We were way busy last week and I failed to comment on this, but it’s never too late on a 45-year issue.
I was pleased to hear from Methodist preacher friend that he and some fellow clergy were going to pray at the Confederate flagpole, with the object of their prayers being much the same as mine:
By RODDIE A. BURRIS
[email protected]
A group of 30 to 40 people prayed
and held Communion Tuesday on the State House
grounds in protest of the
Confederate flag flying there.
The group, led by ministers from area United Methodist churches, had Communion at the State House’s African-American monument.
Afterward,
they turned and marched 150 yards to the Confederate Soldier’s
Monument. There, the group prayed, asking that the flag be removed from
State House grounds…
“We hope that now people will start
bringing their churches down here and having service,” said the Rev.
John Wesley Culp, pastor of Virginia Wingard Memorial United Methodist
Church, on Broad River Road.
Randy and I need to bring this idea up to our pastor. Whaddaya think, Randy? With a Legislature like ours ("The protest drew little attention inside the State House as legislators
began their six-week countdown to the end of the 2007 session"), I think it would be wise for people of good will to appeal to the Higher Power.
In any case, this development was encouraging, because it was the first step beyond Coach Spurrier’s comments, in terms of assembling a coalition of mainstream forces to press our lawmakers to do the right thing — however reluctant they are even to speak of it.
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Do the politicians in the state house work for us or not? I really don’t think they give a crap about their constituents when it comes to anything remotely controversial or ‘progressive’, if you consider eliminating racist symbols of the past and ensuring the health of the citizenry progressive. Like in your previous post about smoking, there are plenty of people who want to see action on these issues, but our elected representatives seem to have no desire or stomach for it.
Who cares???
I would think that the UMC would be tending to its ever decreasing flock.
Discussing this at work today, all I heard was laughter!
Brian
I agree with Brian. Sort of. I don’t know whether the UMC would benefit from devoting more time to attending its’ flock or not…seems to me they attend to them quite a lot now and that may be part of their problem. I’m not a Methodist so I don’t know. However, I made some remarks about Joe Darby being called a “reverend” while spouting NAACP doctrine on another string in this blog recently, and my point is still this: I think it is good for preachers to comment on society and share Gods’ word when it comes ethics and morality…the bible has much to say on morals and ethics. But when it comes to spouting secular opinions about issues that are seen more than one way by good people, and doing it under the aegis and imprimatur of ‘the church’ ~ people like these Methodists seems sort of silly to me. And it’s not just the Methodists, it could be any denomination. If you want to tell me what Gods’ word says about adultery or drunkeness, great. And please do so while proudly proclaiming that you’re a Methodist or whatever. But when you start spouting NAACP doctrines and call yourself reverend while you do it, or make a show of praying against the CSA flag as Methodists, I think all you do is alienate and anger good people (who happen to disagree with you) against the Methodist church.
Brian, I believe making such snide remarks about these pastors who are in a profession to help others reflects exactly why you don’t understand the moral perspective some of us have regarding this issue.
Brad, I would be interested in our pastor’s take on this. I asked him about the immigration issue and he offered great insight. I wonder if Bishop Baker would or has considered a rally at the state house for this issue as for school choice.
I don’t think Brian was trying to be snide Randy…he made an observation (the UMC IS bleeding members you know, and maybe stuff like this thing at the flagpole is partly why) and he mentioned that many he heard at work thought it was sort of comical. That doesn’t sound snide to me, unless you’re over-sensitive to start with. I think a great many more folks than you’d like to admit probably view all this pontificating by the clergy and organized religion sort of silly and tiresome. Especially when ti comes to the confederate flag. Literally thousands of good people who supoport that flag are christian people. I know quite a few. They may or may not be be wrong about the flag, but if they are…being earnestly and honestly wrong doesn’t make them bad. And that being wrong is equal to being bad I think is what this minister prayer thing sort of implies. That’s partly why some find these preachers humorous. Ed
I was raised in the UMC, my dad is a retired UMC minister and teaches at a respected Methodist Divinity school. I attended MYF gowing up, Methodist camps, Methodist colleges and even contemplated the ministry myself. I left the UMC 11 years ago because they forgot why they exist. They have become just another collection of left-wing loonies whose latest antics on the flag prove how far they have strayed from the New Testament which should be their road map. And while we are at it, who were the real Christians, Lee and Jackson or Sherman and Sheridan? Keep the flag and ALL the loonies can find I-85 or I-95 north and go someplace else. Comrade Brad should lead them all out.
