I was thinking about writing something about the “emergency” curfew that Columbia City Council enacted this morning for Five Points, but hey, I wasn’t at the meeting, and I noticed Kathryn saying she was, so why shouldn’t she write it? (Since I first became an editor supervising reporters in 1980, my mind runs that way — why shouldn’t other people go to the meetings and do the work?)
She was kind enough to share this — and quickly, too:
City Council held a “work session” at 8 AM this morning, to accommodate the schedule of at least one council member, to discuss and possibly enact an emergency curfew in Five Points. The recent severe assault and robbery of 18-year-old Carter Strange was determined by the city attorney to be sufficient to justify the measures under a Fourth Circuit case involving a similar curfew in Charlottesville, VA. Council waived the attorney-client privilege that would have necessitated executive session and excluded non-council members from the meeting.
Council heard from both City Attorney Ken Gaines and a municipal attorney from Newberry whose name I do not recall who was engaged for a second opinion. Both said that there was probably sufficient evidence of juvenile involvement in and victimization from crime in the Five Points area to justify the curfew, but cautioned that lawsuits could certainly result. There is no legal requirement to carry an ID and you can’t have ID checkpoints, but if a cop has sufficient belief that someone appears to be under 17, he can detain the person. If no parent or other suitable relative can be found by the end of the curfew period (6 AM), the child would be taken into emergency protective custody by DSS, but NOT DJJ — the kid cannot be held in jail or handcuffs. Parents can be cited, as well. A lot of discussion about these procedures ensued, as well as discussion of alternative entertainment options in city parks for juveniles–Assistant City Manager and former parks head Allison Baker said that three city parks offer alternatives, with widely varying degrees of juvenile participation. There are no entertainment options open to juveniles in Five Points– Mayor Benjamin pointed out that there are no arcades, ice cream parlors, or movie theaters in Five Points.
Council informally determined to use $450,000 of hospitality taxes to fund a specially trained hospitality zone police team.
Attorney Gaines read additional “whereas” clauses with additional crimes that would justify the enactment of the curfew. Council voted unanimously to enact the 60 day curfew, effective tonight.
My initial reaction to the action by council was, “It’s about time.” Man, but they have dithered over this. Yeah, I know they’ve got all kinds of sound, lawyerly reasons not to act (and are they lawyered up or what?) — one can always find lots of those. But it’s about time.
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“An ice cream parlor”? Really? That made me chuckle, envisioning those guys saying “if only there was an ice cream parlor, we wouldn’t feel like beating somebody up”.
They haven’t really dithered about it. They even got a second legal opinion-which I recommended, that agreed with Ken Gaines. There was a dearth of statistics to back a curfew–lots of anecdotes, but once Randy Scott realized this, he made a huge policy change. There have been statistics collected since at least March, and CPD either has or is shortly to have a person on staff to crunch the numbers.
AS a taxpayer, as well as a significant stakeholder by dint of my residential location and my involvement with the task force, I wanted them to get it right—there may well be lawsuits, but a winnable one beats an expensive losing one!
I cannot say enough good things about Chief Randy Scott and Councillor Belinda Gergel for their diligence in trying to do as much as possible about the critical situation in Five Points. Scott Linaberry, Tom Sponseller and Caroline Watson deserve a great deal of credit as well!
Do you really think this will reduce crime in general or just in Five Points specifically?
We all know what the issue is: getting black kids out of Five Points so they can go somewhere else to cause trouble. The issue is the parents. Maybe the black churches should get some volunteers to walk in the area at night to “counsel” the wayward sheep.
But if they are going to spend hospitality money to deal with this issue, I’d sure like to see someone defend the city spending $750K on the Woodrow Wilson boyhood home versus providing more/better security. in Five Points. Museums/historical buildings should be self-funded or else put into private hands.
Would this curfew even have covered this incident, since they were in the company of an adult?
To answer your question, Doug, yes.
Will it solve all our problems? No. But will it “reduce” crime? Yes.
And Susan, I had the same thought. Like that was those punks’ first plan that night — looking for an ice cream parlor.
Dang, Adrianna’s is closed. Guess we’ll have to beat somebody nearly to death….
“specially trained hospitality zone police team”… codename FLATFOOT.
Why is it taking 3 attempts to get this comment to appear?
Maybe those youths were just upset because they couldn’t find an ice cream parlor.
At least I heard good news today, that those other 7 punks are being held without bond. If WIS’s scared straight segment last night was just a warning, hopefully these three are needing a change of underwear and their nose blown on a regular basis.
When I was their age, back in the Pleistocene era, we did go to the Big Dipper a lot….
To some extent, the major target zone will be off limits to groups of underage thugs…the thrill of hanging out on some residential street waiting for some hapless drunk to wander back to his/her car is somewhat less…
The Vista might become a new area–but it is a lot further away from the “homes” of these kids, and the wide streets make it harder to wreak havoc out of sight….
