Cindi Scoppe continues in her lonely quest to inject some reason, and actual facts, into state tax policy. Today, she cites the Tax Foundation, the group that dreamed up the silly “Tax Freedom Day,” in reporting that what our lawmakers have so long sought is now fact — we have the lowest taxes in the nation:
THE TAX Foundation’s latest rankings of state taxes are out, and we’re No. 50. As in, no state collects less in taxes per resident than South Carolina does.
If that surprises you, then you’ve come to the right place. Much of what we think we know about taxes in our state is simply wrong. And while people are entitled to whatever opinion they want about whether taxes are too high or too low or just right, those opinions ought to be based on facts.
Of course, No. 50 isn’t the whole story. Anyone who tries to tell you that a single number sums up tax rankings is misleading you. This particular ranking, for instance, doesn’t include taxes collected by local government, which makes it not quite but nearly meaningless, since the division between state and local duties varies so much from state to state.
In the more useful ranking, which counts both state and local taxes, we’re No. 49.
And both of those rankings just compare total taxes collected to the state’s population. That means they are telling us as much about how poor we are as about how low our taxes are.
Our tax rate — which is the percentage of our total income that we pay in taxes — ranks 43rd. That means seven states have a lower tax rate than we do. (Our income, by the way, is $33,954 per capita, which ranks 46th nationally. Not something to celebrate no matter what you think about taxes.)…
So, all that constant ratcheting-down of taxes over the past couple of decades “worked” — if having the lowest taxes was the goal.
Now, could we stop, please? And stop also having the most poorly funded essential services in the nation? And stop lagging behind the nation in pretty much every measure of economic health you can name? Please?
As we say in the Grownup Party — enough, already.
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Amen Brad. Or Amen Cindi I guess I should say. PLEASE preach on.
I agree. We need to strive to become more like states such as beautiful New Jersey or sunny Michigan – you know, all those states that young families and retirees are flocking towards to find a lower cost of living and a better quality of life.
“As we say in the Grownup Party — enough, already.”
Do you ever get tired of talking down to people?
Yes we all know you’re much smarter than us, you’re more civilized than the rest of us, your opinions mean much more than ours do, etc…
You need to get over yourself.
The state has to have low taxes, otherwise there’d be little reason to live here.
So who do you want to tax more: the uneducated, unemployed, low income people or…. yeah I know who.
How much more are YOU willing to pony up?
More. Sorry, I don’t have a number in mind. I know that always frustrates you…
Oh, and Steven… you were on a roll there, until the last line.
According to Tea Party and Libertarian doctrine these low taxes should also make us the wealthiest, best educated, healthiest and most productive state in the nation.
Ok, Brad. I’ll pay one dollar more. That will meet your objective and we can end the silly discussion. You and Cindi are both so mathematically challenged that it is seriously crazy. You and she both overlook the key data point from her article:
“Our income, by the way, is $33,954 per capita, which ranks 46th nationally. Not something to celebrate no matter what you think about taxes.”
Does it really take a rocket scientist to figure out that if people are not making much money, that they can’t pay as much in taxes? We’ve got an tax base that is largely uneducated and unemployable outside the Columbia/Greenville/Charleston areas. Duh! They don’t make money so they can’t pay taxes. Really, is it that difficult to understand that what results is taxing those of us who DO make money more?
You want to improve South Carolina’s tax base? Stop pushing kids into and out of dropout factories. Stop rewarding unwed mothers when they have babies (56% of children in SC born today are on Medicaid).
Raise the taxes on the true tax payers and you’ll see an exodus that will leave South Carolina in 51st place.
Improvements in education would likely reduce the uneducated/unemployed/poverty-stricken populace that so irks Doug.
Some taxes ARE investments and not simply expenditures.
However, Doug is correct when he implies that the state’s overall economy would be improved if more people saw the economic benefits of urbanization.
Ah, the benefits of civic life.
@mark
They don’t irk me. What irks me is the process used to create them. Nobody in control will implement the radical changes that would be required to fix the schools and nobody in control will admit that spending more money is the answer (ref: Allendale – the highest per student spending in the state).
Invest in education, not broken processes.
@Bud
“According to Tea Party and Libertarian doctrine these low taxes should also make us the wealthiest, best educated, healthiest and most productive state in the nation.”