Right Steve. I learned a LOT about Robt. E. Lee here:
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee_Religious_Views.htm
This was a man of giant character who was careful to remain small in his own eyes, and humble before God. ED
that address ends as follows:
Lee_Religious_Views.htm
It got cut off above, and it’s definitely worth a look. I wish we had a man like Lee to lead us now. Ed
Lee was a man of towering character, as was Abe Lincoln. One believed in a loose association of states; the other believed in the grander, and more prescient, idea of the Great Nation.
Neither would compromise those beliefs. In Lee’s case, it led him to refuse to lead the Federal army against Virginia. Yet if he had, so early in the war, he could have used the vastly superior resources to extinguish the light of the rebellion while the damage was still minimal.
For Lincoln’s part, he would insist on waging war in the service of preserving the Union no matter how much internal resistance he faced. And hundreds of thousands died.
Had they been less principled, maybe none of it would have happened — certainly not that way.
The ministers see a moral perpsective in addressing the flag issue so more power to them. They did so with prayer and in a very peaceful way. Whether one agrees or disagrees with them, taking shots at them for taking a stand reflects more on the critic – e.g. Steve calling them “left wing loonies” (which is hardly the dialogue of a person contemplating ministry).
Ed, I am always amused when a person feels justified in determining what remarks should or should not be offensive to others. Suggesting that I am “over sensitive” is such a case. That is the position of Ann Coulter apologists who tell us to “get a life” when we are offended by her remarks.
Jesus condemned the prostitute’s and Samarian woman’s adultery, but not the women themselves. King said we are to love the person and hate the deed. These ministers are taking a stand on an issue or deed. I don’t see their actions as speaking out against those who “are wrong”.
If ed, steve, and Brian disagree with these ministers, fine. But to take shots at them or justify others doing so is unwarranted.
Brad,
Some people say flag=heritage, and they conclude that therefore we must fly the Confederate flag from a flagpole on the Statehouse grounds. This conclusion is ridiculous, inappropriate, and offensive, and, what is worse, it does not follow from the assumption that flag=heritage.
How can we convince those people that the flag should (must!) be brought down from the flagpole? Arguing with them about whether flag=heritage does not seem like the best strategy, but it is important to let them know that 1) we know our history, 2) we respect the honorable people on both sides, and 3) we disagree with them on their erroneous conclusion that the Confederate flag must fly from the flagpole on the Statehouse grounds.
I am interested in showing respect for Lee, Lincoln, and all the soldiers and families on both sides. I am interested in moving our state forward socially and economically. And I am definitely interested in getting the flag down.
Can we get a commission appointed or some public forums (in addition to this one — your blog and newspaper) going so we can launch a study or commission to evaluate the Confederate Memorial to see if anything should be added or removed from it to make it better and more appropriate?
Please let me know how I can help. Thank you.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
This is an example of why I and thousands of others have left the United Methodist church and have left other “mainstream” protestant religions. These preachers should be more worried about saving souls that about tearing down others’ heritage and supporting radical groups like the NAACP. This is typical liberal theology at work.
Randy, I went to John 8 and read about the woman taken in adultery, and I don’t think she was a Samaritan. A small quibble I admit, and your greater point stands…the Lord DID deal with her mercifully and graciously, condemning her sin but not her. Now, He did also deal graciously with a Samaritan woman elsewhere in scripture…but it was at a well as I recall. In any event, here are my points:
These Methodists Ministers are indeed free to go anywhere they want, and pray or whatever. They are free to see a moral component in the flag debate, and to believe that flying the flag on the statehouse grounds is immoral.
But there are many good and Godly christian people who disagree with the ministers, and frankly see a moral compnent in it too: They see it as immoral that people would try to demean and dishonor our past and people who fought valiantly for a cause they thought was right. Now the people who see it this way have been called every name in the book by the other side. They’ve been called racists, grits, rednecks, heathens and all manner of such names.
Given that this is true, can you not see that people who support flying the flag and even many who don’t (like me) take sort of a dim view of those on the anti-flag side who wrap themselves in the cloak of christianity and proceed to get all righteous on us and act like there aren’t two legitimate sides to this? Their side has done the most egregious name calling, and it’s a little late for self-righteous indignation now.
Bottom line: The Mininsters are free to be self righteous and moral and pray all they want, anywhere they want. And the rest of us are absolutely free to point out their hypocrisy when we see it. I happen to agree with them about the flag (for different reasons), but frankly they are in no position to preach to the good and Godly people who disagree.