“Hey, I don’t want to see ANY kids hanging around late at night, particularly in groups, and particularly if they are male.”
I hear up on Two Notch that single girls hang out on the street corners…
Why is it that Greenville can implement a 10:00 curfew and have few if any problems… but even discussing an 11:00 curfew in 5-Points gets the NAACP and ACLU lawyers bent out of shape?
I think the Mayor’s point was that there are no venues for children in Five Points so there is no reason (and no excuse) for them to be there.
FWIW, Belinda Gergel received reports of similar beatings last summer and early fall, but the victims declined to press charges. One kid needed reconstructive surgery on his eye socket, too. Kudos to the Strange family for standing up!
It’s not the political will that’s lacking any more–it’s the data.
@ Steven–we heard from the Greenville police chief–they had a riot downtown, and enacted the curfew only on Main St, later extended to the riverfront park. They had the data.
–Juveniles never get bond. They get detained or released. Fortunately, they got detained.
Um… I am unaware of NAACP involvement. Or ACLU, either.
onwatch, I got the mayor’s point. It’s just that I read it in the context of discussion about alternatives in the city parks. Which kind of got me going… Yeah, maybe programs in the parks could distract kids. But if they’re going to join gangs, that seems like a whole separate problem. I mean, we’re not going to have programs in the parks at midnight, are we? Or are we specifically talking about midnight basketball, which was a huge national topic about a decade ago? Maybe so…
By the way, Steven’ remark about the NAACP is why we have trouble even talking about these problems in a calm manner.
As soon as we try to talk realistically about violent crime and set aside racial sensitivities for a moment, some white guy brings up the NAACP…
In 1968, after Dr. King was killed, I was riding my bike behind Hiller Hardware in Five Points and was attacked by four black kids who blamed me for King’s death. They threw rocks and bricks at me and knocked me off of my bike. I explained to them that it wasn’t my fault. I even told them that I had a cousin who was a Freedom Rider, but they didn’t want to hear about it. I got home bloodied. My mother asked me what happened. She called the police but nothing was done. It has been 43 years. And there have been attacks on others down there. Maybe now, the police will listen. Maybe now, Columbia is waking up. It isn’t about race. It is about safety.
JT McLawhorne was quoted in The State supporting the curfew, but with reservations about racial profiling.
Victoria Middleton, ED of the ACLU, threatened a lawsuit last fall/winter when the curfew was, we hoped, going to get second reading.
I like the part about “holding” them until 6 am. Now that’s the kind of thing that is going to catch the attention of the delinquents. A night spent sitting on a chair or in a van waiting for the cops to contact a “suitable relative” in the wee hours will end that kid’s interest in hanging around Five Points (maybe his friends, too). But then what is DSS going to do with them at 6 am? Take them to breakfast?
I just don’t see why this curfew shouldn’t apply city-wide? No kid under 16 needs to be out at midnight – or even 11 pm – anywhere without a parent or suitable relative present.
And what are we going to do about drunken USC football players who beat up people? Can we ban them also? Or do we just let them go into double-secret-probation under Father O’Spurrier?
This is just about pushing a problem elsewhere. Thugs are thugs regardless of the location.
When Steve B. spoke about there being no businesses for juvies in 5 Pts, it was, if I recall, only in that context. He then moved on to ask Allison Baker about how the parks alternatives were going–I think that’s the order—it was two different topics….I didn’t take notes, alas…
Here’s the official city notice of the curfew:
And here is a map of the area affected.
Here is The State’s story, plus links to the ordinance…
http://www.thestate.com/2011/06/28/1877405/council-passes-emergency-curfew.html#storylink=Afternoon%20Newsletter
“Warren Bolton reminds us this morning that in unincorporated Richland County, “in 2010, 71 percent of all violent crimes were committed by African-Americans.”
So how about we “white guys” talk about the 29% and the “black guys” take responsibility for the 71%? Where is Steve Benjamin standing up in front of the black community and saying “We OWN this!”
Thanks, Kathryn. For someone who didn’t know she was going to be asked to report, you did well…
I read The State piece and I am no journalist!
From The State:
“State NAACP leader Lonnie Randolph called the attack “heinous” said the men responsible deserve “the fullest wrath” possible legally. But he urged council to slow down on the rush to approve a curfew, concerned that it would open the door for police to excessively harass young African-Americans.”
“The state chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union already has called Columbia’s proposed curfew unconstitutional”
Why do we even have to discuss this as a race issue at all. If people are being beat up in Five Points or Eau Claire we should try to stop it.
And Doug… I think the “we” that owns this is all of us. I don’t believe in looking at a problem and saying, “Hey, you black people ought to do something.” We all own it.
That’s why empowering the cops to keep kids off the street in the middle of the night is a good start.
“As soon as we try to talk realistically about violent crime and set aside racial sensitivities for a moment, some white guy brings up the NAACP…”
Which white guy at The State are we talking about?
