent more money and raise the salaries of the same employees who failed the year before.
They have no plan today.
Lee,
I wish they’d raise my salary.
“Lex, after 2000 posts about how Adam Smith’s hand would drive these schools, you finally admitted the private schools would be held accountable by the government.”
Post the link, Randy, post the link!!
Susan,
did you fail the year before?
Lex, are you reconsidering this as well? I can’t keep up.
You don’t have to keep up, Randy. Just post the link where I allegedly “reconsidered”!!
So you’ve never reconsidered your position on government oversight of education because you’ve always espoused government oversight?
Government oversight might be a necessary concession on the road to eventual complete separation of school and state.
Lex,
No, you’re right. By Lee’s logic, I couldn’t get a raise because I had a successful year. Darn.
Superior teachers would jump at the chance to open their own private schools and collect the full cost per student of $12,000 a year.
The market mechanism which will push private education anywhere is the same thing that pushes any business anywhere – profit motives.
There are no “high fixed costs to set up schools” in the business world, only in the world of government waste.
If students had the choice to spend the $12,000 now consumed by government educrats, they could hire someone like me instead. I would rent a much nicer facility than the average public school with the $240,000 tuition from my 20 students. I wouldn’t run out of chalk or any other such silly publicity stunts. I would turn out students who were more educated, and got into better colleges, and graduated from college.
So, Lee, again, by your logic if I am not eager to jump at the chance to open my own school I am not a superior teacher?
We will never know until you try.
We do know that 20 students at $12,000 a head would attract a lot of talent that is currently not interested in teaching in government schools for a small cut of that.
Lee,
You’re kidding, right? I have to “try” to form a school to be considered a superior teacher? I can’t be a superior teacher if I am doing my damndest every day to teach my students?
This is surreal.
Doing your best is what every employee is supposed to do. Superior workers are those who produce more and better RESULTS.
Why would a superior person in any field remain an employee and whine about being “under paid”, when they could change to another field, or start their own company to take the cream customers from their former employer?