So far, it’s only bulletins, and responsible news agencies are waiting until they’ve actually read and absorbed it all, as indicated by this notice from The New York Times:
The Supreme Court has ruled on President Obama’s health-care overhaul, and Times reporters and editors are analyzing the decision. Once we are comfortable with its basic meaning, you can expect a torrent of coverage.
But what we have is this: The mandate is upheld, and apparently the rest of the law, except a provision whereby the federal government would dictate to the states what they may do with Medicaid.
It was a 5-4 decision, with Justices Scalia, Kennedy, Alito and Thomas dissenting.
Of course, it should have been 9-0, as the notion that the mandate was unconstitutional was never founded in reality.
If you want to read the decision yourself, here it is.
So here’s the good news: The Constitution, thank goodness, does not stand as a bar to health care reform in this country (a mandate, or some means for getting everyone into the system, being essential to any kind of actual solution).
Obamacare falls far short of being the reform we need (which is single-payer, of course), but at least the pathway is open to real reform as we go forward. And this law is a start.
We can all be thankful for that. And we should be. Many won’t, of course, and that’s a terrible shame, as it is the measure of how terribly divided we are as a country. But at least the hope of a sensible health care system was not destroyed today, whether everyone understands that or not.
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Senator DeMint:
Meet your Waterloo! Accept defeat and surrender.
So the mandate IS a tax? Obama said that it wasn’t.
Victory for whom? What’s the next thing the government require that we buy or face jail/fines?
This is not going to end well… Obama and the other Democrats may just realize how the Japanese leaders felt minutes after they realized that their attack on Pearl Harbor turned out to be the mother of all sucker punches.
I hope someone is taping the Rush Limbaugh show today so we can all watch his head explode.
Politically speaking I’m going to go out on a limb and say this greatly improves the President’s chance for re-election. The pundits have demured in various ways on that aspect of the ruling but it just seems like Obama scored a victory and people like winners. That’s my simple analysis.
Explain this to me. If I don’t have health insurance and can’t afford to pay for the mandatory health insurance under Obamacare I get fined. What if I can’t afford to or refuse to pay the fine? Do I get sent to prison?
This just in:
“Following up on his healthcare victory, President Obama has asked congressional leaders to introduce and pass legislation that would require Steven Davis II to donate 10 percent of his income to NPR and PBS.”
More details as they develop. 🙂
Sorry. I just can’t take “slippery slope” arguments seriously…
This will certainly get the libertarians, fundies and conservatives a bit more excited about Romney… If they were thinking of staying home before, they won’t be now.
Does bud realize that there were more people opposed to Obamacare than for it? How does that strengthen his chances for re-election?
“What if I can’t afford to or refuse to pay the fine? Do I get sent to prison?”
What happens if you can’t pay your other taxes? Do you go to prison? No, you do not.
Not all is lost, we get a little payback today with Holder, and we get to see the CBC members walk out in disgust.
Silence says, “This will certainly get the libertarians, fundies and conservatives a bit more excited about Romney… If they were thinking of staying home before, they won’t be now.”
How do you figure? Why would this cause them to embrace the natural father of Obamacare? This was a great day for Romney, although he won’t admit it. His signature achievement as governor was just vindicated. Don’t see how that would cause the parties you mention to love him more.
@David
Really? You can’t go to prison for not paying taxes? Where did you come up with that idea?
Do you recall Richard Hatch, the winner of the first Survivor reality show? He spent more than a year for failing to pay his taxes on his $1 million dollar winnings.
Steven’s question is absolutely valid: if you can’t afford to pay for the mandated insurance, how do you pay for it? do you just pay the tax/fine instead since it is cheaper than the insurance?
And I’m guessing it would be cheaper to make a $10 donation to the Christian Scientist church and claim membership.
Because a mandate is only a mandate for those people who aren’t philosophically opposed to the mandate.