Except “we” can’t announce those numbers in front of the black community and get the same response as the Mayor or Chief of Police can.
OK, Steven, you got me. I guess it was that Clif LeBlanc guy.
And I apologize. I thought you were inferring. That is to say, I INFERRED that you were inferring.
Inexcusable on my part.
Those French guys are always spouting off at the mouth.
Clif is Panamanian. Or partly. On his mother’s side, I believe.
Warren Bolton’s op ed makes great points on the racial aspect–it is true that a disproportionate number of crimes are committed by black boys and young men. It is also true that blacks are far more likely to be their victims.
http://www.thestate.com/2011/06/28/1876773/bolton-five-points-beating-again.html
A guy from Panama named LeBlanc???
@bud – because when white people beat up black people, black people scream race… when black people beat up white people, white people scream race. When we beat up our own, nobody screams race. It’s how the system works.
@ Mark Stewart. Not enough data to enact city-wide, we are told by the expert lawyers– Gary Pope of Pope Zeigler was the other lawyer.
The kids whose parents (or other responsible relative) don’t pick them up will be taken into DSS custody and go into foster care–likely Carolina Children’s Home or the like, given their ages.
@ Doug — I’m all for cracking down hard on underage USC football players–so are several bar owners who are tired of the havoc some of them wreak–fights don’t equal drink sales!
There has been a significant crack down in Five Points of late, I’m told by cops. Apparently some of the bar keeps aren’t happy–wonder if we guess who (NOT Scott Linaberry!!) Hint: I bet you can tell by checking out the ads in The Free Times!
@ tim– no–the curfew exceptions don’t include being accompanied by any adult–it’s not exactly like a learner’s permit…
That’d be a wake up call… sneak out of the house, meet your friends, get arrested, end up in foster care. My dad wouldn’t have picked me up just to teach me a lesson.
I say haul them in, call the parents, tell them it’s $50 to bail their kid out if they want them home before 6:00. I’ll bet that this doesn’t happen more than 2-3 times before the kid gets locked in his bedroom at night.
Oh, and back to Doug’s point. Yep, I’m sure that black kids brutally beating a white kid on the edge of Shandon does loom large in a lot of people’s minds.
But then, they DID nearly beat a guy to death, regardless of ethnicity or how angry that makes us, or how sensitive we are about it, or whatever. We’ve seen this coming. People in Five Points have been warning about it. And sometimes their warnings were dismissed as, “Aw, they just don’t want to see black kids standing around.”
Hey, I don’t want to see ANY kids hanging around late at night, particularly in groups, and particularly if they are male.
Warren Bolton reminds us this morning that in unincorporated Richland County, “in 2010, 71 percent of all violent crimes were committed by African-Americans.” He also notes that 97 percent of all violent crimes against blacks were committed by blacks.
But I don’t care if they’re little green men from Mars. And if it takes them beating a white kid for us to pay attention, well then at least we need to ACT once our attention is engaged.
If there’s no political will to enact the curfew across the city, then enact it in Five Points. If there’s no political will to do it in ALL of Five Points, just do it around the fountain. Just do something. Get started.
@ Steven– He’s Panamanian on his mother’s side. His surname is probably on his father’s side?
Yup. You figured it out detective-style.
@ Steven–you assume that these kids have “parents” who have $50, that they’d spend on bailing out the kids, and a bedroom with a door and a lock on it. In my fairly extensive experience, that is not the case with a lot of these kids.
Most of the Richland County kids I dealt with either through the DJJ or DSS systems lived in two bedroom apartments with many siblings an half siblings. Few had fathers around. Many did not have mothers–only grandmothers or even more remote relatives. Money was extremely tight–no $50 lying around….
Some of these families are doing the very best they can. Some could probably step up their game, especially if they stepped away from the substances…
It’s not the universe I was raised in or that in which most readers of this blog were raised in…
Kathryn,
One doesn’t need data to know that young kids should not be on the streets at night. It doesn’t matter whether they are out committing crimes or not. It’s about the time, not the kids. Just like how some cities close their parks at dusk.
I know attorneys, and people, will sue over just about anything; but come on, the right to roam the dark is not a civil right belonging to kids under 17 or so. At the beginning of my sentence I was starting to feel like Juan the anti-lawyer!
Clif (“the white”) LeBlanc. Another chuckle.
And when we have a problem with white boys commiting crimes, we send the police after them — we don’t organize church patrols. I don’t see why it’s any different if the boys are black.
@ Mark–Hey–I’m on record (The Free Times) as saying these kids need to go home and stay there. I even wrote on a Facebook post that it wouldn’t hurt everybody to close up shop and go home at 11–it’s healthier!
Alas, the 4th Circuit says you gotta show cause. My nephew, a generally sharp enough kid (28 years old), thinks we are becoming “Orwellian/minority report” [sic]…mostly people over 35 think this is a great idea, and those under 35 or so think this is jackbooted thugs trampling on civil liberties and “punishing” everyone for the crimes of a few and we just need to carpet Five Points with cops and everything would be copacetic. Of course, few of these young adults pay taxes directly out of their own pockets or think much about the ones they pay through rent or mortgage escrows….
