Celeste Headlee of “The Takeaway” reTweeted the above photo from tonight’s debate with the comment, “Sums it all up.” Here are my Tweets from the debate. All are by me, except where you see another Twitter handle:
- Ryan’s fighting his corner, but I can’t shake the impression that he looks and sounds like such a kid next to Biden. Like student gov’t…
- Warren Bolton @BoltonWarren Ryan speaks of Romney’s personal experiences: Biden counters with his own. The difference in having lived longer.
- Paul Begala @PaulBegala Biden is killing Ryan on Medicare and Social Security. Ryan is arguing ideology, Biden arguing facts.
- Gosh, I’d like to see these guys debate like grownups. For a change…
- If this were kindergarten, they’d both be doing timeout in separate corners by now…
- Levi Henry @levihenry I never would have thought that Joe Biden’s debating ability would be what gave @BarackObama another term. That could be the case tonight.
- Biden channeled Billy Ray Valentine re Afghanistan: I been all over that place, baby…
As you see, I didn’t have nearly as much to say as I usually do during these things. Guess I wasn’t very inspired. I was interested at first, and impressed at how well Biden was doing in his mission to make up for Obama’s lackluster performance. But eventually I got fed up with the behavior, on the parts of both men, that no elementary school teacher would allow in her classroom. Your thoughts?
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Oh, as for the simple take on it: Biden won. But both he and Ryan were hard to watch at times.
CNN and MSNBC are commenting, “the moderator did a masterful job”.
If I had to say anything, I’d say it was a draw at best. But Biden reminded the country that he’s a loose cannon who can’t bite his tongue when others are speaking. Ryan did a good job at showing his maturing of constantly being talked over during his responses.
In the real world, a vice-presidential debate has yet to have any play in the election.
I’d call it a draw. Both were engaged, each had his own version of the truth. Stylistically, I got tired of Joe’s smirks.
I think Ryan’s closing was better. If you want more of the same, vote Obama. If you want different ideas, vote Romney. It will be a closer election than last time simply because the recovery has not happened fast enough and plenty of people aren’t convinced that Obamacare is the answer.
Watched it in Cincy among a bipartisan group, so we stayed in respectful silence. My brief thoughts:
1) I’ve mocked Ryan’s being touted as an “intellectual” in the profoundly anti-intellectual GOP, but I gotta say that he’s Richard Feynman compared to Sarah Palin. Made me appalled all over again at McCain’s ridiculous choice.
2) I thought it was a pretty good debate and thought Ryan acquitted himself pretty well for the most part, but that he was surprised a little bit by the old guy’s tenacity.
3) Rather than Begala’s “ideology vs. facts” comparison, for me while I felt something similar, I experienced it more as Ryan arguing slogans and a slick sales job, while Biden seemed to speak more from the heart. This was especially true in the closing statements. Biden also killed by looking into the camera early and often, which Ryan only finally did late in the debate.
4) A slam-dunk on foreign policy for Biden.
5) Martha Raddatz did a good job.
I learned on another forum, “my friend” is a Congressional politically correct label, because the only other M F label could get you in trouble.
My favorite comment by somebody was that it was like a debate between the principal and the class president.
Biden’s boorish behavior is typical of the kind of incivil and disrepectful debate on serious issues that plagues this countries political discussions.
By contrast Ryan was the adult in the coversation offering ideas and solutions not smirks, laughs and derision.
Shame on Joe Biden. What a boob!
It is a challenge to take Ryan seriously when he makes arguments that are 180 degrees from what he and his running mate believed previously. It amazes me that America – conservatives and liberals and moderates – aren’t fed up with candidates who change their minds so quickly and act as if they never believed what they previously held as truth. One good debate performance by Mitt Romney in which he steadfastly clung to his new set of beliefs and he goes up several points in the polls? I think uncommitted voters were just waiting to see him not look like a fool for once.
Style – Biden
Content – Biden
Believability – Biden
Hair – Ryan
Amen for the timeout corner.
Don’t agree with you Brad. Biden didn’t win, neither did Ryan. Neither side gained or lost ground.
To put it in perspective, the debate looked like a debate that would take place between you and bud. One one side, respect, calm, and reason. On the other side, disrespect, smirking, and reason. No need to identify which one is you and which one would be bud.
Biden had a golden opportunity to regain some of the momentum the Obama campaign has lost but didn’t because he was being who he is, Biden.