Uh, maybe you need to learn more about libertarianism. A libertarian would want lower taxes so he could invest in himself to improve his earning power. The emphasis is on personal responsibility in an ethical manner.
It’s those who are dependent on the government who make up the low end. Not many libertarians in that group.
Brad– I hope you never get over yourself. Who’d want to read your blog then?
People do flock to NJ–its proximity to New York and Philadephia, coupled with excellent schools and other services means that plenty of people we know, who can live anywhere and are the sort of highly-educated technology-savvy “Knowledge economy” workers, people who can live anywhere and have lived many desirable places, desire to live in New Jersey. It’s not all Fort Lee and Trenton. Most of it is very lovely and delightful to live in(Princeton, Summit,etc.), if expensive. The thing is, when you live there, you make plenty of money, and you get a lot more for your money, as well.
Sorry, Doug, YOU don’t get to choose how much you pay. What we do in this republic is vote for representatives, and THEY decide.
I know you don’t like that, in theory. But in practice, you should love it. Because for as long as I’ve been back in SC (since 87), our state representatives have ONLY done what YOU want, with regard to tax policy. Which is why we’re at the bottom on so many things, including per capita taxes.
You should love the Legislature. They love cutting taxes so much, they even cut taxes they have no business messing with, on the local level. (In fact, those are their very favorites to cut.)
As for Cindi and I being mathematically challenged — I’d love to see an objective contest of mathematical ability between you and Cindi. Sorry, but I wouldn’t be betting on you. That’s not a reflection on you; it’s just that I’ve never met anyone with a better grasp of facts and what they mean than Cindi.
As for me — well, I’m quite good at math. At least, according to such measurements as the SAT, which folks who don’t like spending money on public education love to speak of as though it were THE number that matters.
I just don’t like it. Especially when the numbers refer to money. I just find money one of the most boring subjects in the world. At least, I find MY money to be boring. Which is why my heart doesn’t go all pitter-pat when someone asks me to pay a tax or something. I’m like, whatever. Perhaps I’d feel differently if I were ever OVERtaxed, but I haven’t experienced that.
And that’s why I react the way I do to your “How much more are YOU willing to pony up?” Just raise it whatever you think is necessary. I’ll holler if I think it gets too high. Which I know isn’t likely EVER to happen in South Carolina.
My wife and I met with our accountant yesterday to start on our taxes. I know the accountant thinks I’m a dullard, or rude or something. But I just can’t get into the subject. I just want to know how much to write the check for. Even if it means I have to take out a loan.
Which … and here’s the irony … I’ll probably have to do this year. Here’s how it works for me: Every year of my adult life, I’ve gotten a refund on income taxes. The only exceptions have been the two toughest financial years I’ve had. The first was 1987, the year I took a huge pay cut to come work at The State (man, I HAD to get out of Kansas or go totally nuts — long story), and had a bunch of unanticipated expenses. That was the year the vaunted Reagan tax “reform” went into effect by the way — and the result for me was a bigger bite when I could least afford it.
Then there’s last year, when the full effect of having been laid off the previous year began to hit home. So, of course, I’m probably going to owe several thousand. Which I don’t have lying around.
But you know what? I’m not going to sit up nights worrying about it. Nor am I going to hate government, or join the silly Tea Party, or any of that. It’s only money. It comes and it goes. It’s not the meaning of life. I sort of look at things the way Heinlein’s Jubal Harshaw did: “he had been broke many times, had often been wealthier than he now was; he regarded both as shifts in the weather and never counted his change.”
Wait… I forgot to make the point, or points, I had meant to make just then.
Doug says, “Does it really take a rocket scientist to figure out that if people are not making much money, that they can’t pay as much in taxes?”
No, it doesn’t. But two points:
1. It’s ironic that YOU say that, since you’re the one who gripes so much about people who live in nice houses paying more tax than people who don’t. You also get really stirred up in general about people who are doing OK paying more than the poor do.
2. Yes, we are poorer in South Carolina. So you would expect us to pay MORE of our income for such essentials as food, shelter and the critical services provided by government. But we DON’T. We pay LESS than people in every other state but one.
