As I noted about the protest in Egypt yesterday on my Virtual Front Page, “As is so often the case with most vehement protests in this region, it’s about some film that most Americans have never heard of. In fact, the Post reported, ‘It was not immediately clear what film they were referring to.'”
Since then, people protesting the exact same idiotic thing that no one at the embassy, and none of the 300-million-plus people in this country except for that one guy, had anything to do with, killed the United States Ambassador to Libya.
President Obama says “Make no mistake, justice will be done.” And you know Obama — if you make his list, your posterior is grass.
But come on — what can we really be done to prevent this kind of thing happening again? That’s what I want to know. What do we do about the fact that in that part of the world, homicidal mobs crop up for no logical reason whatsoever at the drop of a hat? Oh, I suppose we could do like Bud and Doug would have us do, and pull all Americans out of the rest of the world and roll up the welcome mat and board our windows here at home.
We’ve already decided as a nation (well, the rest of y’all have; I haven’t) that we don’t like the neocon approach of using every bit of leverage at our command — economic, diplomatic, humanitarian and yes, when called for, military — to make every possible effort to help those countries join the post-Medieval age.
So, other than disengaging with the world entirely — which, by the way, would just mean other Westerners would be murdered at random, and locals if they can’t find any Westerners, for the most absurd of non-reasons — does anyone have any suggestions? ‘Cause I don’t.
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And here, representing the extreme isolationist position to which I referred somewhat facetiously above, is Libertarian presidential hopeful Gary Johnson:
“It is tragic when Americans serving their country are murdered, and we both mourn their loss and honor their service.
“Part of honoring that service is to ask the obvious question: What U.S. interest is being served by putting our people – and our money – in places where U.S. personnel can be killed by extremists over a video? We launched millions of dollars worth of missiles to bring down Gaddafi, and this is what we get. We hail and encourage the outbreak of an Arab Spring in Egypt, send them billions of dollars we can’t afford, — and our embassy is breached and our flag desecrated.
“In Afghanistan, we continue to put our troops in harm’s way 10 years after our post-9/11 mission was complete. Why?
“The airwaves are filled today with political chest-pounding and calls for decisive action. The most decisive and prudent action we can take today is to stop trying to manage governments and peoples on the other side of the globe who don’t want to be managed, get our people out of impossible situations that have no direct U.S. interest, and immediately stop sending money to regimes who clearly cannot or will not control their own countries.
“Protecting America with a strong national defense and a rational foreign policy is our leaders’ most basic responsibility. But let us not confuse national security with senseless intervention where our interests are clearly not being served.”
I like the part where he “honors their service,” right before he says that service was worthless, because they shouldn’t have been there representing us to begin with. Nothing like being “honored” by the Libertarian candidate…
We should engage with those countries that want us to engage with them. That’s no isolationism, it’s pragmatism.
Do you really think there is some course of action that will eradicate anti-American feelings in some Middle Eastern countries? Other than buying them off with money we don’t have, what else (besides killing people) will have an impact?
How often do you spend time in places you aren’t wanted?
“I like the part where he “honors their service,” right before he says that service was worthless”
So do I. We’d have a lot fewer grieving families if we didn’t ask our servicemen to complete futile missions.
Actually, as a journalist, I’ve gone to places where I wasn’t quite a lot.
But since I got married, had kids and settled down before pursuing my youthful dream of being a war correspondent, I have NOT often been in places where people would just as soon kill me as look at me. But for those who DO have those more exciting assignments, that’s the job.
Of course Mitt Romney and his minions are politicizing that accussing the president of apologizing to the killers for the insensitive movie. Nevermind that didn’t happen. Oh well no need to let the facts get in the way of a good opportunity to politicize.
My suggested answer to your question: is to re-elect Obama and keep the grownups in charge of foreign policy in a very complex and “confounding” world, to use Sec’y Clinton’s term. The search for the easy answer can be in itself a dangerous trap.
