In response to the last post, Preston e-mailed me this fascinating video clip from the Fox affiliate in Los Angeles. It tells about how increasingly, gangbangers are using tactics (and in at least one case, a weapon) they picked up in the military.
Perhaps most riveting is the actual surveillance camera footage of a Marine/gang member using his rifle and professional tactical maneuvers to kill one cop and critically wound another in a matter of minutes, despite their own use of cover and returning fire.
It remains astounding to me that anyone could retain the petty, narrow mentality of a street gang member after joining the military — especially the Marine Corps, with the mystique it instills of duty, honor and fidelity to something so much larger than Bloods and Crips.
Yes, I’ve heard and read all about the psychological reasons for disaffected boys and young men to join gangs — the sense of belonging, an ethic (however twisted), something to fight for. But the military offers that in such greater, more rewarding portions. It’s a brotherhood of men, not boys, and would have to offer far greater reinforcement.
Anyway, I said that stuff before. But the video is something new, and worth checking out.
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The real question is why does this country tolerate gangbangers at all. I watched the video and all I saw was thug punks who get a sense of self esteem from being in their gang. When are we going to take the handcuffs off of the police in this nation? As for Fort Bragg, hopefully the base commander sees this. Time to purge the bangers out of the military or into the brig.
Andrew Sullivan has the skinny. This is part of the Rumsfeld / Cheney plan to fail in Iraq to prove that democracy was impossible so that they could move on quickly to bomb Iran too. Actively recruiting gang-bangers with enlistment bonuses is something that Sully doesn’t even know about: half the bombs targeting Iraqis is their work.
Whoa! Sully claims that he doesn’t really believe this. Er, why write it?
Bob McAlister wrote a good analysis of this as it pertains to the local level, and he should know. I’m not sure what Dave is advocating, but if it is just more of “lock ‘em up”, then it is basically the same approach that he advocates in the Middle East. It seems to me this is a typical simplistic solution, and we are in danger of skipping over the really hard work that needs to be done.
Herb, this is moving to Clemson day so I will be off the air. But we as a society are permitting the obscene music (hiphop), movies, television, et. al. that influences young people to worship the negatives in life. I think our media morality has something to do with why the Moslems hate Western societies so much, and Lee is right, if the Moslems ever do have their way, it will be those who promote this moral decay and homosexual lifestyles that will be first in line. Not much of a thought out comment, but times does not permit.
Herb, this is moving to Clemson day so I will be off the air.
Posted by: Dave | Aug 18, 2006 4:27:05 AM
Waitaminnit! You’re a college kid?!
we as a society are permitting the obscene music (hiphop), movies, television, et. al. that influences young people to worship the negatives in life.
I think this probably falls under freedom of speech as an issue. I think the real problem is the parents not parenting. If the family circle promotes acceptible values and beliefs, things would be lot diffenent. It’s the same in our schools. Example: The 5th grader, 2 years older than his fellow classmates (read: retained) cussing out my teacher sister all year with some of the most foul language thinkable. Even the principle was no help. This boy had noone in his family to correct his problem either even though his father was a minister and his mother a choir director. They were too busy saving souls instead of saving their child.
Parenting is just part of raising a child. The parents have to also stand up against the degradation of society outside the home.
One reason that fundamentalist Muslims hate America is the cultural sewerage spewed out of Hollywood and New York by people who call themselves “liberals”.
It’s not just “gang-banger” Marines who are ethically challenged… today’s news:
Marines May Have Excised Evidence on 24 Iraqi Deaths
By DAVID S. CLOUD
WASHINGTON, Aug. 17 — A high-level military investigation into the killings of 24 Iraqis in Haditha last November has uncovered instances in which American marines involved in the episode appear to have destroyed or withheld evidence, according to two Defense Department officials briefed on the case.
The investigation found that an official company logbook of the unit involved had been tampered with and that an incriminating video taken by an aerial drone the day of the killings was not given to investigators until Lt. Gen. Peter W. Chiarelli, the second-ranking commander in Iraq, intervened, the officials said.
Indeed, liberalism is what they hate — whether it’s the cultural libertarianism to which you refer, or liberal democracy, with its guarantees of basic rights.
In other words, they hate things treasured by both the left and the right, and until we realize in this country that we are all threatened and we’d better learn to act in unison and cut out the stupid political polarization, the Islamofascists are going to win.
And Dave, look again at the footage from that surveillance camera. That was no mere punk; that was a fighting machine. The skill he demonstrated in the way he moved relentlessly on those cops was a very scary thing. Most gang members hardly know which end of a gun to hold — that’s why most of their victims seem to be someone other than whomever they were shooting at.
But when you implant the mind of a gangbanger in the body of a highly trained light infantryman, you’ve got a serious problem.