Why would you “owe several thousand”? Do you have tens of thousands of dollars of untaxed income?
If you’re collecting a paycheck at ADCO, whoever is responsible for payroll should allow you to adjust your W-4 form so that you’re claiming at minimum 2 deductions (filing jointly). If you want a huge paycheck, and pay huge amounts every April 15th, you claim 20. If you truly have a “tax accountant”, I’m surprised he hasn’t already discussed this with you.
Doug and Brad are both right and wrong on this one. Doug is right in that Cindi did place a fairly large amount of credence in the fact that we pay less per capita than others in taxes. The real issue is whether we pay less per dollar of income. I think Cindi did indicate we pay less than the U.S. average. But a lower percentage may be all we can afford. If we raise taxes we’ll end up hurting our economy. Seems like a reasonable point during times of high unemployment.
On the other hand, Brad makes a pretty good argument that as a poor state we should be spending more for investment type services such as education.
My solution is to keep taxes low but spend on human resource enhancing services by borrowing the money. A little debt burden now should pay off big in the future. Once we approach full employment a bit of a progressive tax hike would be appropriate.
I have a tax accountant NOW. Didn’t need one last year, and certainly not the year before.
When all my income came from one source, it was easier. But that source went away, and now I have multiple sources.
Last year at ADCO, I was taking out too little for tax (MUCH too little), and too much for my health savings account. (The upside is that if I need to buy some drugs, I’m in good shape.) I’ve adjusted both now.
Doug, I have done my due diligence on libertarian doctrine. And much of it is simply ridiculous. They propose nonsensical stuff like doing away with the United States Treasury and relying on free enterprise to print money. They do pay lip service to personal responsibility but pretty much give corporate greed a pass. You seem to suggest that prosperity for all is immoral somehow and it’s a good thing for wealth to be concentrated in the hands of a few. Not sure I follow.
Years ago I dabbled with the idea of becoming a Libertarian and rejected the economic aspects of it. However, I did find the concept of abolishing victimless crimes such as drugs and prostitution sensible.
SC is to the point where we’re rapidly becoming the pothole capitol of America, despite our mild climate, because our government(s) don’t have the money to fix the roads. Our schools are atrocious, but we haven’t tried to fix them; those who can run from them, and those who can’t–well they haven’t much of a chance in this society. Wonderful thought dumping medicaid BTW, after all those babies need to take full responsibility for their births. After all shouldn’t Paul’s injuction “He who will not work shall not eat” apply to newborns as well?
Doug should be in seventh heaven. His libertarian philosophy has taken root and is prospering. From the AFL-CIO blog:
“The wealth gap gets worse and so does the pay gap: The wage gap between the top 100 CEOs and workers jumped from $45 to $1 in 1970 to—hold your breath—$1,723 to $1 in 2006.”
@bud
If unions allowed their drones to work for themselves, they’d earn more.
@brad
Neither of these statements make any sense at all:
“No, it doesn’t. But two points:
1. It’s ironic that YOU say that, since you’re the one who gripes so much about people who live in nice houses paying more tax than people who don’t. You also get really stirred up in general about people who are doing OK paying more than the poor do.”
What makes it ironic? I don’t get it. You’re making an illogical claim that South Carolina pays fewer taxes per person than any other state. And that’s because the people here make less money. We’re 50th because of our income, not because of the taxes. How can that not be clear. If you want to raise the taxes paid, find a way to get people to make more money — not just take more from those who are already paying more than their share.
“2. Yes, we are poorer in South Carolina. So you would expect us to pay MORE of our income for such essentials as food, shelter and the critical services provided by government. But we DON’T. We pay LESS than people in every other state but one.”
Why are you lumping food, shelter with taxes? Where does the data say we spend less on food and shelter per person?
Here’s some details that aren’t included in Cindi’s column:
She says South Carolina is:
“Ranked 43rd. Combined state and local tax burden as a percentage of state income, at 8.1 percent. The U.S. average is 9.8 percent.”
Let’s look at the states that rank lower:
Tennessee
Alaska
Texas
Nevada
Wyoming
South Dakota
New Hampshire
Hmmm… bet you thought the lower states would be Mississipi, Alabama, Georgia, West Virginia.