@Kathryn
“It’s not the universe I was raised in or that in which most readers of this blog were raised in…”
Which is why those people who live in that universe (or in a nearby galaxy) should be stepping up FIRST to address it.
The black community has to take ownership of fatherless kids, high school dropouts, gang violence. There are plenty of examples of black leaders in the community who should be out there for everyone to see. I believe Bill Cosby got hammered by the black community for pointing out the issues he saw. Do we have anyone brave enough in Columbia to do the same?
Re: the race issue
Judge Byars, the immediate past DJJ head, and former Family Court Judge says that unfortunately rich kids and poor kids don’t get treated the same in the system. Rich kids’ parents (and they invariably have two) stand in front of the judge and say they are shipping little Hunter off to military school, after he gets done with his private inpatient psych eval. Poor kids don’t have that option, so they often get sent to the public version of military school a/k/a DJJ.
There is a racial component insofar as black kids are far more likely to come from poor families. Ergo, black kids don’t get the same treatment as white kids, on average.
They get worse.
Also, richer kids have a lot of room to cut up in private. Poor kids don’t have a rec room or a country club or even their own bedroom….hence they are on the skreets, and getting into a lot more trouble.
Black people who can, do step up tremendously–but I dispute that because our black communities are disproportionately broken, it’s the job first of people who happen to have black skin to fix it! For one thing, a lot of historians and sociologists say it wasn’t their fault in the first place–the roots lie in slavery and in problematic welfare rules. For another, for those who are Christian–WWJD? Did He say, “Go, seek ye first your ethnic brethren”?
Warren Bolton, who has black skin, frequently bewails the poor state of fatherhood among SOME blacks.
The thing is, the “black community” has far more limited resources than the “white community.”
I see poor kids and poor families, most all of whom had none of the advantages I did, starting with a stable home life. How did you learn how to behave, how to study, how to get a good job and keep it? Sure, plenty of kids from disadvantaged homes figure it out on their own, and plenty of kids with every advantage blow it, but on average, kids from better homes do better. Rich Dad; Poor Dad!
Who’s the 4th Circuit? I don’t know about legal stuff…and grow more content the farther I get from our legal system.
But when we start treating kids as adults, nothing will end well. Kids are kids; they need, and deserve, different standards to apply to them.
And Kathryn, it’s not like we are talking about whether the kids have places to play – that argument is bunk after 11 pm. In fact, I wouldn’t have a problem at all with having my sons picked up for being on the streets after 11pm. However, I think that that ought to apply even more to me the parent…
The 4th Circuit is a bunch of meddling liberal judicial activists. What WE need is a good, strict-constructionist Circuit like the 9th…
Sorry. Just trying to get the lawyers to laugh. It’s a reference to federal appeals court jurisdictions. The 4th is in Richmond, and covers our area. It is considered quite conservative. The 9th is considered the opposite.
On the thing about black people “owning” this issue. I think an awful lot of black folks do. I know Warren does. I know a lot of community leaders do.
But y’all know how I feel about Identity Politics. If I were black, and people wanted me to feel particularly responsible for the bad action of other black people, I would tell them to take a flying leap. I don’t feel responsible for the bad actions of white guys BECAUSE I’m white.
I do feel responsible for the community, the state, the nation, the world in which I live. Not the white part, or the black part, but all of it.
Amen. It’s not a black community or a white community. It’s just a community.
(And for an example of a black man taking ownership, see the article in The State on Father’s Day about Atiba and Tiffany Smith. (Had to give him a plug — I’m proud to say he’s a friend of mine)).
Link: http://www.thestate.com/2011/06/19/1865110/what-makes-a-good-father.html
(And Brad, if this is a duplicate comment, please delete it).
Even the 9th Circuit part?
If this is “doing the best they can”, they need to do a hell of a lot better job or else the state may be a better parent. I’m sorry, but these kids have no reason to be out running the streets past 10 pm.
Stating that these parents can’t afford a $50 fine or they can’t afford a lock for a door is nothing but an excuse. I know firemen who go out and install free smoke detectors in these same houses and talk about the big screen televisions, the cell phones, the far from necessity material things they see in these ratholes. Yet they can’t afford a $10 smoke detector. Why buy what you can get for free from the government. Even if they don’t have the $50, the kid can sit there until 6:00 a.m., and hopefully it’ll be an experience they don’t want to repeat and will have their butt at home by 11:00.
Kathryn wrote: “Also, richer kids have a lot of room to cut up in private. Poor kids don’t have a rec room or a country club or even their own bedroom….hence they are on the skreets, and getting into a lot more trouble.”
BS… at 11:00 pm kids (black, white, rich, or poor) should be in the same place… at home in bed. Unless you can give me a good excuse for 13-17 year olds to be out roaming the streets at 3 am, I’m going to blame it on poor parenting.