If anything comes out of the debate that could be harmful to Obama was the continued defense of the lack of security and denial that the Benghazi attack was a terrorist attack for several days when it was known the video was not the reason.
The next debate between Obama and Romney will probably be the deciding one. The VP debate, not a game changer.
Brad, I agree. These things have deteriorated into slug fests. That was basically what we saw during the primary debates. However, this is what the voters have inspired. Obama tried to be polite and argue about governing philosophy and where did that get him? A 5 point drop in the polls. So Biden knew another polite performance would likely lose the election he did what he had to do and called Ryan out for all his mendacity. It wasn’t pretty but it was necessary.
Brad – I respectfully disagree and I give the night to Ryan. Biden came across as bullying, condescending, interrupting, and smirking. He played fast and loose, or perhaps lied about the Bengazi incident. I thought he was disgraceful with his expressions including “Malarkey” and “That’s a bunch of stuff!”
I fully admit that I am a biased observer, but it looks like viewers and pundits generally agree that Ryan won. It wasn’t nearly as lopsided as Romney’s historic win over Obama in the first presidential debate, though.
Someone with too much time on his hands wrote:
“I crunched the numbers again…..
In the VP debate, Biden interrupted Ryan 82 times. The moderator interrupted Ryan 34 times, for a total of 116 times in a 90 minute debate.
Now, let’s break that down further:
Biden spoke for 41:50 minutes. Ryan spoke for 40.05 minutes.
This means that Ryan was interrupted by either Biden or the moderator EVERY 20.73 SECONDS.
Try making ANY POINT under such assault. “
SD II BFD my friend.
Burl, that’s a good analogy. I was trying to say something similar in my first Tweet.
No matter what Ryan said, his face, and to some extent his voice, kept him from having any gravitas.
Some people just come across as types. Biden comes across as the old Irish pol. Sarah Palin struck me and others as what one late-night comedian called the Naughty Librarian. Ryan is the student debater.
Ryan continues to trot out this complete and utter nonsense that you can 1. Cut the marginal tax rates by 20% (an enormous windful for the wealthy); 2. Increase military spending; 3. Eliminate the estate tax; 4. Cut (or eliminate) taxes on dividends and captital gains and 5. Paying for all this by eliminating tax loopholes and 6. NOT MENTIONING on which loopholes they will cut. It’s frustrating to watch this charade and Biden wouldn’t stand for it. The moderator was merely asking whether Ryan would specify which loopholes he would cut. It’s a yes or no question that HE WOULD NOT ANSWER. I applaud the moderator for not letting him get away with his spin game. I applaud Biden for challenging him. Ryan needs to answer the damn question without going into spin mode. It’s maddening to watch these guys obfuscate at every opportunity. It’s a shameful and disengeous tactic that does not serve the America people and all you folks who claim to be fiscally conservative should be extremely afraid of what Romney Romney/Ryan WON’T tell you. It certainly scares the begebers out of me.
Maybe to some of you younger folks Ryan doesn’t seem so callow.
No matter what Ryan said, his face, and to some extent his voice, kept him from having any gravitas.
-Brad
Style over substance in other words.
Frankly I dodn’t even bother to score these events on delivery points any more. I thought Romney had a terrible body language during the first debate (he was nervous looking and had that fake-looking grin). Since the consensous was Romney won that battle I give up.
Instead I focused strictly on what they said. And Ryan said some painfully disturbing things. Or he didn’t say anything at all and merely spun.
I thought he was disgraceful with his expressions including “Malarkey” and “That’s a bunch of stuff!”
-Silence
Silence I might have agreed with that assessment at one time but frankly the GOP ticket has become such at of work at spinning truth and simply not being specific on very major matters of importantance so that now I say ABOUT TIME. The little jerk was spinning and weazeling the whole time. Obama got burned for not calling out Romney on the lies. Ryan’s entire debate was to simply NOT answer any question but rather to repeat his nonsensical stump speech.
There was one particularly telling moment during the debate concerning the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. Ryan agreed with Biden about the withdrawal in 2014 then tried to suggest Romney would keep the option open to not withdraw. Huh. That makes no sense. Ryan did seem clueless on that issue.
