As I’ve noted before, many of the flag defenders think they are terribly insightful students of history, and that the rest of us are just showing our ignorance in saying that flying it on our State House grounds is stupid and wrong.
Welcome to the Bizarro World.
Anyway, there’s this one guy who keeps writing to me, and making the terribly profound — to him — point that there were American flags flying over some of the slave ships. To him, and the thousands of others who say this with a big, triumphant air — this is a major GOTCHA! Apparently, it’s supposed to cancel out the fact that South Carolina and the other Confederate states seceded in order to preserve slavery.
Seriously. That’s what these people seem to think. Human rationalization is a wonderful thing, is it not?
Anyway, he writes and says,
Warthen,
Would you please write a column and explain that NO slave was brought to
America under our Confederate Flags but every one, every-one was brought over
under the glorious stars-and-stripes of that time……the stars-and stripes of that
time was and is still my enemy, the union flag….. The flag of that time…………
1860-1865 and on through what you yankees call reconstruction, which was one
hell-of-a-mess for the good folks of the South.Irvin Shuler NEVER ANOTHER APPOMATTOX !!!
So I make the mistake of engaging with him to ask, what on Earth is new about the fact that the slave trade was banned well before 1860? He writes back,
WARTHEN,
There is nothing new in that but please let all "your" reades know they,
those captured overseas and brought here to be sold as slaves, were
brought here on ships flying the damn "stars and stripes" of the glorious
union (of-that-time) and none, not even one, was brought to this country
under the Flag(s) of the Confederacy. Why can’t you print this ????
Are you scared to print the truth…..afraid of Hillary or that damn Osama
Obama, whatever he is ?
Afraid you’ll have to back it up and can’t ……..I understand…….you’ve
been lying to your readers all along.
Thank goodness for those like "Pitchfork Ben Tillman" and Me.Irvin Shuler
Then, I write back,
Why do you think it’s important that the slave trade preceded secession? Of course, it would have to. There would have been no slaves to fight over, otherwise.
The cessation of the slave trade was part of the long, slow movement toward getting rid of slavery. A generation after it ended, abolitionists had set their sights on the next target — the freedom of those who were already here. After Lincoln, who was their candidate (despite his attempts to reassure Southern voters), won the election, South Carolina — which since the battles over the Constitution in the 1780s had been one of the two most vehement defenders of the institution in the Congress — seceded rather than lose those slaves. Other states followed.
This is simple, basic history that everyone knows. Tell you what — I’ll put this on my blog and we’ll see if there was anyone out there who didn’t know it, or who thinks it means what you seem to think it does.
You know what else? Those ships all had sails! So let’s blame the wind for slavery! Only the advent of steamships led to their freedom. That makes about as much sense as what you’re saying about flags.
Halfway through, I chide myself for having wasted so much time, and reflect that it won’t be so bad if I post it on my blog. Which is why I told him I would.
Related Posts
I don’t get how it matters either. If one proclaimed from the Statehouse dome that the slaves imported to South Carolina were brought here on ships that flew the Union flag, how would it change the debate? Besides, I thought the side that wants the flag to stay where it is (or move it back to where it was) thought this whole debate was NOT about slavery. Now it is? Then again, I don’t understand why anyone in 21st Century America would assoicate themselves with Ben Tillman. Although it’s not fair to expect someone in the 19th Century to have complete 21st Century views, I still wouldn’t identify with someone who said things like: “As to his ‘rights’—I will not discuss them now. We of the South have never recognized the right of the negro to govern white men, and we never will. We have never believed him to be equal to the white man, and we will not submit to his gratifying his lust on our wives and daughters without lynching him.”
“Slaves came to America on ships flying the American flag” is to “Current Flag Debate”
as:
“9-11 was an act committed by Muslim extremists” is to “Current military operations in Iraq”
So you’re saying you agree with this guy, bud? Well, that’s disappointing…
The war wasn’t about slavery and freedom. It was about big government and small government. The north wanted big government, the South wanted small government. Please reread your history.
Wow. Revisionism doesn’t even begin to describe Steve’s delusions.
Well, let’s see here now…
“The south seceeded to preserve slavery”…?
Was slavery in fact under some serious attacks? Did the Federal Govt try to eliminate slavery?
No.
In fact, the Corwin Amendment, already ratified by a few northern states proposed slavery forever.
Had the lower tier of Cotton States remained in the Union, I am sure they too, would have ratified said amendment (13th Amendment), if it were really truly totally 100% about slavery and nothing else.
But it wasn’t. Not until 2 years into the conflict.
The upper tier of Cotton States left to protect the lower, after Lincoln called for 75,000 more invaders, not “to preserve slavery”
Yes, Mr Warthen. Yankee ships with US Flags brought slaves here from Africa to northern ports. Slavery was here in America for about 230 years give or take. It was enshrined into our culture, our laws allowed it to flourish, and it was NOT the reason for the WBTS.
The CBF at the SC Confederate Soldiers Monument is simply a war memorial.
Billy, have you read South Carolina’s official causes of secession? You might want to peruse that document and get back to me.
As for the Corwin Amendment — as my link above testifies, Lincoln himself endorsed it, in his effort to keep the Union together. But Southerners did not swallow it. Nor should they have, given their priorities. He WAS the abolitionists’ candidate. Just as everyone knew what the war was about — particularly if they read the causes.
I am aware of what quite a few of the states’ Declarations of Secession read. I will go over the SC version as you suggest again. History is fun and fascinating.
However, the reasons they left and the reason Lincoln attacked were 2 different beasts.