Hey, Mark, I went to an 8 AM meeting today–a real sacrifice, and one of many many meetings I have attended–to support the curfew and spent most of the afternoon yesterday and today justifying and explaining it to folks on both sides of the issue–
I’m merely stating the facts: the jurisprudence that applies, which matters a great deal and cannot be wished or theorized away, says you have to have data to back up a juvenile curfew. We are getting it. Unfortunately, young Strange had to be beaten up before we clicked over into the “sufficient” zone. Maybe if previous police chiefs had collected the data, we’d have been able to enact it sooner, but this case is quite recent.
The more I read what Kathryn wrote, I can’t help but think… I didn’t have a rec room, I didn’t go to a country club, I shared a bedroom with my brother and we hung out on the streets… until 10:00 and when we heard the curfew siren blow we had our butts on our bikes and were peddling home as fast as we could. We weren’t getting into trouble because the people in the community knew who we were and if we did something stupid, they were on the phone to our parents before we even knew we had been caught. None of us ended up in prison, none of us ended up being thugs… the worst any of us ended up, is one is the current Lt. Gov. of my home state.
yes, Steven, and lots of kids in poor homes behave, go to bed on time and so on. It’s just harder in some homes and communities than others. That is all.
I had to be home when when the street lights came on until I was 16 and could drive after dark. By that time, I had earned the right to stay out as late as I liked as long as I told my parents where I was going to be….but that happened to never be out on the street–always in someone’s house. Times and places were/are different. YMMV, y’know.
Why is data needed to institute a curfew? My hometown didn’t have a study to determine whether or not 16 year olds needed to be home by 10:00, common sense told them that… and they passed the law long before we moved there and it’s still in place today. Kids in my hometown know that they’re supposed to be home by 10:00. I don’t know, maybe it’s just a Midwest common sense thing.
@steven
Exactly. I clearly remember a neighbor coming to our door to tell my mother she had seen my 8th grade brother smoking.
Today, the prevalent attitude in many areas is “it ain’t illegal if you don’t get caught”.
Kathryn,
It’s kind of funny in a twisted way that a Columbia judge could sentence a potentially college-bound child to 45 days in DJJ during the middle of the semester for having 5 unexecused absences from school in a year (all the while ranting how the judge is going to make sure that the child learns her lesson and will think about her responsibilities when she becomes a mother in a few years) and yet this same legal system cannot bring itself to say that children do not belong on the street in the middle of the night.
It is a strange world.
But thank you for playing a role in pushing for a juvenille curfew of any sort. It’s a targeted response to a real issue.
And, really, are many of you that naive to think that blog posts and editorials and newspaper articles are going to correct the serious social issues afflicting the black community? Somebody has to DO something! Talk is cheap. Curfews are bandaids.
And how about if we can’t print the names of the juvenile thugs who beat up the Strange kid, we print the names of their parents in the paper. There’s a way the media could step up and do something.
Kathryn – glad to hear Caroline is involved.
Kathryn, the same thing can be said for all classes of people, you’re going to have those who obey the law and those who are going to do everything within their power to break the law. I fail to understand how wealth has any bearing on common sense. Most people learn right from wrong early on, if they don’t it’s their parents problem, which is why I don’t have a problem with them being held accountable. If I broke a window as a kid, my parents were responsible for repairing it. Is this different today? If you don’t care if your kid is picked up for breaking curfew, the police are going to trouble you by calling you in the middle of the night and trouble you even more by hopefully making you pay a fine (or fee for allowing your underage kid to be out past curfew). If punishment is going to be a slap on the fingers, there’s nothing keeping from them repeating these actions… if it possibly means not having power next month it’s now a big deal and the parents will make sure everyone is home by curfew. Life is hard for everyone.
Also, maybe instead of a monetary fine, there could be community service. $50 or 10 hours of community service for breaking curfew.
and Doug, aren’t parents responsible for minors living within their household? Can’t Strange sue the parents of the minors who beat him if they are found guilty? Bad parents or parents of bad children need to be face consequences for those living under their roof.
Everyone is talking about all of this as failed leadership on Steve Benjamin’s part. I happen to agree. The State newspaper is giving scant coverage to the crime issue. A curfew does not solve the gang and crime problem. Why isn’t Benjamin out front on this ans seriously stepping up policing of Columbia? Columbia is getting some bad national attention.
@Mike
Mayor Benjamin moved out of Eau Claire for the peace and quiet of Woodcreek Farms (where Steve Spurrier lives) in northeast Columbia sometime in the past two years. I don’t blame him for doing that because it was probably the best thing for his children but it does send a subtle message.
Yes, it does send a message, Doug. It says “I care enough about my kids to get them away from bad influences, and with richer kids,” among other things.
Life is harder for poor people, sorry.
and you can certainly sue (and win!) the parents (ha ha—wanna bet there are two around for most of these kids)–but you can’t get blood out of a turnip.