I highly recommend that everybody watch this video of comments by Sec’y of State Clinton. There’s no better illustration of the fact that the grownups are back running foreign policy now than the first 35 seconds of her comments.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19576729
Of course now, all of that said, the administration is saying that maybe this was planned, rather than being a crowd spontaneously getting out of control…
Random? I think not. Religious zealots. Bill Maher had a point. Religion is not always a force for good.
PEOPLE are often not a force for good. Religion is but one of many excuses they use for their evil.
“But come on — what can we really be done to prevent this kind of thing happening again?”
Give orders to the US Marines that anyone who improperly crosses onto the property of an embassy (sovereign US territory I would note) will be subjected to concentrated rifle fire. No warning shots. Shoot to kill hostile invaders of embassies.
Obviously, large mobs can overpower a small garrison of Marines, but very few mobs will advance through concentrated fire.A few Marines can do severe damage to a mob. Only the most dedicated fanatics will advance under fire.
I don’t think there are any religious zealots. There are political zealots who use religion as a tool to foment rage.
People are the necessary instrumentality of religion.
How many atheists do this kind of thing?
Actually, Marines are largely no longer in charge of embassy security. One of the legacies of the Bush years, when many military duties were farmed out to private corporations.
In this case, there seems to have been two separate incidents a few hours apart that got conflated, — a noisy, largely yelling protest party and later, a concentrated assault using military weapons.
The situation is evolving, as this starts to look more like a deliberate attack timed to coincide with 9/11. Marine reinforcements have been dispatched, and we have two warships en route.
And Burl, I did not realize that. How do you have an embassy without Marines?
“I don’t think there are any religious zealots. There are political zealots who use religion as a tool to foment rage.”…Tim
An excellent point and for the most part, I am in total agreement with you. My comment is that I did work in the ME and I can attest to the fact that their religion is the basis of the beliefs of zealots and for the most part, their religion is basically the center point of life even for the average citizen.
This may not be easily understood unless you have worked in and around a predominantly religious citizenry who have a large percentage of religious leaders who are more than willing to encourage their adherents to die for a particular prophet or religion.
When religion and politics are one in the same, it is almost impossible to make a distinction between the two. The way the religion in question is practiced in America has a very different face than the one devoutly practiced in their homeland(s). Some are more moderate than others and they do have their own unique brand of secularism but it is not as out in the open as the secular community is in America. If it was to be practiced openly in some of the ME countries and a powerful religious leader was to object, stoning is still considered an appropriate punishment.
Technically, Stevens and staff were in a “consulate,” not an embassy, and therefore did not rate Marine SG protection.
If one were to strike a few of his words, Bart’s viewpoint would be as applicable here.
The middle east is a large swath of territory of varying degress of stability, but I would guess from your statement, Bart, that you never befriended any local residents and never attended prayers at a mosque with them? Give it a try sometime; it’s a worthwhile experience to explore religions other than our own from a personal, firsthand perspective.
Burl, I can’t find anything that indicates Marines no longer guard embassies. Do you have a link on that?
Also… I’ve seen speculation — but ONLY speculation — that there were a few Marines at the consulate.
This is a confusing situation…
I wish Bart’s comments were true about religion and politics in America, but unfortunately it is becoming less so, especially among evangelicals. Philip Yancey, a prominent evangelical writer, has some very good thoughts about how we could at least tone down some of the enmity (though certainly not eliminate it), but I’m pretty sure Brad will not like some of what he has to say.
Herb, I’m having trouble getting that link to work.
It also appears that the deaths occurred after the mob chased the victims to a “safe house,” and from smoke inhalation from a grenade. Shooting rioters would only have created a far worse situation and might not have saved the victims.
Well, it would have given the Marines something to do, something that they’re good at…
Sorry.
What I MEANT to say was… We aren’t even certain there were Marines there, any more than we’re certain of the sequence of events, or to what extent the protest and the attack were simultaneous or intertwined (did the attackers come from within the body of protesters, or did they use the distraction to attack from another direction?).
Too little information so far.
But the idea that shooting makes everything better is pernicious around here.
Can you repost that link, Herb. I can’t get it to work. Thanks.