Any person who has pics taken of himself (or herself) pumping iron while wearing a baseball cap backwards does not deserve to be vice president. or president. or congressman/senator.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/10/11/introducing-the-inevitable-twitter-account-dedicated-to-paul-ryans-bicep/
Whatever political environment we have right now was not created by younger people. Maybe instead of term limits, we just need an age limit. Of Harry Reid (72), Nancy Pelosi (72), John Boehner (63) and Mitch McConnell (70) , Boehner is the youngster of the group.
Why is it that we expect regular adults to retire at 65 but think our politicians somehow are more effective after they hit that age?
You don’t get smarter as you get older. Experience doesn’t translate into expertise if you aren’t open to change.
@Phillip — I also thought that Ryan really reminded me of just how poor a choice Sarah Palin was.
“Rose says: October 12, 2012 at 10:24 am
Any person who has pics taken of himself (or herself) pumping iron while wearing a baseball cap backwards does not deserve to be vice president. or president. or congressman/senator.”
Are you serious? Really? And you make this observation as a legitimate point to evaluate his qualifications? Well, how do you feel about Biden’s hair implants? Or, his obvious facelift. Is his vanity any less egegious than your perception of Ryan’s?
Lord help us if this is what counts as a determining factor in selecting a candidate.
@bud – Did you happen to notice that for a man with 5 draft deferments, Bidden sure had a lot of war stories to talk about.
@Rose – I thought the same thing when I saw Obama riding a girls bike and wearing a helmet that looked like it was meant for an 8 year old.
http://cdn.stripersonline.com/3/37/512x467px-LL-3794bf3c_Obama-riding-a-bike1.jpeg
Maybe you prefer the Super Fly impression
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s218/celebitchy/obamacigarette.jpg
Again, sorry for the spelling mistake. Should be “egregious”.
Brad, really??? You delete some of the stuff I say but allow this? Not that I really give a Biden about My Friend J.
“SD II BFD my friend”
@Rose – Is this more to your liking of how you picture a Vice President?
http://images.politico.com/global/2012/09/biden_bikers_605_ap.jpg
I’m gonna surprise everyone and agree with Bart. I thought the Ryan pictures showed him is a regular sort of guy. Liberals should simply smile at that and move on without comment.
OK, I’ll go ahead and speak for the lowest common denominator.
I half expected Biden to call him a boy. It was the makeup (I hope) and not the content. Ryan with his big eyes and rosy cheeks looked like a cross between a Kewpie doll and a 15 year old girl in love. It was distracting. As he went on about Libya I thought he would begin making smoochy noises and promise us what would happen behind the bleachers once his retainer is taken out.
@Tim O’Keefe “Hair – Ryan”
Yep. Between young Captain Murphy and Riff Raff I don’t see a winner. http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/if-joe-biden-and-paul-ryan-switched-hair.jpeg
Ryan has been oversold as a genius with every fact and figure in his head. It wouldn’t have been a problem except the moderator came to the table expecting that one would come dressed as a policy wizard and the other would show up as Uncle Buck and Biden came to the table prepared for that. Showing up as your usual character works for Meet the Press, but this was a national debate and Ryan was hit by a train of his own making. Taking that into account, Ryan’s performance was pretty good, but he feels a bit young (is it natural to never feel comfortable with politicians who are in your own age group?). Deep down, that may be the real sticking point. The idea of a candidate who can possibly remember a younger sibling watching Duck Tales frightens me on an existential level.
Not that I’m entirely unsympathetic to the guy. I found myself unconsciously nodding to his comments on Medicare and Social Security. Then again we both come from a generation who were trained from day one to believe that there would be nothing for us when we are old, but are happy to see our parent’s generation and especially those still living in our grand parent’s generation get what society promised them. No use in pounding our fists over deductions, when Mamaw can get $3 heart pills, we just pray that it lasts for them. For ours it would eventually be left up to the roulette wheel of the free market, some would live and some aren’t going to get cancer treatment because it is their own fault for drinking, eating, smoking, etc too much. We are just miffed that we can’t have suicide booths, because no one wants a slow death to cancer (actually, I’m kind of serious on that one, why force us to be a drain on the system, we didn’t ask for that?).
Jesse, as for this: “we both come from a generation who were trained from day one to believe that there would be nothing for us when we are old”
My generation came up being told the same thing. That didn’t prepare me for being thrown out of my profession at the start of my peak earning years, but then I never expected all that much of retirement.
Despite all the gloom and doom, the truth is that it’s easy to fix Social Security so that you can rely upon it, too: Eliminate the payroll tax cap, and very slightly increase retirement age so that it’s somewhat more in line with life expectancy, and you’ve got your Social Security.