How is it that two diverse states like New Hampshire and Texas can have such low rates and yet have none of the “we need more government” chatter? I know why – smaller government.
Here’s some other interesting numbers.. February 2011 unemployment rates:
3 SOUTH DAKOTA 4.8
4 NEW HAMPSHIRE 5.4
7 WYOMING 6.2
17 ALASKA 7.6
22 TEXAS 8.2
38 TENNESSEE 9.6
42 SOUTH CAROLINA 10.2
51 NEVADA 13.6
Five of the states with lower tax burdens than South Carolina also have significantly lower unemployment rates. How can that be?
I say we cut our taxes to the Texas and New Hampshire levels to see if we can match their success.
Well, I make statements that make all the sense in the world, and Doug says they make zero sense.
So, you know… where are we supposed to meet on this?
Lies, Damn lies and statistics people always say.
None of this much matters. I could point out that of Doug’s list, Alaska derives most of its revenue from oil revenues. Nevada lives on gambling. South Dakota is, well, South Dakota. That goes for Wyoming as well (where they use fees instead of taxes). New Hampshire is a bedroom community of Boston which has always invested in education. I could go on, but what’s the point?
No clear thinking person would consider the tax burden in this state to be overwhelming – or disproportional. However, we all need to develop an understanding that the current tax structure is self-destructive. At the same time, it stretches the imagination almost to disbelief to believe that continued cuts in public spending are going to lead to an improvement in our state’s economic position.
Our problem is we spend too much time whining about our relative position and not enough effort implementing the kinds of long-range strategic plans that result in significant improvements over generations. Education and infrastructure are the keys here. So is the development of a coherent and broadly applied tax structure.
Bud’s right on this; if you are at the bottom of evey list a state wouldn’t want to be on, then you need to accept the pain and pay somewhat more in taxes (where the revenue adheres to the plan) to get the state on a track toward improved prosperity in relation to the rest of the country. That’s what communities used to do in past centuries – they built a future.
Now, we just let ourselves fall further behind. Or maybe more accurately, we place our perceived needs before our children’s and their children’s.
The only difference is Doug backs up his statement with facts.
What’s bud’s point (and obsession) with CEO pay?
@brad
Because you tried to link some irony to my statement that poor people pay less taxes to my gripe about people who aren’t poor paying more. Where’s the irony? Poor people don’t pay much in taxes and the services they receive are paid for by others who pay a whole lot more. And South Carolinians pay less per person in taxes because they make less money than people do in other states. Shocking!
It’s like saying the median jumping height for people who have a broken ankle is less than that of people who have two good ankles. Yeah, poor people don’t pay much in taxes and you want people to pay more (but I don’t think you want the poor to pay more).
At least your buddy Bobby Harrell is onto something. He co-sponsered a bill that would replace all state taxes with the Fair Tax – a high sales tax. Sign me up!
In the 1950s, CEO pay (as a multiple of average worker pay) was lower, tax rates were higher, and the U.S. prospered. These are facts not open to dispute.
Doug, I really wish you would go to Allendale, spend a few weeks in the schools there, and figure out what the solution is. No one else has been able to figure it out although many have tried, and I would really love to read your solution. I am serious. But you have to actually spend some time there observing the problems up close before rendering your comprehensive solution. If your solution works, then we could apply it to all the rural schools (and possibly others as well) in the state that have majority black, extremely poor students whose parents are mostly uneducated and unemployed.
@kathy
My solution is to give vouchers equal to the cost of per pupil currently spent. Let those willing to make the effort to escape the failed system do so. Let the rest be stuck where they are.
“At least your buddy Bobby Harrell is onto something. He co-sponsered a bill that would replace all state taxes with the Fair Tax – a high sales tax. Sign me up!”
Me too
@Kathy – Do you know anyone who has taught at Allendale? I do, and she only stayed for a short time. She left not because of the conditions of the physical school, but because of the attitude of parents and the surrounding community. She stated that Allendale could have the best school building in the state and would still have the lowest test scores in the state. Education is not important to many in the area. Education to them is a free daycare facility to house their children during the day. She was there for four years, and left from frustration of not having a supporting administration, supporting community, supporting parents, etc.
Yeah, Steve; I’m with you on that — I Like Ike.