There was nearly what – 2 months of peace after the 7 formed the CSA? Then Lincoln sent a ship to resupply Ft Sumter – an act of aggression and war, forcing the SC Cadets to play thier hand.
Mr Warthen, I would agree with you, if you could just provide the written or spoken words of either the US Congress or of Prez Lincoln from circa April 1861 that says “We are declaring war on the Southern Confederacy because of slavery”
No matter what the ordinances of secession say for any of the Confederate states the issue ultimatly was big centralized government vs. Constitutionally protected states rights. Thanks to Lincolns war the states and the people thereof are now the servants of the government (citizen slaves)instead of the other way around – the way the founders intended.
In Mr Whartons (and most liberals) mythical interpretation of the Constitution we endure the Federal governments tyrinnical acts of gun control, tax funded abortion, private property seizures, GODless schools, un enforceable immigration laws, taxation without representation, insane and one sided hate crime punishments and a host of other laws, restrictions and encroachments on the rights reserved for the PEOPLE.
But thats all oky doky with the Wharton ilk because they have swallowed the “living document” thesis.
Please explain to me Mr. know it all why the most advanced, civilized and coveted Country on earth resorted to waging war and killing more than half a million men(not to mention the tens of thousands of Southern civillians murdered by the likes of Sherman and Sheridan)in order to abolish slavery when the rest of the world ended it peacefully.
If slavery was the only reason for the war explain to me why the South did not accept the Corwin amendment and stay in the Union. If slavery was the only reason for the war explain to me why Lincoln never mentioned it untill well after two years of bloodshed.If aboloshing slavery was the intention behind invading and subjugating the Southern states then why was slavery allowed to continue in the states loyal to the Union for the duration of the war.
“I would rather leave the Union with the Constitution then stay in the Union without it” Jeff Davis
Brad must have gotten a new pair of boots this past weekend… because he’s started kicking that dead horse again.
Slavery wasn’t the only reason for the Civil War– just the primary, overriding, and underlying cause for the southern states seceding and precipitating the war.
Economics also played an important role. The southern states were dependent on an agricultural economy– which, in turn, was slavery-based.
It’s a tribute to the willful blindness of a few nostalgic revisionists that you can attribute so many “ills” of the USA today to the triumph of the USA in 1865. Personally, I’ll take the words of explanation approved by the SC Secession Convention in 1860 over the modern wishful white washing of a cause dedicated to keep fellow humans enslaved.
BTW, who is “Mr. Wharton?”
Ready To Hurl – You might want to check out the dates that the industrial revolution began… about the same time as the civil war began. Slavery would have died out naturally since slave owners would have realized it was cheaper to purchase and use machinery than to purchase and use slave labor. Slaves would have been about as useful as a mule or draft horse.
It’s bleeding-heart people like you and “Mr.Wharton” who keep this alive more so than the defenders of the Confederate flag, I guess people like the two of you don’t have much else going on in your life other than to complain and hope people listen.
Yep, I’m a “bleeding heart” because I think that owning people and appropriating the results of their labor is immoral.
Since you obviously think that slavery is just another unremarkable economic feature of 19th Century capitalism– like mules or draft horses or child labor– what does that make you?
What exactly makes you think that slavery couldn’t have been adapted to factory labor as well as producing rice, cotton or indigo?
I complain when people like yourself try to make-up history to suit their biases and pet causes. Otherwise some ignorant reader might actually take you seriously.
Well let’s just say at the time of slavery in this country (1600’s to 1865), slavery was not illegal. Whether or not it was immoral is irrelevant, some people think drinking alcohol or smoking is immoral, it was legal at the time just like livestock ownership is legal today. Slaves were brought to this country by ships flying the US flag, slave were sold and bought by US citizens from the poor dirt farmer to freed slave (yes blacks also owned slaves) to US presidents up and down the east coast. Yet you try to get people to believe that it was just a “white southern thing” and that the northern states weren’t participants.
I guess you think that the industrial revolution just meant farming. Why would slavery have been adapted to factory labor (which it wasn’t)? The majority of the industrial revolution was the modernization of factories to replace workers with machines.
You say I’m trying to “make-up history to suit their biases and pet causes”. The same thing could be said about ignorant people on the other side (such as yourself) who think they need to re-write history to suit their biases and pet causes. You’d rather sugar coat history than view it as it really was.
RTH – Do you buy anything made in China? Much of their labor force is made up of “slave labor” as you would label it. Do you buy fruits and vegetables in the supermarket? Would hiring illegal aliens and paying them sub-minimum wages with no benefits and house them in shacks on your property constitute slave labor in your mind? You better start planting a garden, raising your own livestock, sewing your own clothes and providing your own entertainment if you’re not going to purchase items produced by “slave labor”. Because “slave labor” in your sense of the term is not dead by any means… it’s just a sugar-coated version.
Every time I see the Confederate flag flying above a mobile home I wince, yet the thought of seeing the Confederate flag on State House grounds doesn’t bother me at all.
What strikes me as a racist statement in one context impresses me only as a historical reference in the other.
Why so many people think it’s such an important issue, especially when the presence of that flag in its current position at the State House represents a compromise between yeas and the nays, I can’t understand.
But one part of the overall argument does come to me crystal clear.
The NCAA’s position on the flag just brings up states’ rights again.
And somehow, the issue of same-sex marriage is easier for people to stomach as a states’ rights issue than a piece of red cloth with a blue X and white stars on it.
What a weird species humans are.
Every time I see the Confederate flag flying above a mobile home I wince, yet the thought of seeing the Confederate flag on State House grounds doesn’t bother me at all.
What strikes me as a racist statement in one context impresses me only as a historical reference in the other.