Medicare’s a tougher nut to crack.
@Jesse – “Ryan with his big eyes and rosy cheeks looked like a cross between a Kewpie doll and a 15 year old girl in love. It was distracting.”
Good thing, for you, that Biden’s 82 interruptions broke up the starry eyed distraction.
Bart and SDII
Get a sense of humor.
And yes, those other photos make me cringe, too, though I hadn’t seen them til now.
They don’t change the fact that Ryan looks like a complete dumbass in that shot and he should fire whichever staff member thought it was a good idea.
Well, Brad, you weren’t paying very close attention (surprise!) if you were not prepared to be thrown out of your profession in your mid-fifties. It’s been happening to a lot of people like us since at least the early nineties. Private equity like Bain Capital and similar efficient market types created a bottom-line-focused world that doesn’t value experience or loyalty. It’s “What have you done for me lately, my friend?”
@ rose –
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/bill-clinton-al-gore-shorts-90s_n_1033691.html
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/infocus/fitness/
http://www.pgatour.com/2009/tournaments/r002/01/21/live_report_bobhope/index.html
Kathryn, “What have you done for me lately?” doesn’t really work in a profession where you do it again from scratch every day.
More like, “I don’t care what you do; I can’t afford you.” That would fit better.
Anyway, you misunderstood my point.
What I was saying was that my plan for dealing with the inadequacies/uncertainties of our public retirement structure was my 401k that I planned to keep contributing heavily to for another 10 years. But that didn’t work out.
But like I said, I never expected to be well off in retirement. It would have been so unlike the rest of my life. Money and I have never been friends.
@Rose – “They don’t change the fact that Ryan looks like a complete dumbass in that shot and he should fire whichever staff member thought it was a good idea.”
So everyone who goes to a fitness center or exercises looks like a “dumbass”. I guess it beats looking like an obese couch potato.
Actually if you read comments on the photo, most people have said it makes him look like an average guy and not an alcohol swilling congressman. Which brings to mind, I heard Biden wasn’t drinking the water at the debate because it was just a glass of mixer.
@Kathryn – “Private equity like Bain Capital and similar efficient market types created a bottom-line-focused world that doesn’t value experience or loyalty.”
Is this the beginning of “It’s Romney’s fault”?
Ryan did not impress.
Biden was Biden and didn’t need to; Ryan, however, was the one who needed to hold his ground and stop the interruptions. But he couldn’t. He is all wonk and no guile.
Not that it matters though.
Indeed. Conventional “wisdom” was that Biden needed to make up for his boss’ failure. But as soon as the debate was over, and Biden had thoroughly roughed up the young weight-lifter, the conventional “wisdom” became, “But it doesn’t matter. No one votes for the running mate. So Obama still has to win the next debate.”
And I think that is closer to real wisdom than the other was. I reTweeted that guy who said “I never would have thought that Joe Biden’s debating ability would be what gave @BarackObama another term. That could be the case tonight.” I thought it was an interesting assertion. But I don’t think it was right.
I, for one, have never voted on the basis of the running mate. Many of my Democratic friends still can’t wrap their heads around my supporting McCain when he had Palin on his ticket. I don’t know why it’s so complicated. I’ve NEVER gone by the running mate. If I believe Candidate A would be a better president than Candidate B, I’m not going to change that assessment, even when I like Candidate B’s running mate MUCH more (which was the case in 2008). Not even when, as was the case that time, I like Candidate B almost as much as Candidate A.
That is to say, I never have. Perhaps there will be time when that happens, but it hasn’t happened yet.
Brad – 401(k)’s can work very well for people, IF (and this is a big if) people contribute at a high enough rate.
Figure that in a traditional pension plan you’d make some level of contribution and so would your employer. You basically need to do both sides by yourself in a 401(k) plus capture the employer match if they offer one.
For example the state of SC now requires employees to contribute 7% of their pay and the employer contributes another 15% of the employees pay. That’s a total of 23% of an employees pay going into the system. That’s hefty.
People who contribute 4-5% or whatever to get their 4% employer match aren’t living in reality if they think that they’ll have enough to retire on.
Not saying that’s what you did, Brad, just saying that 401(k)’s can work, given a high enough savings rate and enough time. The key is to start hitting it hard early, not in the home stretch.