Doug–I am genuinely interested in what you think the City of Columbia or its residents, including me, can do to address the underlying issues.
Steve moved to a far fancier house than any I know of in Eau Claire, and a new one, to boot–none of those pesky lead paint, etc., issues. He has small kids–don’t want them around lead paint, for one thing.
I don’t think “everyone” is talking about this as failed leadership on the mayor’s part– the people I know realize that the mayor is only one of seven, and that there is only so much anyone can do. Even if you wanted to carpet Five Points with cops, you still need to cover the rest of the city, and there are only so many cops, tax dollars to pay them and qualified potential new hires….
I do commend Belinda Gergel for taking the lead on this, though, and going far above the call of duty! Of course, she doesn’t need a day job like the rest of the council does–not to diminish her contribution of her time in any way!! Go, Belinda!
This said a lot about where the 5 Points problem starts.
http://www.free-times.com/index.php?cat=1992912064017974&ShowArticle_ID=11012806111630071
@Kathryn – wage garnishment, even if she (since he is typically out of the picture) scrubs toilets for a living, you can still collect something. Even if you can’t, you still repeatedly drag her into court and inconvenience her. Nobody ever said being a parent was easy (making the kid was the easy part), and if you’re a bad parent it just makes it all that much harder… especially when you raise a thug.
I know poor people who worked hard and made it, I also know poor people who worked hard and didn’t make it. But many of the “poor” I see in Columbia don’t even try to make it… and those are the ones that I don’t have any sympathy for. If one of those does something to negatively affect me or my family… life is going to be A LOT harder for them.
“Doug–I am genuinely interested in what you think the City of Columbia or its residents, including me, can do to address the underlying issues. ”
Nothing. It’s a problem that can’t be solved by other people.
It’s about individual choices to behave badly. People who choose to attack an innocent kid and beat him senseless are broken, probably beyond repair without active individualized attention from some adult who has both authority and respect.
There will always be crime. That’s why we have cops.
Cops who should get kids off the streets at night. Which brings us full-circle.
Good. I’m glad to see that we’re doing the thing we can do.
***Not necessarily for public consumption***
Steven Davis — are you the former walt (who was banned) resurrected?
If so, you don’t live in Columbia or even South Carolina (I would be willing to bet) so what the hell do you know about anything?
Sorry Brad — but he is getting on my nerves.
Standing on the street is not a crime.
It’s not a felony. I believe it’s called a status offense. “Crime” seems a bit strong.
But think about what everything you said, Doug. This IS what we can do, and if you follow your own logic, it is what we should do. Otherwise, you’re counseling despair. You’re saying, there’s nothing we can do, so we should resign ourselves to the fact that such crime will exist.
There is a basic problem with the thinking of many of my libertarian friends. Whether we’re talking crime or public education or whatever, they say, “WE shouldn’t have to do that! Their PARENTS should be doing that!”
Fine. The thing is, in many (if not all) of these instamces, we agree — the parent SHOULD do those things.
But usually, we’re talking about a case in which the parents won’t (or can’t, or whatever — doesn’t matter; for us, it adds up to the same thing). Yet WE STILL have this problem. These discussions are about what we should do, in light of the fact that neither the parents nor anyone else is going to do it.
Yeah, Doug. It’s about individual choices, especially about choosing the wrong parents.
It is a status offense–something that would not be a crime if done by an adult.
@Mab – “what the hell do I know about anything”… Let’s see, I work in Columbia, used to live in Columbia, spend money in Columbia. I live in Lexington.
Maybe you’re thinking about Brad’s high school buddy, Burl, who lives in Hawaii and probably hasn’t stepped foot in SC in decades but has a say in just about every discussion… you know the person you don’t have a problem with.
Are you forced to read what I say? The last I heard, reading Brad’s blog is voluntary.
@Brad – If someone here gets on my nerves, can I ask them to leave? If so, bud would have been asked long ago.
I’m actually surprised that Brad allowed that post to be published, considering what he’s deleted of mine that he considered an attack and not important to the current discussion… I guess Mab’s comments had some value to this discussion.
I’m curious as to Mab’s question about what I know about anything assuming I didn’t live in Columbia. Is raising a kid in Columbia different than raising a kid elsewhere? Is there something special I need to know about raising kids in Columbia? This has me wondering about what I didn’t know when I did live within city limits.
@Brad
You’ll have to show me the statistics a year from now that crime in the city of Columbia has dropped as a result of the curfew in Five Points. My point remains that the curfew only moves the crime elsewhere, it doesn’t do anything to deal with the real issues.
@Karen
So the 19 year kid who repeatedly kicked and punched the Strange boy in the head, fracturing his skull, and nearly killing him had no idea that what he was doing was wrong? That we just need to say “oh, poor fella, if someone had just told you once in your life that beating down other people isn’t nice”, he never would have done it?