OK, this at least seems definite: Politico reported 16 hours ago (I missed it) that there were NO Marines at the consulate.
The Marines who have been sent there will no doubt do a good job of securing our diplomatic mission from further attack (which is, of course, a bit like closing the barn door after the horses have been assassinated).
I wonder to what extent they are part of promising hunting-down of the attackers. That might fall to other forces.
“The middle east is a large swath of territory of varying degress of stability, but I would guess from your statement, Bart, that you never befriended any local residents and never attended prayers at a mosque with them? Give it a try sometime; it’s a worthwhile experience to explore religions other than our own from a personal, firsthand perspective.”…Mark
On the contrary Mark. I did befriend many Muslims and did take the time to visit mosques during the call to prayer with them. Unlike so many who work(ed) in other countries, when given the opportunity to learn and experience what their life is like and not isolate myself inside a compound, I travelled the region at every opportunity.
It was a genuine opportunity and experience to watch ancient shipbuilding techniques when walking on the waterfront as craftsmen built the more common vessel at the time, the dhow. It was also a great opportunity to visit the local souk that had been in existence for centuries, built from sticks, stones, and coral from the local waters. It was an opportunity to observe some other ancient customs, the female pearl divers off the coast who could dive to depths where the best pearls were to be found.
I sat in the majlis of the oil minister of the emirates and was fortunate enough to be invited to visit with him personally. I was invited to travel to his private home close to the Oman border in the desert where he was trying to cultivate crops using our technology. Driving through the desert holding conversations with his secretary and discussing the differences between us was enlightening and educational.
It was also a privilege to be friends with Hindus and people of other religions from various parts of India and Pakistan who were working in the ME. If you know your religious history, India has varieties of religions numbering in the hundreds. We ate together, talked about our differences and what we had in common, we discussed the caste system that still exists in India and the difficulties the time when Pakistan broke off from India and the anguish and pain of families and friends broken apart by religious fervor and extremism. We discussed the impact of the British and what they left behind and how their influence was so ingrained that it still had an impact on India and the ME. (Ever tried riding through the desert in the middle of the night with a local driver who had no concept of speed limits and hit a damn traffic circle in the middle of nowhere?)
Our project had people from several nations and I made it a point to spend time with as many as I could and to make friends with anyone who would return a gesture of friendship.
I also learned from personal experience just how hostile some elements are toward the United States. One book shop in particular in Sharjah, the emirate adjoining Dubai, was approximately 40′ x 40′. With the exception of a few shelves, most of the publications were violently anti-American and there was not a shortage of buyers.
When Egypt and Israel met and reached the Camp David Accord, the ME exploded and anything with the word or reference to Egypt was immediately banned. Egyptian visitors left in droves. When a German publication printed photos of the stoning of a Saudi princess and her commoner lover, Germans were kicked out of the country for a period of 3 months. I sat beside a German expatriot on a flight who was sent out of the country, escorted to the airport by armed guards.
So, to answer your obvious attempt to discount my genuine observations that were not reached by reading about customs but finding out about them first person, I stand by what I posted.
I highly recommend the “Room for Debate” in today’s NYT…a lot of interesting points being made…the overall gist is that relations with the Middle East are actually going to become MORE complicated, not less, with some of these transitions to democracies, as some of these governments are going to have to find a way to balance relations with the US with at least giving lip-service towards some of the more radical Islamist elements within their societies. But none of that should make us wish for a return to Mubarak or worse, Qaddafi days. The road ahead is incredibly bumpy and there will be, sadly, other episodes like this along the way. But it is the right road, and Ambassador Stevens exemplified that path, and embodied some of those best and highest American ideals, the ones that value peace and freedom and assisting (but not forcing) the people of a given country to realize their aspirations (not necessarily identical or equivalent in every case to our aspirations for them ).
Oh, absolutely. The world is much simpler with despots in charge, whether the despots are friendly or hostile to our interests. One generally knows to some extent where one stands with them.
The world is MUCH less certain, and volatile, with emerging democracies.