Why so many people think it’s such an important issue, especially when the presence of that flag in its current position at the State House represents a compromise between yeas and the nays, I can’t understand.
But one part of the overall argument does come to me crystal clear.
The NCAA’s position on the flag just brings up states’ rights again.
And somehow, the issue of same-sex marriage is easier for people to stomach as a states’ rights issue than a piece of red cloth with a blue X and white stars on it.
What a weird species humans are.
Once again, Michael Rodgers, we see what a long long way you still have to go in Columbia, South Carolina.
If the Confederacy favored small government and government by the the people, for the people, how do we get to the current paradox where the the flying Confederate Flag at the Peoples’ State House represents oppression to a significant percentage of the citizens of the state?
On a related tangent, the continuing tone of the dialog confirms my inference that the Confederate Flag is now uniquely symbolic of perceived oppression by Both its proponents and its opponents.
All,
Some people love the Confederate flag and others … not so much. Let’s discuss the Confederate Memorial, which is wonderful except for one thing.
See, the RELEVANT TOPIC FOR DEBATE is, as Billy Beardon stated, “The CBF at the SC Confederate Soldiers Monument is simply a war memorial.” The statement is not correct, not because of any symbolism about the flag and not because of any analysis of history. The statement is not correct because the flag is FLYING from a FLAGPOLE on the STATEHOUSE grounds.
Flying the Confederate flag from a flagpole on the Statehouse grounds is wildly inappropriate, to say the least. To say more, I submit that flying the Confederate flag from a flagpole on the Statehouse grounds is A HORRIBLE WAY to memorialize the ENORMOUS SACRIFICE of the Confederate soldiers and their families. Flying the flag says that they DIED IN VAIN because we MOURN FOR WHAT THEY FAILED TO ACHIEVE. SC is still an important state in the US, isn’t it?
I think that the Confederate soldiers and their families achieved a lot. We are a more unified nation where, as the historian Shelby Foote said, people say “The United States is ….” instead of “The United States are ….” We debate State’s rights, and we stay true to the US Constitution. Also, we now have the Emancipation Proclamation, the 13th-15th amendments, and many other things that make our republican democracy great.
Let’s get together and get our elected leaders to take the Confederate flag off the flagpole on the Statehouse grounds. We should get it displayed in the State Museum — doing so will be a great achievement so that everyone can see and remember the historical importance of the flag and the enormous sacrifice of the people who carried it in battle.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
People say this issue (the FLYING flag issue) is a dead horse we keep beating. Really? Who FLIES the flag every day from the STATEHOUSE grounds? Our SC legislature, that’s who. So every new day, they are doing something wrong that also offends many citizens they represent and offends many people and governments that us citizens want to do business with. Oh, it’s not important, you say, it’s just a FLYING FLAG on the STATEHOUSE GROUNDS. In effect you say, “Hey, I just ignore it and go about my life, and we should all just ignore it, except when we remembering our heritage … well, my heritage. Anyway, you and everyone else should just shut up, because there are more important issues like the definition of the word ‘marriage’!”
Let me tell you how important this issue is, by way of an analogy. See, in the area governed by Palestinians, an election was held and Hamas won. Think, is there any amount of good deeds that Hamas can do that will get the world community to support them? No? Why not? Because their charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Hamas says, to the effect, “Oh, let’s ignore that for now, it’s not important, it’s just a few words in our charter, let’s just ignore those words because we’re really good at all these great things we’re doing. We won’t retract those words, but we’re too busy right now doing humanitarian governance, so you should just ignore those words and give us lots of money, because we have the power we got through the ballot box (and with some gunfire and ….).”
So, is the international community wrong to treat Hamas with disdain? Should we in SC be surprised when nobody wants to deal with us and when all of us citizens spend all our time in shame, stuck in the shadow of the FLYING Confederate flag.
It is incredibly difficult to ignore and to move past DEFINING issues. Words WRITTEN in a charter and flags FLYING from the Statehouse grounds are DEFINING issues. Sometimes these DEFINING issues CAN be ignored. For example, Atlanta was known, and proudly called itself, the “city too busy to hate” — meaning that the most important color was the green of the money, not the hue of anyone’s skin. I submit that we should deal with the FLYING flag issue sooner rather than later. When we truly move past this issue, by getting the flag down from the flagpole on the Statehouse grounds (from where it is FLYING), we can honor the Confederate soldiers and their families, and we can learn from history.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Y’all
The same things the enemies of the FLYING Flag say now about the SC CBF, they said in Mississippi. Mississippi had a flag vote, it won by 2/3rds, and the enemies were proven wrong. They said the same about the old 1956 Georgia flag – “bad for business, oppression, etc…” Georgia caved and changed the flag. Under the changed flag (Barnes 2001) many huge multi national corporations left Georgia. Mercedes Benz refused to build in Georgia. Schools dropped from 49th to 50th, the economy tanked, and life sucked. The appeasers were 3/4ths removed from office and the Ga Democratic Party self imploded for the next 7 generations. Once again the enemies were totally wrong, but politicians eat that bovine excrement up like it was chocolate cake. Now they sing that same old tired song in SC.