And as you said, they get a sense of self-esteem from being in a gang. That’s what I don’t get. The Marines offer so much MORE self-esteem. Why doesn’t that cause them to grow beyond their punk ways? With most, it does. Plenty of former delinquents find purpose in the military. But with some, the physical training takes, but the mental part doesn’t.
I love the tactic of when all else fails, blame homosexuals. That angle is intellectually bankrupt. Whatever happend to basic parenting and personal responsibilty? There is no one to blame, but those involved. It is not the fault of Hollywood, rap music or homosexuality. It is the fault of the individual and their personal decisions.
I wonder which hiphop group Osama Bin Laden listens to? I’m sure he’s sitting in his cave right now, listening to “Ridin’ Durrrty”.
The issue of supposed cultural degradation is a problem of demand, not supply. The culture we have is the culture we want.
And then we have people who want to be the censors for the entire community… At Blythewood H.S. this summer, there was a big uproar over a book that was assigned for summer reading because, HORRORS, it had some curse words in it. It’s a story about a Vietnam vet working as a commercial diver in search of a submarine off the coast of New Jersey. What exactly do these parents think is going to happen if 15 year old Johnny sees the f-word in the context of recounting a story from a Vietnam battlefield? Do they think commercial fisherman sit around on the boats saying, “Excuse me, Chauncey, could you pass me a goshdarn fishing rod.” One woman took the time to list every page that had a curse word on it in a letter to the local paper. Some people need to get a grip on reality… censorship won’t change a thing.
Brad, I prefer the term “Islamic Imperialism” to the fascist thing. I think we should emphasize that it is not Muslims so much that are the problem, but Islam itself. You believe in the power of dialogue, and that is good, because it is needed here. I agree that there are a few radicals we must fight militarily, but there are many more hearts and minds that can be won in other ways.
But lest anyone think that I am one-sided after my defense of Hezbollah and the Palestinian cause, here a few links worth looking at:
Concerning British Muslims
Three British Muslims converted to Islam
Australia: Pastors Face Jail For Comparing Islam With Christianity
Not to digress, Doug, but most profanity, nudity and violence contained in art is not only inappropriate for the audience or necessary to the story, but put there by immature minds to shock and amuse immature minds.
There are tens of thousands of good books, 95% of which are not chosen for school assignments. It is not censorship. Books with gratuitous obscenity just make themselves inferior candidates for selection as literature.
The “melting pot” of the US isn’t cooking right now. Adding (fill in the blank)American to describe oneself doesn’t suggest a melting of cultures. Iraqi American, Italian American, African American, I find them all contrary to what we consider our “melting pot” society. Now add in not wanting to learn English and keeping to isolated ethnic groups or religious groups and the problem compounds.
It is odd that we seldom see Anglo Americans or Franco Americans identified in this way. Franco American which I guess is what I’d have been called makes me think of Chef Boyardee *yuck*
Irish-Americans, Anglo-Americans, Greek-Americans, Slovak-Americans and Italian-Americans may not have adopted the hyphenated identifier but they sure celebrate their heritage– be it religion, custom, food, or language.
If you’ve ever tasted chili before the ingredients have had a chance to “meld” then you’ll find fairly distinct flavors. The “melting pot” concept has never worked perfectly or smoothly, but as generations are born they become assimilated.
Helping Hispanic immirgrants integrate into the culture by printing bilingual forms or teaching kids bilingually isn’t going to re-make America into a richer version of Mexico.
Cap, now we know what is wrong with Dave. He is not only a college kid; he goes to Clemson. Actually, he must be taking one of his kids there. An unforgiveable crime.
“Indeed, liberalism is what they hate — whether it’s the cultural libertarianism to which you refer, or liberal democracy, with its guarantees of basic rights.”
No,what they hate is the decades of victimization by the US,the plundering of their resources.This victomhood is exaggerated to create terrorists,but extremist Muslim hatred of America has little to do with our liberal democracy or Hollywood decadence.
For them,9/11 was an act of retaliation.
By coincidence, in today’s mailbox was a copy of the latest Rolling Stone. There is an article called “Soundtrack to the War” about the music soldiers in Iraq listen to. I’m not familiar with all of these tunes, but the Top 10 includes:
“Bodies” by Drowning Pool
“Numb” by Linkin Park
“This is Now” by Hatebreed
“Highway to Hell” by AC/DC
“Chop Suey” by System of a Down
“Hit Em Up” by Tupac
“Ruff Ryders” by DMX
Seeing a pattern yet?
It also tells about how radio operators rig the intercom systems in the tanks to pipe music from iPods into the soldiers helmets during battle. I don’t think anyone over the age of 40 can claim to understand what being a soldier in 2006 is like.