I don’t know, maybe we all need to spend more time reading John 8. Your friend…Ed
Steve, when would it be right for an evangelical minister to address political issues? Is this determined solely by the positions that different people take on an issue, or is there something more fundamental here?
I guess what I am wondering is if a person can be sincere, but at the same time sincerely wrong. In the Old Testament, we have the example of a righteous king, Josiah, who goes and participates in a battle that he should not have been in. I guess I wonder whether Lee and Jackson, godly men (especially Jackson), could not have been sincere, but sincerely wrong.
And we still have the issue of what a flag represents that was not hoisted until the early sixties, and everybody knows the “official” reasons for it, but also the “unofficial” reasons for it. South Carolina was a racist state to the core. There were many “godly” people who held those opinions; I tend to think they were sincere, but sincerely wrong.
Just to give an illustration. My wife and I met at what was then Columbia Bible College. We didn’t know it at the time, but CBC (now CIU) had been closed to blacks for decades (I understand that it had been the first college in SC to integrate in the early sixties, not long before we arrived). Now there was a reason for that, because CBC didn’t have much clout, and the State of SC would have closed the school down had they admitted blacks. But was it right to remain passive on the issue? It’s easy to talk about it now, of course, but have evangelicals not been too withdrawn from the public scene?
I’ve met at least two African-Americans who, touched by God through CBC’s outreach ministry, then converted to Islam out of rage over the school’s adherence to SC state law. There are still a lot of African-Americans converting to Islam because of injustice that has been, if not condoned, at least passively allowed by white evangelical Christians. The confederate flag, hoisted when it was, certainly seems to represent that injustice to me. Should we not speak out on this issue?
I’m not trying to dictate anything; I’m asking and probing. Troubled by my own past, when growing up in Texas, as a member of an evangelical church, I thought the status quo was, well, the status quo. African-Americans went to other schools; they went to other churches. That’s just the way it was; must be the way God intended it to be. Or did He?
I said above that these Methodist Ministers are in no position to preach to those who disagree with them. Any moral high ground which they claim and that may have existed at one time has been swamped and turned into a peat bog by the name calling and finger pointing engaged in by their side. I’m not saying the pro-flag side is innocent, far from it. But these ministers do NOT get a pass either.
There is another thing about these ministers and others like them that just bothers me to no end. I hate to get in a scripture quoting contest, because we can easily begin twisting scripture to support whatever position we might hold rather than allowing it to say what it says and letting God be God. That said, my reading of Matthew 6:6 tells me pretty clearly that God is much more interested in the PRIVATE prayer of earnest, fervent and humble seekers of His will than He is in all this “symbolic” prayer intended mainly for public consumption. In light of Mat 6:6, what exactly IS the purpose of a public prayer at a place like the flagpole if it isn’t to try and impress people rather than seek God? I think that if these minsters really want to seek Gods’ sovereign will and guidance on the flag issue and effect change in mens’ hearts about it, they’d do better to enter a private prayer closet. On the other hand, if they want to try and score “moral” points and make symbolic gestures for the consumption of men and that don’t change hearts and minds, then they ought to continue to hold rallies at flag poles. Ed
Actually, Matthew 6:5 is very appropriate too. The Lord spoke about hypocrites who love to pray standing in synagogues and on street corners. He might well have said “and at flagpoles.” Ed
You know the difference between a Methodist and a Baptist?
A Methodist will speak to you in the liquor store.
Carry on!
The frozen chosen. Ed
Nah, the frozen chosen are the Presbyterians, of which I am one at present. Gone from Baptist to Lutheran to Presbyterian. Now my kids just gave me a DVD about John Paul. Should be interesting, but I don’t think I’ll convert, Brad.
Come on,Herb,those Catholic Masses are really short and the music is a lot better.
John Culp, one of the Methodist ministers involved in the flagpole prayers, was a founder of the Salkehatchie Summer Service program. That program has a great deal more to do with active Christianity than the pontifications of 10,000 Scripture-quoting authorities.