To all concerned,
Let it be known, I will continue to fly the Confederate Flag on my car door window, on the clothing I wear and anyplace else I can think of. I wear it and display it unhesitatingly in ALL PLACES without regard for my personal safety. I have been threatened by enemies and warned by faint-hearted friends, but, I will not be dissuaded. I will not be ridiculed or lectured to by individuals who can’t keep their pants pulled up or whose piercings would activate every metal detector in the airport. I find this approach to be an effective method for rallying support from people who are too afraid to act on their own. I encourage everyone with similar sentiments to be as brazen as their stomach will permit. It is apathy and cowardice that has allowed our adversaries to gain so much ground. Appeasement will only serve to produce more demands from our detractors. In spite of what Michael Rodgers says he would like to accomplish, there are many others who will not stop until there is no longer any remnant of the Confederacy. I suggest, if the attempts to remove the Battle Flag from the Courthouse grounds are successful, patriotic Southerners should pitch in together to purchase a prominent plot of land in the most conspicuous place in the center of town or along the freeway and erect the tallest flagpole permissable with the largest Battle Flag possible and hoist it high over Columbia. It will then be protected by laws governing private property and therefore beyond the reach of Brad and his cronies.
Stand up and be recognized today or be relegated to the shadows tomorrow.
Cowtown Rebel,
I will be happy to make a donation to your land purchase plan, and I will be happy to have lunch or dinner with you at Maurice’s BBQ — might I suggest the one across from Sesquicentenial State Park? We can work together to get the flying flag from the public Statehouse property, where its flying is making an offensive and shameful mockery of the honorable Confederate soldiers, to private property, where its flying can be a statement of what you and the private owners want it to be. I will also work to get the flag displayed at the State Museum, so that visitors can see it and remember its importance. Thanks for all.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Billy Bearden,
Ahh, power and economics, enemies and appeasers. Might makes right, and any attempts to do the right thing (moving the flying flag from the Statehouse grounds) will cause economic and political calamity for SC. Yes, yes, it’s interesting, what you’re saying.
OK, back to the issue: Should the SC legislature continue the STATEHOUSE FLYING OF THE CBF?
The STATEHOUSE FLYING OF THE CBF is supposed to encourage SC citizens to celebrate and to honor the Confederate soldiers. Does it get us to focus on history and sacrifice? No, it asks us to think about the following questions: Should I salute? Should I pledge allegiance? Is my state government not part of the US? When someone prominent dies, should we lower the flag to half mast? How can it be historical if it’s flying? What’s the ceremony? Where’s the parade on Confederate Memorial Day? Why are the neo-Nazis the only ones parading? If the Confederate soldiers did not achieve the objective of the Confederacy, then did they die in vain?
Is the current situation what you want? You want no parades on Confederate Memorial Day? No fireworks? You want to feel threatened when you wear or otherwise display the CBF? You want the neo-Nazis to be the only ones actually celebrating the Confederate soldiers? You want everyone to shut up about the STATEHOUSE FLYING OF THE CBF? You want a large number of people to feel animosity instead of respect when they view the Confederate Memorial?
If SC would stop the STATEHOUSE FLYING OF THE CBF, we could all celebrate the Confederate Memorial, Confederate Memorial Day, and the enormous sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers and their families. I firmly and sincerely believe that more people would celebrate, remember, honor, and respect the Confederate soldiers and their families if SC would stop the STATEHOUSE FLYING OF THE CBF.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
There is some serious picking of nits going on here, light years away from mainstream thought. But what would you expect when the issue is merely a symbol, albeit an outmoded one?
My dear Michael Rodgers,
With all due respect sir, you can’t be naive enough to believe that if you take down the Confederate Battle Flag from the monument on the Courthouse grounds all of the controversy will subside. Are you going to honestly tell me that you believe once The Flag is taken down, everyone will celebrate the Confederacy and that there will once again be parades and fireworks on Confederate Memorial Day. I don’t know who you claim to represent, but, it must be a very confused group of people. I don’t say that to be offensive, but, I don’t think you have as firm a grasp on this issue as you seem to believe you do.
I would be delighted to converse with you over a BBQ feast, however, distance and a lack of financial wherewithall prevent me from accepting that invitation.
Brad,
Where are my manners? I should answer your question before saying anything else. I apologize, and I will get right to it.
Yes, they really think it’s a good point, and they do so because they imagine the following exchange:
Brad: I want the CBF down because it flew over a regime that supported slavery.
They: The USA flag flew over a regime that supported slavery. Are you calling for us to take down the USA flag too or are you a hypocrite? I think you’re a hypocrite and I don’t ever have to listen to you ever again and no one should. I win.
OK, so, is there a real issue here? No. I want to stop the Statehouse FLYING of the CBF because the CBF shouldn’t be FLYING there because it is neither the flag of the state of SC nor the flag of the USA. That’s all. There’s nothing arbitrary, capricious, or hypocritical about this position.
Best Regards,
Michael Rodgers,
Columbia, SC
Cowtown Rebel and Weldon VII,
Since I want to stop the Statehouse flying of the Confederate flag, some people think I must be coming from a perspective that routinely (and also unwisely and incorrectly, in my opinion) calls the supporters of the CBF racists. So, perhaps, the assumption that I make (that the vast majority of the people who like the Confederate flag are not any more racist than anyone else in the USA) is unexpected. Please let me repeat my pledge: I will never call Confederate flag supporters racists.
I don’t think it’s picking nits to clarify the difference between government and people and betwen government and soldier. I object to my state government flying the CBF from a flagpole on the Statehouse grounds. I don’t object to anyone or any company flying it on their own grounds. I question the Davis administration and the Bush administration, and I respect the Confederate soldiers and the USA soldiers.
People will forever debate the meaning of the CBF and the battles, statements, and motivations of the Civil War. I certainly don’t expect, nor do I want, to end the debate. I just want to respect and honor the soldiers, who were motivated to do what they saw as their duty. Was the idea of perpetuating an economic system based on slavery the key motivator for each and every Confederate soldier who fought during the Civil War? Let me answer that with the following question: Is the idea of perpetuating an economic system based on oil the key motivator for each and every USA soldier who fought (and keeps fighting) during the War in Iraq?