There are and always will be criminals. Some are born, some are made. There will always be the need for police and prisons because of that. Maybe if our police force and judicial system stopped wasting time prosecuting victimless crimes related to drugs they’d have more time to address crimes of violence. There’s something we could start with – decriminalize marijuana.
I’m responding to Brad, not Karen, although my comment works for what she wrote to, kind of…
@Karen
Would you support sterilization of parents who you don’t consider worthy?
“””***Not necessarily for public consumption***
Steven Davis — are you the former walt (who was banned) resurrected?
If so, you don’t live in Columbia or even South Carolina (I would be willing to bet) so what the hell do you know about anything?
Sorry Brad — but he is getting on my nerves.”””
Then take something for it.
This pretty much says it all. Whether I agree with Steven Davis or not is of no consequence. Whether I agree with bud or not is of no consequence. Both have the right to voice their opinion and join in the conversation. So far, haven’t read comments from either one going directly after another person with invectives and inflammatory comments, have you?
Some have been banned because of their destructive language, objectionable comments and behavior but Steven Davis has done nothing other than voice his opinion.
If a dissenting opinion is a crime, look for my photo on the post office Most Wanted bulletin board.
@Doug – I mentioned something along that line to a discussion on WIS. It didn’t go over too well, and was even called a Nazi. When all I said was that people like these thugs shouldn’t be allowed to breed, and the system has ways to make this happen.
Steven (and Bart):
I allowed that comment from Mab, even though it wasn’t “necessarily for public consumption,” because I was going to respond to it. Then I got interrupted by real life for an hour or so.
Here’s what I was going to say:
No, Mab, I’m pretty sure Steven is not Walt. “Walt” MAY be, but I’m not at all sure, someone whose actual name is Walt.
The Walt I’m thinking of used to write antisemitic, and sometimes racist, letters to the editor. He was unusual in that he gave his full name and address, even though his letters were of a sort that we usually got anonymously.
In any case… Steven is not Walt. Steven has been known here as Michael, and Fred, and Luke, and probably other names I forget. He’s been banned from the blog under more than one name.
But I think he’s been a lot more relevant and on-point, most of the time, as Steven than under the other names. And when he isn’t, I don’t allow his comments.
Of course, I’m less sensitive than some readers. So sometimes when I allow a comment, it offends others. It’s hard to know when to draw the line. I go by my own standard, adjusting it sometimes when I get a lot of complaints from readers. Steven has generated such complaints in the past, but as I say, not as often under this name.
Bart — I’m a curmudgeon.
Steven Davis —
1. You’re are a little harsh with the cleaning toilets, court dragging, and inconveniencing, all maternally directed.
2. I still say you are the former poster known as (FPKA) walt.
“Peace and blessings.”
Maybe if our police force and judicial system stopped wasting time prosecuting victimless crimes related to drugs they’d have more time to address crimes of violence. There’s something we could start with – decriminalize marijuana.
Wasting time? The police force and judicial system don’t write the law. And until the laws are changed, we should enforce them, right?
It’s funny how you are concerned about the bad law on this issue and not the lawbreakers. But on another issue you are very passive about changing the bad law and yet deeply concerned with cracking down on the lawbreakers. That’s pretty inconsistent.
But maybe it’s just because drugs are a “victimless crime”; I’m sure there are no parents using drugs instead of making sure their children aren’t roaming the street and getting into trouble.
Doug, no I don’t think that young man would have refrained from beating Mr. Strange if someone had simply told him it was wrong. It takes years and years of hard, persistant work to turn a naturally narcissistic human child into a socialized adult. You can see varying degrees of failure everywhere. This work has to start at the cradle. I suspect that if it’s not been done by the time the child is a teenager, then the ‘window’ where these things can be learned has past. Like I said, you need to be very careful about whom you choose for parents. I would not support sterilization, but I am to the point where I would support (voluntary or involuntary, and not requiring the woman to take pills or otherwise actively participate to work) contraception until such time as the mother in question could demonstrate the ability to properly care for her children.
That would be “passed.”
@David
Duh – illegal entry into the U.S. is a crime no matter where it happens. Standing on a street corner in a small section of town at age 17 year 11 months and 29 days is not and should not be.
I’m being very consistent. I want to see the laws changed on drug use so resources can be used on real crime. Until they are changed, I expect the laws to be enforced. Will you agree that until the illegal immigration laws are changed, they should be enforced? I don’t think so.
Try again.
@Karen
So we agree. There is little to be done about teenage criminals who have no problem with beating up others. And I agree that they are lost souls from day one. But a curfew in Five Points won’t make any difference in the circumstances that created the thug.
@Mab
“Steven Davis —
1. You’re are a little harsh with the cleaning toilets, court dragging, and inconveniencing, all maternally directed.”
Sorry, real life in my world isn’t all rainbows and bunnies. If you birth an raise a thug, your child says a lot about you as a parent.
2. I still say you are the former poster known as (FPKA) walt.”
Hey, good for you… I don’t know you so what you think really doesn’t concern me.