Here’s one soldier’s view of a day in the life:
“To get psyched up to go into battle, I listened to punk and hardcore like Pantera and Metallica… Sometimes you’re up for, like, 48 hours or longer, doing patrols. You pop a bunch of ephedrine and drink a bunch of coffee and sit there and haul balls down the road listening to some crazy techno”
I’m sure that’s exactly what the recruiters are telling kids it will be like…
Cap, now we know what is wrong with Dave. He is not only a college kid; he goes to Clemson. Actually, he must be taking one of his kids there. An unforgiveable crime.
Posted by: Herb | Aug 18, 2006 9:53:18 AM
I wasn’t even going to broach the subject of Taters.
My point was that when I was that age I wanted to bomb the sheoal out of most of the people who disagreed with the US. Even a few years’ experience afterwards has given me previously unfound clarity where negotiations are concerned. Maturity, in other words…
If he was stating he was transporting his own kid, then I’m back to clueless concerning some of his more vitriolic posts. I guess it won’t matter in a few days as we’ll be expected to give our ages and SS#’s upon posting.
Will we have to go out to their offices and give fingerprints or will they send the cops over to our homes to get them?
Doug, I’m gonna guess you haven’t been in the military. I can tell that in “my” ancient war, we listened to stereos piped throughout or riverboats and also had reel to reels and played hours of taped radio station music from California. Most of our music was anti war and yet there we were blasting villages, people and water buffalo while listening to Hendrix and others. The music may have been different, but the practice was the same. We all march to a different drummer.
57 and never my SSN
VietVet, I wanted to take this chance to thank you for your service. I also appreciate your reminding us that our warriors are not all mindless Achilleans and that there are probably, if not more, just as many Odysseans in the mix.
You’ve not been given a totally fair shake by your country and yet you fought on and still support her. I can’t imagine a greater representative of honor, just as I can’t honestly fathom your sacrifices.
During a recent NYC trip, it was a short excursion between the site of the Two Towers and that of NYC’s Vietnam Memorial. We’re currently producing another generation of men whose names will be etched on a very similar memorial someday.
The impact of visiting those two sites in quick succession was dramatic and totally unexpected. That was the first time in a long time I teared up in public. Tears of frustration, concealed (thank God) by sunglasses.
Blood must be shed for our blessings, I know, but da-n if we humans aren’t quick to send others to battle.
Thank you, again, for your service at home and on distant shores.
Allen, aged 32, never early for a meeting.
(Just wanted to do that since I’m not sure I’ll hang around after the War-strategy goes into play in a couple of days.)
If you want to get a sense, from one man’s perspective anyway, of what it’s like for young men at the point of the spear today, you might read “Generation Kill,” by Evan Wright — a Rolling Stone imbed back in March 2003.
I am very envious of Mr. Wright. He was riding in a Humvee with Recon Marines who had been assigned the task of racing ahead of the main force in the HOPE of attracting ambushes. They did a good job.
That song list is perfectly consistent with what Wright documents. And while some of the Marines drank coffee when they had a chance, they were more likely just to eat a handful of instant coffee crystals at a time — along with the ephedra pills, the natural adrenaline that flows in battle and so forth.
After I finish this book, I plan to get my hands on another written by the C.O. of the very platoon that Wright traveled with. It’s called “One Bullet Away, the Making of a Marine Officer,” by Nathaniel C. Fick. It will probably be somewhat more conventional than Wright’s version, but I expect that Capt. Fick (he was a lieutenant when Wright knew him) should be able to write. He’s a Dartmouth grad.
Oh, and before anyone assumes that the song list implies certain things about the ethnicity or class of these Marines — there was only one black Marine in the unit, and some of the enlisted men were middle class types who chose this over college.
They just like hip-hop.
I second what Capital A had to say, VietVet. Thank you.
And Capital A, you are capable of such laudable thoughts and expressions that will always be welcome on this blog. Sometimes, of course, you step beyond the bounds of what I will accept from the anonymous; people who have the courage to stand behind their words will continue to get away with being jerks if they so choose.
I ask you, though, not to deprive us of your better and higher thoughts. Give this a chance.
Brad,
Only two of the songs I listed are hiphop/rap…the rest would fall into the category of metal/punk/hardcore/etc.
My comment on noticing the pattern was related to the titles of the songs…
not exactly “When Johnny Comes Marching Home” or “Over There”, right?
And, VietVet, who says:
>Most of our music was anti war and yet
>there we were blasting villages, people
>and water buffalo while listening to
>Hendrix and others.
No, I have never served in the military.
And judging by your experience, I can’t say I feel like I missed much. I’ll just have to take your word for it that blasting villages and people was groovy.
I imagine we’ll be seeing a lot of IraqVet bloggers forty years from now who will still be defining themselves by the horrors they experienced today. I’ve got a father-in-law who still can’t get past his WWII days after 65 years. I guess that’s why they say war is hell.