Supporting soldiers while questioning government is absolutely mainstream. Having parades and fireworks to celebrate state holidays is absolutely mainstream. What, some state and national holidays are supposed to be ignored because they are only for some of us and not for all of us? Who says? It’s not really a good example, but in my experience, everybody’s Irish on St. Patrick’s Day. I really don’t see why people wouldn’t celebrate the Confederate soldiers on Confederate Memorial Day; perhaps they won’t celebrate the Davis administration; perhaps they won’t celebrate the Declaration of Secession; but they will celebrate, honor, and remember the sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers and their families, if we let them.
The SC legislature’s “compromise” was a quick and divisive “one for us, one for them” decision that didn’t get the proper hearing from the citizens. The SC legislature seemed to think that their “compromise” spin of 2000 would quell all of the controversy. Who’s naive? No offense, SC Legislature – I love you guys! Anything that happens quickly by force, without suitable time for debate, agreement, true compromise, and face-saving stories will engender bitter hatred and long-lasting controversy.
I am absolutely positive that an enormous amount of political controversy will subside if we take down the CBF from flagpole at the monument on the Statehouse grounds in a statesman-like way that respects and honors the Confederate soldiers and their families. Now whether or not the CBF comes down soon and properly is an open question which I intend to work hard to answer. As JH MacDonald patiently and insistently reminds me, I have a lot of work to do. And I’ll need help.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Michael Rodgers,
I will be the first to admit that your approach and rhetoric are unique. However, I am still not willing to give in to any calls for the removal of The Flag. There is simply too much at stake to risk allowing even one more concession to the historical revisionists. Everyone is Irish on Saint Patricks’ Day? Yes, the same way all of the Amerinds celebrate Columbus Day. No matter how idealistic and utopian, that is simply not the case.
You question secession and the Davis administration. Do you also question The Declaration of Independence and the Lincoln government? Secession came about as a result of an intolerable tax burden. The same reason the thirteen colonies broke away from England. Have you ever heard of the Nullification Crisis or the Tariff of Abominations? This took place forty years before the Civil War and had nothing to do with slavery. Lincoln was willing to sign into law the Corwin Amendment, which would have protected slavery in the States where it existed. But, he said he would send in the troops to collect the customs duties.
I noticed that Brad has an archive of previous posts. I also noted that the “How Was Your Confederate Memorial Day?” segment is missing. I wonder if it has anything to do with too many unsettling facts and ideas being presented that effectively countered his preconceived notions of equity.
Brad & co.
My error, I overlooked the archive mentioned above. I extend my apologies for my oversight. But, I hope I have sparked some renewed interest in this previous debate, prompting the curious to peruse its’ contents. It can be found in the May 2007 archive “How Was Your Confederate Memorial Day”?
“Preconceived notions of equity”
Cowtown, what does that mean in the context of this discussion over whether a flag that is not representative of the federal, state, county or municipal governments should be flying on the State House grounds in Columbia, SC?
I suspect that your suggestion to fly the largest CBF on the tallest pole on “private property” is not contrary to the thesis of Michael Rodgers and probably not that of the blog master.
They seem to be opposed to the CBF being flown on what purports to be the State House of all “current” citizens of SC, as opposed to it being the State House of just one race or one clan or one lineage.
I suggest that there is a difference between what symbolic flag you choose to display on your house, your car, your lapel or your T-shirt versus the symbolic flag that a representative Government chooses to fly on the Capitol grounds of a given State.
JH MacDonald,
Yes, with your help and observations, I think we have done away with the capriciousness argument. Now, the power and perception arguments remain. Cowtown Rebel describes how he would be reasonable and agree with your simple rule, but something holds him back from getting to, what I would call, Step 2. Step 1 is about power. Step 2 is about rationality and agreement. How can we get Cowtown Rebel to Step 2?
Power Parable:
A boy was thirsty, so he asked his father for a drink, saying, “You’re the worst father ever, you ignorant, racist, pig, and whether or not you get me a drink as you should, I will curse you ’til the day I die and always tell everyone that you’re awful.” The father, wanting to be rational and to come to agreement with his son about proper fatherhood and childcare, and wanting to please his son and care for his need for a drink, still refrained from providing the drink by saying, “Of course I want to be a good father and take care of you. When you ask nicely, after you serve your timeout for being so rude, then I will consider giving you a drink.”
Power. The flag is currently up, and we who want the flag down are powerless. How do the powerless get what they want from the powerful?
First, it helps to be right, which we are. We have seen to that with figuring out the why to our request. We want to stop the Statehouse flying of the CBF because the only flags flying should be the state flag of SC and the USA flag. That position is correct and non-capricious.
Second, it helps to ask nicely, and, moreover, it is crucial to have the credibility to make sure that the powerful know that we will also respond nicely after the fact. Cowtown Rebel is astounded that I would ask nicely, and he is impressed, but he still doubts my credibility (no offense taken, by the way — having such doubt seems reasonable to me).
Third, it is wise to point out what’s in it for them. Doing so helps them want what we want and it also helps build the credibility mentioned above. By describing a future that we all want, we also assure the powerful that we will be gracious and thankful when they do the thing we ask.
This discussion leads to the third barrier — perception. People get very passionate about their feelings about the CBF. As you wisely discovered and said, both the supporters and the opposers have these feelings, AND it makes sense that they do. When the powerful finally stop the Statehouse flying of the CBF, many people will accuse them of “caving in to the liberals and the NAACP, people who don’t deserve such kindness and who will never stop asking for things while acting like victims, when we’re the true victims” and many other people will accuse them of “finally doing the right thing despite their ignorant and racist nature.” The perceptions must be managed carefully, constantly, and concertedly.