With the Cold War, we also knew where we stood. We just had to keep an army or two in Germany, keep the missile subs deployed where the Russians couldn’t find them, keep the SAC crews trained up to snuff, and the world was RELATIVELY secure. Just the odd proxy war to fight here and there.
The collapse of the Soviet Union made the world much less certain, and potentially more dangerous in surprising ways. That is why, while others spoke of “peace dividends” and the like, I’ve seen the post-1991 world as one in which we need to step up certain activities and assets.
It’s a world in which we have far less need of a huge Army with its tank divisions. But it’s a world in which we DO need a large Navy and active Marine Corps, trained to meet current and future situations that may arise. They give us great flexibility to respond — whether to project power aggressively or get Americans out of harm’s way in a deteriorating situation.
It’s a little disturbing to me that when we need to send the Navy toward Libya, all we can whistle up is a couple of destroyers. We were able to do the equivalent of THAT in Thomas Jefferson’s day, and he didn’t even believe in HAVING a Navy.
My parents were going through closets recently, and I saw a remembrance booklet, sort of like a school yearbook, that was put together for the crew of the USS Noa, on which my Dad served as a lieutenant, for the crew to remember a cruise through the Med, down through the Suez and into the Arabian Sea. It came across (as it would, in such a publication) as a pleasure cruise. I’m sure there was more to the mission than that, but it appeared that a lot of the point was showing the flag, as we did constantly in the Med in those days. Nowadays, there is SO much greater need to be able to react quickly in those parts of the world — from North Africa to the Balkans through the region around Israel, to the pirate waters off Somalia, to Iraq and Iran and Pakistan — and yet we don’t have nearly the pieces to move about that we had then.
Some of my friends here are preparing to protest at my willingness to go to war, but I’m not talking about war. I’m talking about situations like this one. I’m also thinking that sometimes the proximity of a carrier group can have a calming effect, introducing stability to a situation that lacks it.
But the assets we’ve needed since 1991 go so far beyond military materiel and uniformed personnel. We should have greatly expanded the CIA at that time, because a world with more variables greatly increases the need for humint, from all sorts of places we might not have cared about previously.
Beyond that, we should have increased the State Department and every other agency of government that deals with other countries. We needed to develop all kinds of new relationships to be able to coexist peacefully in a world that would be more, not less, hospitable to our interests and values.
One thing we DID do, and still fight over (have we approved that Columbia Free Trade Agreement YET? Yes! Finally, on May 15), was to liberalize trade, increasing the chances of spreading affluence, and all the civilizing effects that tend to go along with it.
The point is that we need to constructively engage and better understand the whole world, through thousands and millions of relationships, across the globe. And be ready to respond effectively if things go wrong.
Those are the kinds of things we need to do in a world that is MORE, not LESS, complicated than it used to be.
The link is:
http://www.philipyancey.com/q-and-a-topics/politics
Maybe copy and paste will work?
Thanks for the link, Herb. I absolutely agree with Mr. Yancey. I tend to think that John Crosson’s take on Jesus’ message is right.
Whereas for me, in a quick skim of the piece (sorry, I don’t have time to read it through carefully at the moment), I hardly saw a paragraph that did not contain a statement, or at least a way of saying it, which which I did not deeply disagree.
My gestalten impression was of a very naive and simplistic point of view, although one that resides in a sincere heart.
Sorry, Herb.
Nothing to apologize about, Brad. I’m not surprised you didn’t agree with it, but thanks for taking the time to peruse it.
Of course it’s a naive point of view. That’s why Jesus got crucified.
Jesus was not naive. He understood exactly what he was doing.
“But the idea that shooting makes everything better is pernicious around here.”
Would be more effective than Obama going on the record as apologizing to the leaders of the country.
Even NBC is starting to question why Obama isn’t doing anything about this beyond sending an apology.
How about we borrow billions more from China, then turn around and hand it out to the Middle East countries that hate us.
There used to be a time when countries around the world feared and respected the US. At last count there are 20 US Embassies under attack tonight. Close the embassies, pull out people out and stop sending these countries money.