I’ve always liked Chief Justice Roberts, and am particularly pleased with him today. And I’m reading commentary like this with particular interest:
“Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. surprised many on Thursday by providing the crucial fifth vote for upholding President Obama’s health care law. To those on the left who viewed him as an ideologue eager to pull the court rightward in a political fashion, this will now begin a re-examination of his style and legacy as it will for those on the right who considered the law unconstitutional and relied on him to make that point.
“Many scholars have said that Chief Justice Roberts sought to balance his own conservatism with his desire to build faith in the law and the nation’s legal institutions. But it was still striking to hear Mr. Roberts, who arrived on the court in 2005 appointed by George W. Bush, announce the upholding of the central legislative pillar of the Obama administration. He did arrive on the bench asserting the desire to restore the court’s reputation and reduce partisan rhetoric. But he was seen by many, at least on the left, as a right-winger more devoted to conservative politics than the purity of the law. That could change.”
Doug,
I do not recall Richard Hatch. But if he went to prison it wasn’t because he couldn’t pay. I’d bet he was guilty of tax evasion.
I was surprised Kennedy fell on the dissenting side. It was never going to be 9-0, but I imagine Kennedy will regret his stance as the years roll on.
Steven, polls consistently show the large majority of Americans take after our celebrity Upstater who exclaimed “keep your government hands off my Medicare” – or something like that. People like the individual components, but can’t seem to view the entirety as the thing that enables the particular pieces that meet their healthcare needs. There will never be a perfect solution; this is, however, a huge step forward.
Robert’s is the law and order guy.
Monday he dissented in favor of expansive government police powers. Today he wrote the majority opinion asserting the government’s right to tax.
He may not be a big government guy, but he is a powerful government guy.
@David
Semantics. If you owe taxes and can’t pay them, you go to jail. Anyway, all the people who can’t afford the mandated insurance fall into the “don’t pay income taxes anyway” category. So I’m sure those of us who do pay will just be picking up their insurance costs anyway.
@mark
We haven’t seen the “entirety” of the bill yet. Most of it doesn’t kick in until 2014 (there’s a reason for that).
Wait til the tax on medical devices kicks in. Think that will create more jobs?
I think the rejection of the pass-through to state Medicaid programs proves Roberts is the powerful government type. Requiring the states to shoulder that burden was a typical congressional pass the buck and take the praise. Roberts said with the power comes responsibility; if the benefit of this is to us all as a country, than Congress has to figure out how to pay for it on a national basis. So he’s for stronger states and a stronger federal government.
So you’re saying Roberts is like Uncle Ben in Spider-Man?
Changing the subject: Mark why have you started signing your comments with an open-quotes mark before your name? Does that have some significance?
If you owe taxes and can’t pay – the IRS will garnish your wages, sieze bank accounts, help you work out a repayment plan, etc. etc. Ultimately though, the threat of jail forces compliance with our “voluntary” tax code.
As I write this, Wesley Snipes is still rotting in jail for failure to file his taxes.
@David – “What happens if you can’t pay your other taxes? Do you go to prison? No, you do not.”
So Obamacare wiped out income tax evasion too?
@David – “But if he went to prison it wasn’t because he couldn’t pay. I’d bet he was guilty of tax evasion.”
What’s the difference? The taxes didn’t get paid and he went to jail. If you can’t pay or won’t pay, the penalty is the same.
Doug,
Owing taxes and willfully not paying them is different from and has different consequences than owing taxes and not being able to pay them. That is not semantics.
And it’s not that complicated.
Nope. I’m all thumbs on the phone.
I think that he has cemented his legacy as a jurist. There is also something faintly alarming to his conception of federal power; he’s Hamiltonian, without doubt. Or maybe I’ve been here in the South a good while?
Brad – Where’s my response to your little NPR and PBS joke? You’ll single people out but reject their response?
“If you owe taxes and can’t pay them, you go to jail.” -Doug
Doug, please direct me to the applicable federal law that says this.
If you don’t like the ACA, vote for someone who will repeal it, or don’t vote for the people who passed it.
Just don’t look for the Supreme Court to bail you out.