Fairly Current Events:
Israel pulled out of Gaza, which was absolutely the right thing to do. The decision to do it was very difficult nonetheless because Israel knew that Hamas would vociferously declare Israel’s departure a defeat for Israel and a victory for Islamists.
Well, as you correctly say, there is a lot of work to do. One down, two to go. I think I’ve figured out how to ask nicely and how to begin to earn credibility. I’ve got a lot of earning to do, and I need to put the pieces in place so that the perception is managed properly. Whew, it really helps that we’re right.
Thanks for all.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Cowtown Rebel,
You asked, “Do you also question The Declaration of Independence and the Lincoln government?”
Ahh, when is independence justified? When is secession justified? And what’s the difference? These are good questions. And I don’t have (any?) all the answers. Yes, we can think historically about events in the USA — both the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. And we can think currently about events in Serbia/Kosovo, China/Taiwan, Russia/Chechnya and other places.
Canada, Australia, and India are all free from British rule. Czechoslovakia split peacefully into The Czech Republic and Slovakia. Scotland and Wales are working politically for independence (or is it secession?) from the UK. War isn’t the only way to independence, and the death and destruction of war are horrible. I don’t like war.
Well, I like the Declaration of Independence, and I don’t like the Declaration of Secession. I see the similarities that were sought by the writers of the Declaration of Secession, but it doesn’t work for me. I think that the Southern states had more recourse available to them, and that the courts would likely have been on their side. Going to war was not the right thing to do for either side.
On the other hand, and with hindsight, I find that both the Civil War and the Revolutionary War were inevitable. I am very glad that Lincoln did what he did to keep the USA together after secession, and I am very happy about the conduct of Gen. Lee and the Confederate soldiers, to whom I offer my respect and admiration.
Yes, I question the Lincoln administration and especially the conduct of Gen. Sherman. And I question the efforts at reconstruction in the South. I hope that our current government will find a way to learn from the mistakes of the distant and recent past to figure out how to manage the reconstruction in Iraq.
Well, briefly, those are my thoughts on your question. It’s been great hearing your point of view and engaging in all these monologues and dialogues.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Michael Rodgers
As you continue your quest and your dialogue, I respectfully ask that you ponder your semantics and your word choices.
You have spoken eloquently to the “We and They” trap and the flaws of the “One for Them and One for Us” mentality. In the writings of others above, you will note the continued use of the words: war, battle and enemy. That is usually followed by comments on intelligence or lack thereof and then rehashing of moral indescretions of the other side’s leaders. [see this week’s US News & World Report]
I ask you not to create the additional camps of the Powerful and the Powerless. I do not think that this is an issue of power, per se. I would like to think it is an issue of common sense and progress and inclusiveness being favored over divisiveness. Regardless of what definition of Power you choose to use, I would like you to keep in mind that there are many people who favor the respectful removal of the flying CBF from the State House who do not view themselves as powerless and by any measure are, indeed, not powerless. By the same token, some of the flag proponents evince an usual sense of chagrin over the apparent power of uncontrollable events over their lives and those of their ancestors.
I argue that that Power vs. Powerless is not the language that will lead to resolving the phenomenon of having a Flag flying on the Capitol Grounds that is symbolic of neither the country, the state, the county nor the city. That site is CURRENTLY the property of all South Carolinians. It is not separately the property of white South Carolinians, black South Carolinians, nor ancestors of soldiers who fought or died in the Civil War.
The CBF does not represent ALL South Carolinians. It should not be flying on the Capitol Grounds. I am aware that the legislature voted to fly the flag in its current location as a purported Compromise. If that is part of the basis of the flag advocates’ position, I suggest that you ask them to ponder the entirety of the Decisions made by the legislature in the past few years and consider the liklihood that the legislature “ocassionally” makes mistakes.
In closing, I speculate that you are more powerful than you think. You have the courage and the power of your convictions and eventually you will prevail.
JH MAcDonald,
You say the Confederate Battle Flag does not represent all South Carolinians. Do you think that you do? I would say it is a fine representation of all South Carolinians whose lineage goes back to those times. Why don’t you advocate the approach taken by Mississippi? Put the issue up for a State wide vote. You know, as well as I do, what the overwhelming response would be. The people would vote to keep Their Flag. So, I couldn’t see either you or Michael Rodgers accepting this truly Democratic solution.
You speak of the power of convictions. My friend, you haven’t seen anything. I spend most of my spare time fighting to undo the damage folks like you have done. I read constantly to hone my arguments with facts that cut through all of the stereotypes. My campaign is not limited to the blogosphere.
I interact with the public on a regular basis. I find I can be fairly persuasive. It’s kind of funny. Often times people will come up to me and tell me something that I had told them a short time before. They remember hearing it, but, they don’t always remember who they heard it from. But, the important thing is, they are spreading the message.
With the Lords’ help, We shall overcome.
Deo Vindice
Cowtown Rebel
I hope that your pithy closing is not truly intended to imply that God is in favor of flying the CBF on the grounds of the South Carolina State House. Never could there be more proof in favor of Deus absconditus.
Since your entry is once again addressed to me, I must inquire as to your meaning when you say,”…damage that folks like (me) have done”.
Have I damaged someone by advocating in favor of the simple premise: “No permanent flying flags on government property other than those of the government”? Seems pretty simple to me. Who is being damaged?
If no non governmental entity gets special treatment, then we do not have to debate whether it is possible for one flag to symbolize virtue to some and oppression to others.
As you previously suggested, everyone is free to fly whatever flag they want on THEIR OWN property.