That may be so, but I don’t think it changes or challenges my point about the event he participated in at the flagpole. This pretty clearly was public posing to elicit responses from men more than it had anything to do with seeking a response from God. I’m not one of 10,000 scripture quoting authorities, I’m just one average guy who cited two verses written in red that to me summarize what God the Son had to say about these public displays. And because of what these scriptures say, and what I know in my heart about the hearts of men in general (because I am one), I am very skeptical of people who wrap themselves in this religious veneer and then stand in front of the rest of us and loudly proclaim why so many people are wrong about something. As I said earlier, I happen to believe they are right about the flag. But I am decidedly unimpressed by their religiosity and apparent need to be so public about their prayers, as if we’re all supposed to be moved one way or another by it. I think we need less prayer at flagpoles and more private prayer between individuals and their awesome God. That’s my take. You don’t have to like it or agree. Ed
If the ministers were “pro=flag, would not some leftist group be demanding their churches tax exempt status be revoked?
When I first read about this what came to mind was the 1960s civil rights movement.
So here we go again spewing hate against the South for the publicity, publicity publicity.
I wonder will some newscasters (Brad wanna be) gain fame and fortune from tearing down the Confederate Flag in South Carolina as they did in those terrible days of 1960. The Distorting, condemning the South, breaching our state soverignty by bringing in busloads of out of state rioters to intimidate to violate our peace with the Do what we say or else!
This preacher and his flock should Beware they might get what they pray for, but it won’t be from GOD.
Ed you are right on and I commend you for your insight and knowledge.
One thing ED, you are wrong about Lincoln. What he did was EVIL!
As far as I am concerned, anyone who hates the Confederate flag and believes it to be a racist symbol is themselves in concert of sorts with the KKK and the Neo-Nazi Party ilk…my proof, both the flag haters and the racists share the same belief on the Confederate flag (that they think it is racist)… whereas the Sons of Confederate Veterans and other real Sons and Daughters of the Southland believe it to be what it really is, a memorial to bravery, duty and patriotism!
Individuals, groups, and organizations who denounce the Confederate States of America, the Confederate flag, Confederate Heroes, and the celebration of Confederate Memorial Day appear very ignorant, biased, and hypocritical. I assume they totally support the United States of America, the U.S.flag and U.S. Memorial day.
In claiming that the Confederate flag represents slavery and racism they make no comparison to the U.S. flag (Stars & Stripes) and to the history of the United States of America. Slavery began in the North in Massachusetts. Soon after the Pilgrims landed they began enslaving the Pequot Indians. In 1641 Massachusetts was the first colony to legalize slavery by statute. The five states that imported slaves in the colonial era were Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and New York. The slave trade was still in operation at the beginning of the War Between the States and the slave ship “Nightingale” was captured by Capt. John Julius Guthrie, who soon became a Confederate naval officer, on April 21, 1861. It was registered to the city of Boston, Massachusetts. Thus the slave trade in America was carried on under the U.S. flag and the flags of the Northern colonies and states with U.S. money. The U.S. flag flew over slavery for 90 years as compared to 4 for the Confederate flag. New York City had the second highest slave population in the U.S.
The U.S. flag flew over the genocide of the American Indians. Their land was taken without fair compensation and they died by the thousands from starvation and disease as they were herded onto reservations. It was the U.S. government that broke every treaty ever made with the Indians. The U.S. flag flew over the Trail Of Tears endured by the Cherokee. The official flag of the KKK is the U.S. flag, not the Confederate flag. Indiana and Ohio in the 1920 era were the largest Klan states and all photographs of that era show them flying the U.S. flag. The U.S. flag flew over the concentration camp incarceration of loyal Japanese U.S. Citizens during World War II while some of their fathers and sons fought and died for the U.S. as American soldiers. The U.S. participated in the allied bombing of Dresden,Germany in World War II which was a population center and not involved in the war effort. Thousands of innocent children were burned alive. Finally the U.S. flag flies over a nation that has murdered an estimated 50 million babies by abortion.
Given these facts, which flag has flown over more human rights violations, the U.S. flag or the Confederate flag? Which flag is more associated with slavery ? Which flag has had more racist acts committed under it ? Clearly the answer is the U.S. flag. Both the United States of America and the Confederate States of America should be respected and honored for positive reasons.
To request a free article explaining the 10 causes of the War Between the States contact me at [email protected]
James W. King
Albany, Georgia
All,
Just to link to the story and the motivation from the insider’s point of view:
http://www.thestate.com/140/story/72899.html
And, to comment, I thought the article was well written.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
On the issue of displaying the Confederate battle flag: I think we should look at the Civil War the way my brother-in-law now looks at the Iraq War. When we invaded Iraq he was all for it, but then he went over there with the National Guard and now views the war as a mistake. In my opinion the Civil War was a mistake from both the Northern and Southern point of view, so why celebrate it?