Fair enough, I can live with that.
@ Brad – Romney’s done more than not admit it. He’s repudiated the program, and said that it is was too expensive in MA. I think the phrase was something like, “President Obama should have called me and asked me about what worked in Mass. and what didn’t.” (note, not a direct quote, but me paraphrasing Governor Romney’s remarks)
I was on the treadmill when the news came through, and I had to choke back tears. I’m not entirely sure why. I do not think any of us knows what this really means politically. Switching between the various pundits stations, there’s a lot of support for that it hurts and that it helps the President’s re-election chances.
I think the choice of the taxing powers instead of Commerce Clause powers is interesting. For the record, the administration *did* argue that in Court, despite having denied it when the laws were passed. I wonder if Roberts was setting up the “meme” you describe in the next post, or whether he truly believed it was the correct application.
Doug Ross head is already exploding.
I’ve heard all the horse race arguments before and most of them just seem to over analyze this. Americans love winners. They value a president who succeeds even if its for policies that they do not personally favor. I think that’s why the excruciatingly awful Andrew Jackson is regarded as a good or even great president – he took bold positions on things and won. In contrast Jimmy Carter seemed weak even though his policies were generally supported by the public. The failed rescue attempt showed him to be a loser. The best example of all is Ronald Reagan. There was a president who implemented the single biggest scandal in American history (Iran-Contra), ran up a staggering deficit and began our long journey into the enormous income inequality since before Teddy Roosevelt. But that is largely forgotten because he was perceived as a winner and a strong leader. I think Obama will now be viewed as a winner too and he’ll win the election in a landslide.
That’s what i want to know Steven!!! What if I can’t afford “free health care”? How could anyone support something they know nothing about? How much will we be taxed? What will the coverage be? I’m hoping my state ops out. Then the ones here that support it. “non workers” will flock to a state that is in. We’ll see how that works out!!
In other candy-ass Supreme Court rulings today, “Supreme Court strikes down Stolen Valor Act”.
@David
Then tell me what happens to people who owe taxes and do not pay them? Nothing? If so, maybe I’ll do the same… can I reference your post when I go before the judge?
It gets better:
“The individual mandate requires most Americans to maintain “minimum essential” health insurance coverage.26 U. S. C. §5000A. The mandate does not apply to some individuals, such as prisoners and undocumented aliens.§5000A(d).”
So if you’re here illegally, please continue abusing the medical facilities as you have been prior to this decision.
@ eric–yes, those poor people just jet around. The big problem with poor people is that they seldom relocate, even when better opportunities might be found elsewhere.
@ Doug – If the IRS determines that you can’t pay the taxes & penalties, they’ll probably settle for less. If they determine that you can but won’t pay it’s off to PMITA prison.
If you want to committ tax evasion your best bet is to blow all the money prior to the IRS showing up.
Or donate to the President – like Marc Rich.
@Doug– What happens to people who owe taxes and do not pay them depends. If they cannot pay them, as determined by an IRS officer or a judge, there is a payment plan worked out. If they simply refuse to pay them, their assets are seized to pay them. If that’s not enough, see number 1. If they evade paying taxes through fraud or other dishonesty, they may be incarcerated, but then that’s because they lied.
The ACA itself forbids criminal prosecution or levying liens for failure to pay the penalty.
(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES.—In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.
(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES.—The Secretary shall not—
(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section, or
(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.
It’s on page 131 of the bill located here:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590enr/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590enr.pdf
I just saw a TV crawl that read JUSTICE ROBERTS JOINS LEFT IN 5-4 DECISION
Once again, it’s “left” to work toward a healthy and educated citizenship. This should be the goal of everybody. Are we trying to turn the US into Somalia?
@ Norm – so the penalty is voluntary?
@ Silence and Norm–I heard something to that effect on TV this morning.
Norm Ivey’s right. Worst that can happen is withholding your refund.
I see that Libertarian presidential candidate Gary Johnson has condemned the court’s decision.