Did you read this week’s US News & World Report yet? I suggest that it provides support for the argument that it is dangerous to blindly idolize the heroes of the past. All men, including General Lee, were, and are, capable of virtue and capable of cruelty.
Learn from the past, Cowtown, but live in the here and now. The War Between the States is over. Why are you trying to start a new War Between the Classes?
Dominus vobiscum, as they say, Rebel.
JH MacDonald,
Ah, versed in Latin I see. Well that seems to verify my assumptions about your educational background. Your silence in regards to your income, birthplace and other personal information speaks volumes. It is a sign that you are defensive about these things. Probably because you are afraid of what I could reveal about you or the section of the country you hail from.
Unfortunately, I do live in the present and I am thoroughly disgusted with most of what I see. I use the lessons of the past to combat the miserable realities of the present.
Yes, you have helped to damage others. You have aided in the poisoning of the minds of scores of Southern children who have been taught to regard their ancestors with contempt. The Politically Correct Crowd has been very successful in teaching the past couple of generations to see beauty in everyones’ heritage but their own, which they have learned to view as cruel and inhumane at best.
No, I haven’t read this weeks US News & World report yet. But, at your urging, I will be sure to do so. I wonder if it says anything about “blindly idolizing” an adulterous, plagiaristic, communist who has been misrepresented as the only person in the history of the country worthy of having a holiday named for him exclusively.
Yes, I do believe God supports the flying of the Cross of Saint Andrew on the Statehouse grounds. It is, afterall, a Christian symbol. I am also certain that he would condone the display of the Ten Commandments on Government property. I can’t imaging that he would express concern that some athiest might be offended.
I see you didn’t address the idea of putting the issue up for a vote. Was this intentional or an oversight?
Whoa, slow down, Cowtown. You’ve carrying a lot of baggage, and I want to help. You’re upset because you feel your way of life, your ancestry, your heritage, your past, present, and future are all under attack. I understand your frustration with the situation and your dedication and your determination to challenge this situation. I too want the situation to change, and I want people to see and recognize the courage, honor and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers and their families.
Can you see that it is the SC legislature and others who are putting their own political spin on this issue in order to get your dander up? Are they looking out for you? Really? Really? Really?
You’re being used. They’re exploiting your honest and admirable love of God, duty, and your heritage to advance their own agenda. The people you are fighting against are also being used. There’s another way for all of us. There is another way.
Let’s work together to accomplsh what we want. Which do you want? The respect and honor for Confederate soldiers and their families or the Statehouse flying of the CBF? The second is a means to an end, and it is actually a horrible means that leads us on a divisive path that will never get us to the first. The first is the true goal, and the goal is admirable, responsible, and unifying.
Is the Statehouse flying of the CBF part of the Confederate Memorial or not? If you saw it, you would see that it is not. Check out the following page (accessed today Sunday July 1, 2007):
http://www.scstatehouse.gov/studentpage/rebmon.htm
You can’t even see the flag in that picture, because it is behind, and separate from, the monument.
The inscriptions are beautiful, by the way. The words call for us to remember, with respect and admiration, the Confederate soldiers and their families. I am telling you that I “recognize that these were men whom power could not corrupt, whom death could not terrify, whom defeat could not dishonor.”
We will get the SC Legislature to stop the Statehouse flying of the CBF in a way that honors the Confederate soldiers and their families. This is what we are called to do.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
JH MacDonald,
Thanks for your post. I will continue to work on my description of the issue and my prescription for resolution.
You said, “I am aware that the legislature voted to fly the flag in its current location as a purported Compromise. If that is part of the basis of the flag advocates’ position, ….”
I think that it is a big part of the advocates’ position. I figure that “speaking truth to power” is the way to go, but perhaps something else is better. For me, first, I see that the truth is that the Confederate soldiers and their families deserve our respecct and admiriation. And, second, I see that the truth is that the Statehouse flying of the CBF is a divisive action that detracts from the first.
Thanks for all.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Cowtown,
Attacking MLK doesn’t make sense to me — he called for love, responsibility, unity, and political action, and he was assissinated for his leadership. Sure he had his faults — everyone has some faults. I think we would all rather be remembered for our dedication to duty and for our leadership and for our sacrifice and for our inspiration and for our innovation and for our love and for our kindness than for any of our faults.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Michael Rodgers,
I wasn’t as much attacking MLK, as I was pointing out that he was far from being the saint we are led to believe he was. Why is it that, when Confederate Icons are trashed by the media and academia everyone jumps on the bandwagon and all of the positive contributions they have made are dismissed as being insufficient to compensate for the horrible attrocities they allegedly committed. But, when the truth of the unsavory characteristics of the darlings of the left are revealed, they are shrugged off as being inconsequential.
I am no fan of Timothy McVeigh. But, I think it is notable that he was put to death and two former members of the infamous leftwing radical organization The Weathermen, who served time in a Federal Penitentiary, are now professors in college where they share their pride in their actions with impressionable young people. These people are unrepentant and yet they are in positions of tremendous influence.
It is these types of circumstances that leave me asking, WHO IS looking out for us?
Cowtown Rebel
I suggest that the purpose of these exchanges is to be exposed to the ideas of others and to use them to refine one’s own theories and worldview.
If I present you with ideas that are cogently expressed for you to think about and then agree, refute or parse, have I not contributed to the dialogue?
Why do you want to attack me personally or question my heritage or income or political leanings? I am not trying to buy you or convert you. I am trying to express simple ideas that can be universally applied with the intended result of unifying the populace, rather than dividing it.
I have told you before that I have no interest and no need to dissuade you from admiring whatever Confederate Icons you are referring to in your last post. My questions and my suggestions have nothing to do with that.