A curfew won’t make any difference in the circumstances that created the thugs, but it will help protect the peaceful people in 5pts from being attacked by them. We do what we can, and as long as people won’t pay for more, this is the best we can do.
OK, Steven and Mab — I’m not approving any more of y’all’s comments about EACH OTHER on this thread. And no, don’t resume the battle on another thread, because I won’t approve it there, either.
Not only am I tired of it, I’m getting sidebar gripes from others.
Feel free to comment on other topics.
“Yessir.”
Brad’s “I’m glad to see that we’re doing the thing we can do.” hits the nail on the head.
About fatherhood, years ago, Dan Rather reported on young elephants born in captivity being released either in the wild or on a large reserve. The young bull elephants terrorized the area. An older bull elepnant was air-lifted into the area and whipped those “boys” into shape. It’s easy to translate that to say, men are important in teaching boys/men how to be respectful, handle anger, be productive and responsible.
But as Brad (and Karen) said, the city is doing what it can do. If everyone behaved and did what he/she was supposed to do, we wouldn’t need laws or police.
Uh oh. Brad’s turning into the alpha blogger. So be careful.
Brad’s always been the alpha blogger–his name is up top, folks!
@Pat – So the solution is to get adult black males to come in and put these young thugs in their place. How do you suggest we do that?
The only way I can see to even get a handle on it, as a nation, would be to institute the military draft and require every male to serve 2 years of military service at age 18 (or 16 if they drop out of school). I’ve seen high school students who were headed for one of two places, prison or the cemetery, turn their lives around by joining the military.
Every once in awhile, Steven and I agree on something.
Only this time, let’s not exempt people like me for stupid reasons. Asthma is manageable.
Brad you might want to buy a lottery ticket on your way home tonight.
Why just males, and why does it have to be military–there are plenty of needs out there –some sort of structured national service for everyone.
Brad, I have no problem with a universal draft, as long as it’s universal: 2 yrs service for everyone physically/mentally capable (non military, but useful service for conscientious objectors).
Kathryn… sigh… because girls, as a general rule, don’t roam the streets looking for random people to beat the hell out of.
In case you haven’t noticed.
In a draft, you want to consider first and foremost the needs of the military. And there is no question that — if the Army got to pick among the whole population (which is kind of the idea behind SELECTIVE service, done right) — most of the people who would be picked would be healthy young males between the ages of 17 and 25. That demographic group has what you’re looking for in an enlisted soldier. Yep, you’d have outliers who would fit — some women, some older guys. But the fact is that if you limit it to guys in that one demographic group, you’d have many times the number of soldiers you would need — and you could pick and choose the best among them. You wouldn’t have to settle for folks who just barely met some minimum qualification. (Which is why I have to admit that while guys like me with asthma COULD serve, there’s no particular reason why the Army should want to mess with us if it had its choice among guys WITHOUT asthma. We don’t have an Army to boost my self-esteem or satisfy my desire to serve. We have it to for the good of the country.)
Secondly — aside from the needs of the military, which is the first consideration — if you ARE looking at having a draft as a way of addressing social problem of the larger, civilian society… then you want that same demographic. Young guys are the problem. Channeling their impulses (toward, for instance, violence) and teaching them strict discipline is a way of addressing that problem effectively.
@Kathryn – because I don’t believe the Peace Corp. is going to tolerate the boot camp agenda needed for it’s new recruits.
@Steve There are actually a number of “big brother” type programs but not enough of them. They have to be available at every stage of life, not just for the teens. Male elementary teachers are sought after. Boys and Girls Clubs are good. Multiple types of programs are needed to make up for not having an engaged father in the home.
The draft did serve at one time in getting young men out of their environment and into one of discipline; it was probably salvation for many. These days, it would be too late for a lot of kids. The military doesn’t want young adults already saddled with criminal baggage. The problem seems overwhelming except when I think of the starfish story. Throwing everything you have at it might save only one boy, but it would be worth it to that one.
If I focus on what I can do, can you focus on what you can do?
Brad, chances are that the kids in the group that beat Mr. Strange up would not be accepted by the military if one limited the draft.
We don’t have an Army to boost my self-esteem or satisfy my desire to serve. We have it to for the good of the country.)
-Brad
More and more we have it merely to project some macho image that a president brimming with testostorine wants to convey to the rest of the world. It’s rarely used “for the good of the country” anymore. That’s a rather quaint but obviously flawed observation.
@Karen – Not under today’s military guidelines where drill instructors have to be sensitive and caring. But roll back the military back about 25 years when they took people a lot less desirable than these 8 thugs and forced them to be basically decent citizens. I bet drill sergeants can break just about any thug down into whatever they want. The Marines tell recruits the quickest and easiest way off Paris Island is to graduate. For those who fight the system, it’s a miserable existence.
@bud – So Obama is brimming with testosterone? That’s not exactly what I see when I look and hear him.