Brad, any thoughts on the Charleston Post & Courier/Bobby Harrell scandal?
Silence, I was contributing 10 percent. The paper contributed a 50 percent match up to 6 percent. So I was maxing out on that and kicking in another 4 percent.
So you’re saying the state does it the other way around, contributing DOUBLE the employee match? I didn’t realize that. I would think the Policy Council would be all over that. Perhaps they have been, and I missed it. That’s WAY generous.
On the other thing… I don’t really know anything about it. I know it has something to do with his reimbursing himself from campaign funds.
The stories I’ve tried to read about it are mushy, a lot of he-said she-said.
I have an opinion on his leadership PAC. I think all such PACs are highly problematic. But this is a separate issue…
“Ryan with his big eyes and rosy cheeks looked like a cross between a Kewpie doll and a 15 year old girl in love. It was distracting. As he went on about Libya I thought he would begin making smoochy noises and promise us what would happen behind the bleachers once his retainer is taken out.”…Jesse S.
So, if I were to describe Biden as looking like an old drunk, probably smelling of booze and stale farts while grinning like a jackass eating in a briar patch, belching bromidic responses from both orifices, being a distraction, would that description be acceptable as well? Not that that was my impression of Biden. 🙂
And Rose, if your comments had been presented as humor, no response would have been forthcoming. However, you seemed to be very serious and therefore, the appropriate response was posted.
For example the state of SC now requires employees to contribute 7% of their pay and the employer contributes another 15% of the employees pay.
-Silence
It will go up to 8% in a couple of years. Not sure where you’re getting the 15% state match. I’ve never seen that figure anywhere. But that could be accurate. What is important to state workers is the final payout. That equals roughly 55% of your latest paycheck for someone who works 30 years and has at least 45 days of unused vacation leave and 90 of sick leave. (That varies from person to person for a variety of reasons).
State workers do have the option to participate in 401ks also but there is no matching state money.
I, for one, have never voted on the basis of the running mate.
-Brad
In this debate I don’t think that was what was important. Biden needed to make the case for his boss and his policies. Biden and Ryan probably won’t be factors in most voters decision the way Palin was in 2008. (I still find Brad’s rationalizing on the Palin pick fascinating).
The state of SC offers employees 2 retirement plans.
The traditional Retirement plan is a defined benefit plan that requires the employee to contribute 7% of gross, with the state kicking in a percentage member ‘s “earnable compensation”(whatever the hell that means)
the Optional Retirement Plan is a 401(a) plan according to the SCRS is a defined contribution plan, where in the Employee contributes 7% of Gross Pay, and the Employer contributes 5% of Gross Pay, to your account, with the remaining Retirement contribution going to the Retirement System.
If you have a 401(k) with the state and are in the SCRS, the State makes no contribution at all.
TV characters come to mind. Biden was Otis from the Andy Griffith Show; Ryan was Eddie Munster.
Bart, you forgot to say “my friend” in describing Biden.
Faux pas there.
Rose may have gone overboard in describing Ryan as maidenly. But he certainly came across as a callow youth, the sort of clever, hyper-earnest youngster who thinks an ability to memorize talking points and apply them relevantly is a reasonable substitute for wisdom. Or even better than…
And here I thought I was the only one thinking about the Munster kid. I didn’t want to say that because I didn’t want to seem to be making fun of his weird hair thing there, that little dark divot in his forehead. But gee, if we’re going to discuss Joe’s hairplugs…
Seems like a great candidate for a Beatlesque haircut. Just let it fall a little forward, and that will be covered up…
Partial list of politicians who let their hair fall enough in front to cover fully that distracting thing Ryan has: Jimmy Carter, Jack Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Jack Kemp, Dan Quayle…
“Bart, you forgot to say “my friend” in describing Biden.
Faux pas there.”…Brad
Sorry. “My Friend” Joe Biden is —read my earlier description. Notice I didn’t use BFD either?
It was a good debate overall. No matter who you think won, we saw the old guard and the new guard on display last night and it is a stark reminder of just how far we still have to go before we can have a genuine meeting of the minds and find a leader who truly can bring both sides to the table without the rancor and anger and rabid partisanship of the past 20 years.
I knew Biden reminded me of someone.
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/8/13/128946984446875214.jpg
Democrat posterboy Jack Kennedy’s plan to spur the economy. Sounds familiar.