“The Marines who have been sent there will no doubt do a good job of securing our diplomatic mission from further attack”
Are they going to actually issue them ammunition this time?
Obama might want to at least attempt to attend his intel briefings… at least once in a while. He’s missed more than he’s attended. Maybe he can get them to hold them on a golf course somewhere.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matt-vespa/2012/09/14/president-obama-skips-intel-briefing-one-day-after-embassy-attacks-media
Wall Street Journal:
Gun Sales Hinge on Obama Re-Election
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444433504577651393759726660.html?mod=WSJ_hppMIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond
Steven, I’d still like to see some quotes or links regarding these “apologies” you keep mentioning.
Another thing… Regarding this “no ammunition” meme making the rounds of right-wing outlets. Unfortunately, it’s only being refuted by LEFT-wing sources, such as Mother Jones.
My ability to search effectively is hampered by the fact that I’m away from my computer, using my phone. Has anyone seen this addressed at ALL by the MSM? Surely it would have occurred to an editor to step in and settle this he-said she-said between the extremists…
@ Herb – Thanks for sharing the Philip Yancy link. His statements – “Sometimes I feel like a liberal among conservatives and sometimes like a conservative among liberals. I have conservative theology—I believe the Bible—but that leads me to ‘progressive’ opinions about politics, because the Bible has much to say about justice and helping the poor.” – really spoke to me. There are numerous places in the OT & NT where one sees justice and concern for the poor linked, particulary when it speak of the king’s responsibilities. Indeed, destruction came to kingdoms when deceipt, fraud, and injustice were rampant and only lip-service was paid to the honor of God. Psalm 72:1-4 is pretty clear what the king’s duty is to the people.
“My gestalten impression was of a very naive and simplistic point of view…”
The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary so that the necessary may speak. – Hans Hofmann
You’re welcome, Pat. If you’ve never read Yancey, you might want to have a look at some of his works, such as The Jesus I Never Knew, What’s So Amazing About Grace, and Where Is God When it Hurts?. I’ve had his Rumors of Another World sitting on my shelf for a long time, but haven’t been able to get to it. Have to stop watching football on Saturdays, a problem Brad doesn’t have.
I never can figure out how American Christians seem to do away so easily with texts like Isaiah 5:8, based on Leviticus 25, which suggest pretty clearly that an unbalanced accumulation of wealth is evil as far as God is concerned.
But the part I like the best in Yancey’s answers was how American Christians living abroad have an entirely different perception of our foreign policy than those sitting at home here in their arm chairs watching their favorite news channels. Indeed.
Oops, not ‘American Christians living abroad,’ but ‘Christians in general living abroad.’
I’m a different person, with a different perspective, for having lived abroad as a child. It was only two-and-a-half years, but it was longer than I lived in any other place growing up.
But my perspective is not Yancey’s.
It’s not anyone’s, really. I had a lot of influences, a lot of different perspectives, acting on me growing up. And I’m pretty sure that someone who experienced those same places alongside me (my brother would come closest to that, but since he is six years younger, his experiences of those places was vastly different), would still have a very different view of the world as a result.
But just to note, neither is your perspective that of the average Bible-belt evangelical who is supposed to be familiar with Scripture. Well, being a Catholic, I suppose you don’t have to struggle with the label.
Herb, I will have to pick up some of Yancey, now. I don’t know why I haven’t already. My “abroad” perspective is quite vicarious. Sometimes I think I understand until someone of another race or culture expresses a deep feeling and then I realize I hadn’t even thought about what is behind that feeling. I rely more and more on Love covering for my clumsiness.
Pat, just re-read my last comment and realized it sounds a bit disparaging of people here at home. It’s not location, but attitude, and I really appreciate yours. We have so many opportunities today to get close to people of other cultures, but so often we don’t, myself included. It isn’t always an enriching experience–sometimes downright frustrating. But then relationships are like that anyway.
I think the main thing I’ve tried to remember is not to assume I know how other people think, but to ask them and find out. And with the world being so mobile today, it’s more possible than ever before.