@Bud
Today’s news:
“In 2009, then-CEO of AARP William Novelli received $1,647,419 in total compensation,”
This is the group that purports to support the interests of senior citizens. What they really are is a brand name that collects $457 million a year royalty payments from UnitedHealthcare.
How much should the CEO of AARP be paid?
@Kathy
Here is all the data I need to see to know that Allendale requires a completely different approach. This is from the SC Dept. of Ed. 2009-2010 report cards:
Allendale Dollars spent per pupil $12,406
SC Overall Median dollars spent per pupil $9,364
Spending $3000 more for every student hasn’t resulted in any measurable improvement. My guess is that you could spend $30000 more per student and the results would be the same. You can’t fix a broken culture with money.
Oh, no, but if you have VOUCHERS (or worse, tuition tax credits), everything will magically be OK.
Explain to us how that works, seriously, without all the sloganeering about how the private sector is magically better.
Start with an explanation for the business model, so I can begin to understand how a private provider actually finds it profitable to go into Allendale County and set up an excellent school that educates all of the county’s kids — no matter how troubled or disadvantaged — in exchange for a pitiful few vouchers in that thinly populated area.
You’re always demanding specifics from ME — let’s see the P&L on that business, a P&L that would actually be attractive to a private company. That would be interesting.
That is to say, it would be interesting for a P&L (which are normally about as fascinating as watching paint dry). The thing that would MAKE it interesting is the fact that it would be miraculous.
Vouchers, new schools, top rate teachers, etc. are not going to improve Allendale. At least not until the coommunity and parents want it to improve. Until then, I’m glad to see more money being spent in Lexington and Greenville counties. The best thing Allendale could do is shut down their high school, start a vocational school and hope that some of the students might actually want to do something other than collect a welfare check.
Maybe Jim Clyburn could help. Aren’t they in his district? Or is he too busy trying to build a center at SCSU.
Bobby Harrell should rename his bill. I like “the mean tax.” What else should you call it when you’re saving money for people who have a lot and don’t have to spend much (like wealthy retirees) and breaking the backs of people who have little but have to use it all (like single moms)?
Re Steve Gordy’s point and Brad’s “I Like Ike” thumbs-up: very apropos of this excellent recent Andrew Sullivan post, the main point of which is that “someone advocating what Eisenhower was perfectly comfortable with would be regarded by the Republican right today as a communist.”
Sullivan goes on to say that “conservatism cannot be defined as whatever is the most extreme right-wing narrative of the moment. Time matters. Conservatism needs to be flexible enough a governing philosophy to be able to correct for conservative ideology itself. When such an ideology threatens fiscal balance, a prudent foreign policy, and a thriving middle class, it has become the enemy of real conservatism, not its friend.”
@Burl
“Of course, in private schools, then the school administration is free to agendize creationist science and revisionist history. They’ll set they own standards”
And if the parents choose to send their kids to a school that does that, what’s the problem?
Isn’t that what a Catholic high school would be?
@brad,
What would a P&L have to do with a private school? It would be a nonprofit arrangement. All the money should go for educational purposes.
I’d go through the effort to come up with a business plan but I can see you throwing “yeah, buts” into the result. You’ve got to give me the parameters I’m working with – i.e. how much autonomy would this entity have to remove itself from the educrat bureaucracy?
Here’s the thing – if the legislature said tomorrow that they would provide a voucher equal to last year’s spending per pupil, you’d get your answer in a couple weeks as to whether there were entities out there willing to accept the challenge. If nobody steps up, then you can kill the vouchers. The thing is you can’t dare to take the chance that someone might succeed.
And to get you started with some factual information to digest, here’s some tuitions for a variety of private schools across the state. Compare these to Allendale’s $12K per student.
St. Anne Catholic School Rock Hill: $5810
Mason Prep School Charleston: 9595
Northwood Academy North Charleston: $5118
St. Josephs Catholic School Greenville: $7490
Wilson Hall Sumter: $5645
Marlboro Academy Bennetsville: $3350
How do they all do it? How is it that $12K isn’t enough in Allendale and $3-$10K is plenty everywhere else. Because the community doesn’t care about education. That’s why I support letting those who DO CARE have a better shot at it. It can’t be any worse…
Of course, in private schools, then the school administration is free to agendize creationist science and revisionist history. They’ll set they own standards.