Speaking of hair, if Biden and Ryan swapped hair.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A4-CmQRCQAAMvDq.jpg
White House defends Biden’s demeanor… “it was Ryan’s fault”.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/oct/12/white-house-defends-bidens-debate-demeanor/
Is Jay Carney the worst press secretary in the history of the presidency? He looks like he would fit better on the junior high reporting staff at WIS.
My friends at Lawyers, Guns & Money felt that Ryan may have been trying to shake up Biden by segueing from the GM bailout to Romney helping out a family that suffered in a car crash.
What came to my mind upon hearing Mitt and “car crash” in the same breath was the fact that Mitt was driving a Citroen in France while on his 1968 LDS mission, and one of his passengers died when Mitt collided with a Mercedes.
Doug.
“You don’t get smarter as you get older. Experience doesn’t translate into expertise if you aren’t open to change.” That reminds me of Robert Burn’s Ode “To a Louse” (1786).
“O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us
An foolish notion:
What airs in dress an gait wad lea’es us,
An ev’n devotion!”
Self objectivity?
SD II, That’s a ButterFinger Delight dessert that is served at a rural BBQ hut here in the Midlands. You must be from the Mid-West.
The debate struck me as being a lot like what Congressional debates were in the era of, say, Andrew Jackson, from what I’ve read.
@J
“To see oursels as ithers see us!”
The irony of your post as an anonymous person is not lost.
J, what are you talking about? ButterFinger Delight? Are we switching topics now?
“What came to my mind upon hearing Mitt and “car crash” in the same breath was the fact that Mitt was driving a Citroen in France while on his 1968 LDS mission, and one of his passengers died when Mitt collided with a Mercedes.”….Tom Stickler
It would be total speculation to suspect were you trying to equate Romney with being the cause of the death of a passenger in the vehicle he was driving, right? Since it is the proper thing to give one the benefit of the doubt, I am sure your oversight of the circumstances surrounding the accident were inadvertly omitted.
Omitting pertinent information that could lead one to a misinterpretation of a tragedy and reach the wrong conclusion can happen to anyone.
From Bloomberg, Heather Smith, August 22, 2012
“The 21-year-old was driving mission leaders to Bordeaux in June, 1968, when a car driven by a Catholic priest who’d been drinking crossed into their lane and smashed head-on into their Citroen DS. The accident killed the Mormon mission president’s wife, who had been seated in the front between her husband and Romney. She was 57.”
Kind of ironic that while Mitt was dodging the draft and service in Vietnam he would up in a serious car crash.
@bud – Are you making light that Romney was involved in an automobile accident that involved a drunk driver hitting him and killing his passenger? It’s almost as if you wish he had been at fault.
If you want to joke about “draft dodging”, let’s hear something about how Biden received 5 draft deferments.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/1/bidens-draft-deferments-equal-cheneys-during-vietn/
Yeah… I don’t see how how a Mormon doing the missionary thing is “draft-dodging.” It’s something Mormons do. Something they’re OBLIGATED to do, right?
bud says: October 15, 2012 at 10:09 am
“Kind of ironic that while Mitt was dodging the draft and service in Vietnam he would up in a serious car crash.”
Yeah, sorta ironic isn’t it? Bill Clinton ACUTALLY did dodge the draft by pulling every string he could with the politically influential people he worked with in Washington prior to registering for the draft and subsequently escaping to Europe for the sole purpose of avoiding military service but that was forgivable since he is a liberal Democrat.
On December 3, 1969, Clinton wrote a letter to Lt. Colonel Eugene Holmes. The following are the opening words in the first sentence in the second paragraph of the letter.
“First, I want to thank you, not only for saving me from the draft,…..”
The timeline and genesis of the long and winding road Clinton used to avoid the draft is too lengthy to include but it is easy to find it if you care to look. However, his status as a Rhodes Scholar granted him special privilege as acknowledged by the fact that several Rhodes Scholars were granted immunity from the draft. He used his time at Oxford to help organize protests against the Vietnam war.
Barack Obama was raised outside the continental United States during his formative years. He did not have a personal connection with America except through his mother and grandparents. He lived his life in Indonesia or Hawaii until he entered Occidental in California. By that time, he was 18 and lucky for Obama, the draft had been abolished. He never had to serve in the military and never had to worry about being drafted.
Mitt Romney received several deferments as did thousands of students. His 2 year mission was a legal deferment as was his deferments as a college student and as a husband and father. Clinton used his political and academic connections to avoid the draft.