If I’d had any doubts about the court’s wisdom before now, this would banish them: The Court DEFINITELY did right…
How did blowing all the money before the tax man showed up work out for Willie Nelson?
Steven says,
“Explain this to me. If I don’t have health insurance and can’t afford to pay for the mandatory health insurance under Obamacare I get fined. What if I can’t afford to or refuse to pay the fine? Do I get sent to prison?”
Most of the coverage I heard today made a huge, very big, oft repeated point of saying that noncompliance is NOT a criminal offense. Not Not Not, they said. Over and Over again they said it. So this makes me wonder, did you listen to any of the coverage today?
I’m pretty sure you are equally misinformed about your initial premise, as well. If you don’t have health insurance and can’t afford to buy it, then I don’t think you get fined, I think you qualify for subsidies. You get fined when you can afford it but refuse to buy it. Which is not the same thing. I could be wrong, but that is my understanding.
I think a lot of people mistakenly imagine that they are going to be mandated to buy health insurance at today’s prices – which would admittedly be a huge problem for lots of people. The whole point is that the system is out of whack, as current prices for individual private policies attest. The provisions in the law which are supposed to create markets where insurance becomes more affordable are not in effect yet, so it is not possible to judge how it will be based on current market data. I really don’t know why this is so hard to understand. It makes me think people just aren’t willing to try to understand, that they are content to let themselves be easily led without evaluating anything they hear for themselves. They probably don’t know that they are being misled. It is very depressing.
@ ‘Kathryn & Norm – I am all for vountary penalties since I won’t be paying them. It’s like the “check here to pay an extra dollar to support campaign finance” or whatever nonsense is on the 1040 form. I’m like: “um, how ’bout no, Scotty?” in my best Dr. Evil voice.
@Worth – so I would just make sure to under-withhold?
@ KP – Willie released an IRS benefit album and cleared up his debts. Most of us don’t have that option though.
@ SDII – If I think back very hard, I can still remember my first Congressional Medal of Honor. Back when I was a Navy SEAL-Astronaut-Olympic Decathlete in Vietnam. I threw it back during a protest in DC as the war was winding down, but I accidentally threw back my moonrocks and Olympic gold medals too. Sure wish I still had those. (Never mind that I wasn’t born until after the Apollo program and the Vietnam war had ended.)
Scout is correct.
@Silence–If these people are getting a sizable refund, I think fiddling with their withholding, a smart move even without the mandate, is beyond their comprehension–as is the advisability of purchasing health coverage. Just because you are unlikely to get sick, doesn’t mean you won’t be unlucky or get into a car wreck, or…..
@Silence – Are you Walid Hakim by any chance?
I remember giving my Silver Star to the kid down the street, it clashed with the three Medal of Honor medals that I received in three wars I fought in… WWII, Vietnam and Afghanistan.
@Scout – Sorry, I was working and didn’t have time to sit around and listen to the details repeated over and over throughout the day.
This whole penalty thing was thought out pretty well. If I can afford insurance but don’t get it, I am told to pay a “pentalty/tax”. If I decide not to pay it, the government forgives it and nothing happens. Will this loophole be abused? Probably not at all.
@Brad – Are you questioning me? If you’d like you can go to any gun show and find some of my fellow teammates who are now disguised as 400 pound beef jerky salesmen.
@’Kathryn – I tend to agree, but there is ample evidence that ignorant poor people are often very good at taking advantage of intricate details of government programs. Ever watch the documentary about the Wild Wonderful Whites of West Virginia?
Of course, now you don’t need to actually carry health insurance b/c you can just wait to buy it until after you get sick, sans penalty or adverse result.
I wish I could do the same thing with my auto collision and my homeowner’s insurance. I’d save a bundle.
Now before any of y’all try to call SDII on what he just said, remember that the Court ruled yesterday that that is protected speech…
Interesting question posed on another forum.
If you can get insurance for pre-existing conditions ,can you just wait until you’re hurt or sick to get insurance?
They’re comparing this to being able to get homeowner’s insurance right after your house burns down.