@Doug:
I’m not afraid that nobody would come in to take the money. I’m afraid someone would, and they wouldn’t do a good job, and we would never know it — because they aren’t saying whether they’re teaching or buying SUV’s with the state’s money and they aren’t taking or reporting the results of the same tests as the public schools.
Here’s something else to think about: If the legislature said it would provide a voucher equal to last year’s funding, a prospective voucher school would have around $2,000 per pupil. If they got the same amount as the state public charter schools, they’d have $2,500 per pupil, unless the increase for state public charters is approved this year, in which case they’d have a little more. In any case, the amount doesn’t come close to tuition at all but one of the schools you listed. The rest of the funding for public schools comes from federal and local sources and presumably can’t be commandeered for private schools.
Then there’s this: Do you know if these schools would take a child who had only the state voucher? Do you know whether they accept students who are performing below grade level, who have special needs, or who don’t meet a minimum IQ requirement? Because many won’t. And how do you know that 3K is “plenty”? What test scores can you cite to show that students in these schools are doing well — not compared to students in public schools (a different demographic) but compared to similar students in similar schools around the nation?
Here’s one more fact to digest: the General Assembly isn’t even talking about a voucher, it’s proposing a tax credit. So if you don’t make enough to pay a couple of thousand dollars in state taxes every year — and only 20 percent of South Carolina families do — then this bill does nothing for you. Even then, you have to be well enough off to pay the money up front and wait for the credit. If you have that much money, you can already afford Marlboro Academy.
“And if the parents choose to send their kids to a school that does that, what’s the problem?”
It is if the government pushes private-school education as a superior to public education. Having an educated populace — as opposed to an indoctrinated populace — affects us all.
@KP
Allendale spent $12K per pupil. That’s the size of the voucher they should get. If the money can flow into the school system, it can surely flow to the parents.
$2000 is meaningless. The average school spends over $9000 per student.
I’ve never said a word about tax credits. I don’t think that is the answer. It should be a needs based voucher for students in schools identified as failing by the Department of Education’s own standards.
Ohio is doing it now and there are plans to expand the program fourfold. Something must be working.
As for spending money on SUV’s – pure red herring. And is it any different than spending $30 million on a football field?
Why is it that people think that education is all about money. Shoving an iPad in front of every kid doesn’t make them smarter. It’s about involvement by the community and parents. I attended a small town school in the midwest, the town revolved around the school and school activities. The state didn’t shovel money into the school’s budget and most of us who graduated (I can count on one hand the number of people who dropped out the 12 years I was there) are doing fine.
@ Doug
Those numbers are so misleading it’s not even worth talking about -but I will.
As a father of a daughter in private school, and 2 sons in public school
Private schools typically have well funded bank accounts. When a private school can go to a family within the school to get $25,000 for a school upgrade, new playground equipment, a new computer center, a new heating system, send 20 kids on a out of state field trip, you don’t have to charge as much tuition.
Vouchers won’tautomatically make private schools want to take any more children.
Vouchers don’t help a single mom that would have to drive 50 miles to the local private school.
My daughter’s PRIVATE SCHOOL isn’t remotely interested in having more students or getting bigger. They have a waiting list now are aren’t interested in adding more students.
The parents at her school send their children there because it is small, and they don’t accept everyone that walks in the door with a checkbook.
South Carolina will never improve if our goal is “low taxes.”
Companies don’t come to states in large numbers simply because of “low taxes,” especially companies that are high paying.
High paying companies want to local in communities that have excellent schools, good roads, that have a high percentage of technically trained college graduates. They don’t want to locate in communities where everyone is screaming about wanting bare bones tax rates while the roads and schools don’t function.
@ Barry–
Yes!! Exactly. The types of businesses that are so tax conscious are the ones that will go out of the country as soon as they see that Mexico is even cheaper than SC. We want *good* jobs.
@barry
We’ll never know if vouchers can work unless we try it. I’m suggesting a needs based voluntary option for students in failing schools. What is the worst thing that can happen in that arrangement? We already know what the outcome will be in the public schools – failure.