So, spare me the draft dodging crap and hyperbole about “irony” or perhaps “karma” that resulted in the death of an innocent passenger in a car hit by a drunken priest.
Sorry, should be “as were” not “as was”.
Hawaii isn’t America? And defering as a college student is different than deferring through academic connections?
This election, like all before, has officially entered the silly season – on both sides.
Well, technically, geographically, it isn’t America. It’s not part of, or near, the American continents. But it’s one of the 50 United STATES of America…
I thought there were 56 states, according to Obama.
He did NOT say that. He said there were 57 states. Can’t you get anything right?
Mark Stewart says: October 15, 2012 at 12:35 pm
Hawaii isn’t America? And defering as a college student is different than deferring through academic connections?”
What the hell? Did I say Hawaii wasn’t part of America Mark? Please, did I? I wrote, please read carefully, “raised outside the continental United States”. The last time I checked, we have 2 states not part of the continental United States; Alaska and Hawaii.
As for the deferment reference, won’t bother to reply.
The election entering the silly season. Cannot agree more after reading your “critique” of my comments.
That’s a bunch of malarky. It’s Irish. It’s a bunch of stuff.
Speaking of which, Silence, you should check out this recent post, about a New Yorker piece that has a little kindly fun with the way Joe talks…
Brad, do you have any idea what the unemployment rate is for former newspaper editors in Scranton, Pennsylvania?
Bart,
You insinuated that Obama wasn’t inculcated with a proper American background – until, what, he enrolled at Yale?
And you also stated that Bill Clinton’s Rhodes Scholarship wasn’t an appropriate academic draft deferment. I don’t like Clinton, but not because he followed a pretty typical path of looking to avoid the Vietnam war; even though his academic excellence brought him to Oxford.
Don’t play fast and loose if you can’t take the criticism. And please pocket your righteous indignation.
OK, guys… y’all are both, Mark and Bart, highly valued contributors to this blog… how about standing down and taking a moment to chill on this one?
Frankly, I can see merit in what both of y’all are saying. Barack Obama had a unique upbringing among American presidents, and knew little of mainland life until his college years. And Hawaii IS the most different state among all the ones I’ve been in, something I touched on in my “Barack Like Me” column back in 2008. But that doesn’t make him not an American, which is what Mark’s getting at.
I just hate to see bad feelings arise. So basically, I’m not approving any more comments on this post that are in the vein of the last few. I don’t want to discourage either one of y’all, because you ARE valued. I just want everybody to cool off.
Brad,
You may not post this but that is o.k. but I do intend to answer Mark’s reponse with clarity and no rancor.
First, my point was that he had no personal connection to the contiguous 48 states that comprise the mainland. Living most of your formative years in Indonesia and Hawaii, 2,500 miles from California, are not the same as living in California, Iowa, Illinois, South Carolina, or any of the other states. And Alaska was included which if I recall correctly was used against Sarah Palin by liberals and Democrats to point out the same – no real personal connection to mainland United States or America if you prefer.(not a fan of hers but the point is still valid)
As for Clinton’s draft deferments, it was pointed out that Clinton’s Rhodes Scholarship was one of the deferments that allowed him to avoid the draft, not once did I say it was not appropriate. In fact, the point was made that others had been granted deferments because they were Rhodes Scholars. It was a generally accepted fact that Rhodes Scholars were treated with a great deal of deference and preference when it involved draft status. The Rhodes Scholarship was included as part of the whole, not meant to be taken out of context as a single source.
I can take the criticism when it is based on inaccurate information or pure speculation on my part.
For the record, there are no bad feelings on my part toward Mark, after all, it is the political season and the Biden in all of us who participate will surface on occasion.
And to be the one to offer the olive branch, Mark, if my remarks offended you, I apologize.
It’s 10% Brad. 10%!
Also, I believe that missionary service is NOT required for young Mormon men. I’ve known several who didn’t do it (one because he enlisted in the Army). It is required for young men who hope to hold leadership positions in the LDS church.
Clintons draft dodging and Romneys are not the same. Clinton oppossed the war in Vietnam and believed no one should be sent there to fight and possibly die. Romney on the other hand was a big time pro-war hawk who used all the available deferments in order to get out of a war that he was willing to allow others to take his place. Therefore Clinton can be given a pass for his draft dodging but Romney must be branded a chickenhawk.