Doug, I wasn’t boasting of “I” did or enjoyed, I was stating a fact. I suspect if you’re out in the open and someone shoots at you, you’d shoot back, and with intent to kill.
I have only in the last few years opened up and started talking about my war time experiences, I suspect Iraq brought it to the surface. Most of my life after the military I pretended was someone elses. My disabillity status with the VA also brought back many memories I’d buried.
To those that thank me, thank you, but what would really make a difference is visiting W.J.B. Dorn VA hospital here in Columbia and see those young men now coming in from Iraq. At 57 I found myself surprised to be waiting to see a Dr. along side a young man of 22 and realized he was a Vet. I thanked him as well.
Hey VietVet,
I don’t know if you want to relate to an evangelical perspective on this, but I read your last post with a lot of interest. My brother-in-law is a psychologist who worked/works a lot with Vietnam vets. He talks about his own experience here. I’d be interested in your thoughts on that, if you’re interested in commenting.
Too bad all the chickenhawks can’t be sentenced to working at VA Hospitals.
Somehow I don’t think that the World Bank (Wolfowitz) and The State offices (Warthen) give enough exposure to the human costs of ideological fanaticism.
Herb and Cap A – I wish I were still a college kid. Now my college enjoyment is paying for mine to go. That may be why I also watch the education spending and costs at the university level in SC so much. I am a Tiger all the way but I actually pull for the ‘Cocks when they aren’t battling Clemson. Then, whenever Clemson plays USC, I get to exercise my compassionate conservative side as I feel some real compassion for the beating the ‘Cocks get. But I love it anyway.
Interesting conversation above on the subject of music and war. We’ve all seen the movies, Apocalypse Now, Platoon, etc and how the directors use music to accentuate the scenes. But if our troops are blasting music into their heads in the middle of a battle, well, that may explain some of our casualty rate. Ridiculous and dangerous. Training and discipline must have changed since I was in. I was taught your eyes, ears, and nose were your assets to stay alive. Giving up the hearing sense is unreal to me. I have two young guys on my street who got back from Iraq a few months ago, and I will ask them about this.
Herb, I read the article and found it interesting. I know during the last Presidential election, alot was made over John Kerry’s recollection of events in Vietnam.
I read and watched on TV as several of his “shipmates” harpooned his recollection. I’m not really sure what their intent was, but I know from my own personal experience, John Kerry’s story was closer to the truth than his “shipmates”. It wasn’t always the norm, but it did happen that way sometimes.
I suspect their motive for denying and portraying Kerry as a liar and bad officer was really political and not in the realm of honest recollection. Maybe Kerry wasn’t the best officer, many aren’t, but I did believe his story as I’ve seen it personally.
On the other hand, I know what “all” vietvets thought of National Guard members during that conflict. It was one step beneath running away to Canada and one step above getting a college deferment.
Volunteer Services at the VA for anyone interested is 776-4000 and I’m sure they’d appreciate any time from anyone.
Volunteer Services at the VA for anyone interested is 776-4000 and I’m sure they’d appreciate any time from anyone.
There’s your chance, Brad. Volunteer and witness the human consequences of your mistakes.
I’m not holding my breath.
Vietvet – You may not be aware but of the 53,000 US dead in Vietnam, over 10% were National Guard and Reserve. So keep on disparaging those who sacrificed as if they were draft dodgers like Bill Clinton if that is what you like to do. I wonder what the Guard viet vets think of veterans like you.
The gang movement in South Carolina is real. The arrest of the four marines at an alleged gang meeting should wake up both law enforcement and the military.
That said, isn’t sad that high school football games, a part of our state’s culture almost held sacred, now have security that rivals the attendance of a government VIP?
I don’t have all the answers to this problem. But, I do believe that somehow we must create a change in culture so those young people who are vunerable to gang membership see better alternatives to a successful life.
It’s not as simple as most politicians see it. We can not just “lock em all up.” We can not just create some government program. We have to change the culture.
Maybe seeing the video you offer here and having to go through metal detectors to watch high school football will wake some people up to the fact we have got to get to work now to change the culture.
From what I understand, a big reason gangs attract many young people is for the sense of belonging and affirmation from peers. At this stage, young people are “coming into their own” and establishing an identity even if it’s contrived and established by others.
I’ve been in 4 high schools and at each the ROTC programs are very successful. The kids get that belonging! Think of the similarities – uniform colors, hierarchy, rules, consequences etc.
BTW, I found a notebook one of my students left in class a few years ago. It was a gang manual; it was typed, had chapters, and was clearly well thought out.
Dave, what is the source for your assertion that, “of the 53,000 US dead in Vietnam, over 10% were National Guard and Reserve”?
VOA – Service Component Number of Records
Military Reserves 5,760
National Guard 97
Regular Military 34,475
Selective Service 17,672
Unknown, Not Reported 189
Total 58,193
http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html#branch
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