The irony in Doug’s call to reduce SC tax rates to the levels of South Dakota, is that the majority of local government income in South Dakota is from the very thing he hates the most: ad valorem property tax. I hope he gets his wish…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Carolina#Taxes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota#State_taxes
“I’m suggesting a needs based voluntary option for students in failing schools. What is the worst thing that can happen in that arrangement? We already know what the outcome will be in the public schools – failure.”
1) Do you advocate more money for the Dept of Education to monitor this program? Or do you advocate no monitoring at all?
2) Can the private schools exempt disabled students from attending? Do you want the state to mandate that private schools have to accept any student whose parent “voluntarily” chooses a particular private school?
3) Can the private schools refuse to admit severely autistic children or mentally handicappend children?
4) Will you propose covering transportation costs for parents that choose your option? In some counties transportation issues are an overriding barrier.
5) If your answer is “needs based,” does the child have to test to enter the private school? What if the private school requires testing for placement/entrance purposes for all students? Does the state mandate that the private schoool exempt entering students through a “needs based” criteria?
6) Do you propose the state require the private school to keep the student in the school if the parent(s) choose not to ulimately support their child’s educational pursuits within the private school? In other words, the child gets in the private school but the school quickly realizes the parents aren’t supportive at all and the child is failing? Does the state require the school to keep the student in the school or can they ask the child to leave?
1) Do you advocate more money for the Dept of Education to monitor this program? Or do you advocate no monitoring at all?
No monitoring at all. The Dept of Ed has been “monitoring” Allendale for years and that has had no positive effect. Part of the problem is too much money spent on monitoring and not enough in the classroom.
Only monitoring I’d suggest would be pre-school year testing and post-school year testing using national tests not the useless PASS tests.
2) Can the private schools exempt disabled students from attending? Do you want the state to mandate that private schools have to accept any student whose parent “voluntarily” chooses a particular private school?
No – the private schools don’t do that now do they? Sounds like you want to just create another public school system with all the same rules.
3) Can the private schools refuse to admit severely autistic children or mentally handicappend children?
There would be no refusal. The schools would explain their policies and structure and let the parent decide if their kid could thrive in that environment.
Another issue with our current public education system is the new trend of providing a tailored education to each individual student.
4) Will you propose covering transportation costs for parents that choose your option? In some counties transportation issues are an overriding barrier.
Sure. If you give each kid $12K, I bet they can figure out a way t0 transport them.
Again, if you are so sure this idea will fail, just make it available and let the failure happen. Then people like me will stop talking about it. I’m willing to accept the risk that a student in a failing school might continue to fail in a private school, why aren’t you? Because I am also confident that SOME kids would succeed who have no shot now.
5) If your answer is “needs based,” does the child have to test to enter the private school? What if the private school requires testing for placement/entrance purposes for all students? Does the state mandate that the private schoool exempt entering students through a “needs based” criteria?
Again – the parent gets the voucher. The schools set themselves up to deliver education in whatever way they want. The parents decide if they can accept the rules of the private school.
6) Do you propose the state require the private school to keep the student in the school if the parent(s) choose not to ulimately support their child’s educational pursuits within the private school? In other words, the child gets in the private school but the school quickly realizes the parents aren’t supportive at all and the child is failing? Does the state require the school to keep the student in the school or can they ask the child to leave?
Sure. The voucher is a “contract” for one year of education. At the end of the year, if the parents have neglected their responsibility (and have had ample notifications during the year), then the kid doesn’t come back. At least that would put SOME responsibility on the parents rather than the current public system that doesn’t dare hold parents responsible.
“There would be no refusal. The schools would explain their policies and structure and let the parent decide if their kid could thrive in that environment”
Many private schools aren’t well set up to educate say for example – autistic children. They don’t have specialized counselers or special education teachers.
So a parent that may be poorly informed decides to put their child in a particular private school, does the state try to mandate the private school accept the student?
Or do you leave it up to the private school?
“If you give each kid $12K, I bet they can figure out a way t0 transport them”
I am not aware of any such proposal. Maybe I am wrong but the numbers I have seen wouldn’t come close to covering tuition at some schools.
In addition, most private schools that I am familiar with (all 3 of my children have attended private school, 2 of them are currently in public school) are small by design – and many have waiting lists now.