You have recently included the concepts of the 10 Commandments and the St. Andrew connection in this discussion of the flying of the CBF on the Capitol Grounds. These are red herrings that only distract from the simple issue, just like your need to refer to MLK Day and MLK’s social decisions. You are falling into the “One for US and One for THEM” quicksand, again. Stop whining like a victim.
My worldview includes the New Testament as yours apparently does; however, I do not feel compelled to advocate for the placement of our religious symbols on the Capitol Grounds. Similarly, I do not favor the flying of your CBF on the Capitol Grounds of SC.
There should be no flying flags on the State House grounds other than those of the country, state, county or city. Fly your flag and place your commandments on your own personal or private society property. Seems pretty simple to me.
To suggest how wrong you may be about the inferences you draw from our exchanges, I want you to know that I am looking out of my office window as I write and I am viewing 3 things on the central green in my town which is owned by a private charitable trust: 1] the grounds keeping crew that is grooming it; 2] the American Flag waiving over it; and, 3] the soldier standing atop the Civil War Memorial in the southeast corner!
What long term gain to you or whoever you consider to be your people do you see from opposing or discouraging a guy like Michael Rodgers? Why isn’t it smarter to encourage him? Wouldn’t Columbia and SC be better off and better equipped with a broader population of people who can think, debate and even disagree intelligently and civilly without resorting to pettiness and stridency? I think that is the smarter path for selfish reasons and for magnanimous reasons.
JH MacDonald,
You and Michael Rodgers are idealists. There is nothing initially wrong with idealism. It is what has driven men to envision and strive for a better quality of life for humanity.
The problem with idealism is, it can only go so far before it runs head on into reality.
Ideally, Sunnis and Shiites, Bosnians and Serbians, Hutus and Tutsis and all the other antagonists of the World should be able to sit down, break bread and live in peace. This is not reality.
Nor, is it realistic to expect to be able to gather all of the refugees from these conflicts within our warm and loving embrace and have them reciprocate by checking their prejudices at the door and automatically assimilate themselves.
We, instead, find that Muslims want to force us to submit to Islamic law; Mexicans want us to print everything is Spanish; Asians create their own ethnic enclaves with businesses that cater exclusively to them; and all of these people feel that, in some way, this country hasn’t been fair to them. This is Diversity and this is reality.
In the mind of an idealist, worshipping Christ, Bhudda and poking pins in voodoo dolls all have equal merit. The idealist mocks concern for the ethnic makeup of the country by insisting that everyone can become an American. The Founding Fathers were certainly not of that opinion. All of them, at various times, pointed out that some peoples were not good candidates for citizenship.
But, because it seems ideal, we are told we can teach the World to sing in perfect harmony if we buy the World a Coke and keep it company. That is ridiculous and utterly unachievable.
What we can do, however, is destroy our own country by refusing to acknowledge that a nation is made up of people speaking a common language with fairly similiar perspectives and a shared history.
How is income and place of residence pertinent to this discussion? That should be obvious. But allow me to explain. Money can provide a great deal of insulation from reality. A person of above average income can often afford to live in a neighborhood where the crime rate is low and, if there are any minorities, they are not criminally inclined. Business professionals and college professors don’t inhabit regions where the people next door are blaring Gangsta’ Rap and Tejano music at top volume day and night; where the Police won’t help and where complaining could get you shot.
That’s okay. Because, the pace of change is rapidly accelerating. Go ahead and lobby to take down The Flag; support efforts to remove the Ten Commandments from government property; petition to allow any and every reject from all corners of the Globe to come here; But, don’t be suprised when you begin to feel like a foriegner in your own country.
I have not the time to read all of the comments made concerning this topic but I want to make sure everyone is aware the United States Constitution protected the Institutioin of Slavery from it”s inseption!
Article 1 Section 2 Clause 3, instructes states to count slaves in determining the number of Representatives they would be allowed in Congress.
Article 1 Section 8 Clause 15, provides for calling out the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress insurrections, and repel invasions.
Article 4 Section 2 Clause 3 states that no person held to Service or Labor in one state shall be relieved of that Service or Labor if he escapes to another state but must be returned to the state from which he escaped.
Read them yourself in the U. S. Constitution!
Ed Butler
Yeah, that’s right. I hope everyone here knows that. The Southern states would not agree to the Constitution without such provisions, but the Northern ones didn’t want Southerners fully counting all those slaves (there were more slaves in SC than free men) in computing representation in Congress, or presidential electors.
I don’t get what your point is. How does that bear upon the fact that neither side was terribly comfortable with the compromises, and eventually the North and South were so far apart on the issues that, upon Lincoln’s election, the South split off.
And what does “inseption” mean? Is that like a medical term, referring to the moment at which an infection sets in?
Thank you all again for the nuanced history and constitutional law opinions.
As to the point under discussion: There should be NO flags flying on government property other than those of the CURRENT federal, state, county and/or municipal government.
Flags that are symbolic of individual families, clubs, clans, yacht clubs, ethnic heritage, fraternities, rainbow coalitions, football teams, race car drivers and battle groups can and should be displayed on their proponents’ own property.
It’s a simple answer to a complicated debate.
i am a canadian and from what i have read on coments the south should split from the union asap bleeding hearted ignorant northern liberals are destroying the nation . i could go on and on about why the world cannot stand your arrogance and ignorance and lack of intelegence. at least , and thank god the south has the guts to stand up for itself and has good morals.i cannot believe that to this day the yanks believe the war was about slavery. it just goes to show you thatthey still think they can control your thoughts,and feed you garbage.