@Barry, his $12k figure comes from the amount spent per child for the 2009-2010 year in Allandale county schools. Given the size of the county and the locations of the schools, I strongly suspect a very large proportion of that figure to be transportation costs.
“4) Will you propose covering transportation costs for parents that choose your option? In some counties transportation issues are an overriding barrier. ”
Why worry about that with private schools, it doesn’t seem to be a concern for public schools. Don’t believe me, look at the student parking lots and the endless line of vehicles dropping off and picking up students at elementary and middle schools. Seems to me transporation is mom dropping them off or the student driving themselves to school.
@ Steven
Most folks live close to their public schools. I drive my boys 4.5 miles to their public school. Easy, simple, quick.
in some of our rural, poor counties, the closest private school is 30-40 + miles away. Some are further.
I do wonder why kids today can’t take the bus to school like I did. I even had to find a place for my giant baritone horn, and three to a seat is insane after the third grade….
Doug Ross says:
“We’ll never know if vouchers can work unless we try it. I’m suggesting a needs based voluntary option for students in failing schools. What is the worst thing that can happen in that arrangement? We already know what the outcome will be in the public schools – failure.”
Doug, why just based on if the school is failing – why not based on the individual child – i.e. is the school failing that child? What if eligible students were students who are scoring not met on the PASS? But kids who are scoring met or proficient, even in a supposedly ‘failing’ school are not eligible.
You say what is the worst thing that could happen?
With the current proposed bill, kids who ARE achieving in the public schools leaving the school system at taxpayer expense while disadvantaged students who are not achieving in the public schools are not able to take advantage of tax credits because there are no schools in their area or the schools in their area will not take them. Personally I think that is a pretty bad outcome. Make the kids that are currently achieving in the public schools ineligible, and I’ll be more willing to listen.
Another possible bad outcome – fodder for continued misinformation as the bill attempts to make inappropriate comparisons between public and private education.
Another possible bad outcome – loss of funding to public schools that will most likely not be restored, even if this plan were declared a failure – just based on the nature of the way things work – I find it unlikely funding would be restored.
Ultimately, I suspect it would leave the neediest students in the public schools with even fewer resources.
Steven says,
“Why worry about that with private schools, it doesn’t seem to be a concern for public schools. Don’t believe me, look at the student parking lots and the endless line of vehicles dropping off and picking up students at elementary and middle schools. Seems to me transporation is mom dropping them off or the student driving themselves to school.”
Attendance areas in rural districts can easily be 30-40 miles across. The majority of kids at my school are bus riders. Number of bus riders at my school seems to be inversely proportional to how the economy is doing.
Name one school district where a student rides the bus for 40 miles to get to school.
Aiken County – Area 4 – specifically Wagener-Salley Attendance Zone and Ridge Spring Monetta Attendance Zone. You’ll note, I said the attendance zone can be 30-40 miles across, but the school is typically in the middle, so distance from edge of zone to school is not 40 miles. However, factor in that bus routes do not go directly from pt. A to pt. B in order to pick up multiple children and bus rides can be of considerable length with a considerable portion over dirt roads.
Here is a link to a map of attendance zones in Aiken County – Each block of color is a different High School feeder zone – RSM and Wagener-Salley are the two big blocks of color on the top right half of the county. The RSM and Wagener-Salley zones, unlike the rest of the county, have exactly one elementary and one middle school that feed them, so that huge block of color is the zone for the elementary kids too.
http://gis-server.aiken.k12.sc.us/ZoneLocator/Zoning/ZoneLocator.aspx?SiteCode=
I really don’t think these zones are unusual for rural South Carolina- they are just ones that I happen to have some direct knowledge of.
Here is some more info about the length of rural bus rides.
http://www.ruraledu.org/user_uploads/file/Rural_School_Bus_Ride.pdf
Kids have been riding buses for the past 100 years. I grew up in the midwest and know kids who sat on the bus for over an hour one way. Routes were run the same picking up as dropping off so first picked up at 6:30, first dropped off at 3:45). There were and probably are still guidelines as far as length of time a student has to sit on a bus before a route is modified and another bus added. One benefit for long bus rides is that many students got their homework done while on the bus… but this was before wireless internet access and SmartPhones.