Whenever I see regulars commenting on something in the news on a post regarding a different subject, as Herb did here:
Does anyone know what to do about the continued massacre of citizens in public places in this country? The kids that were killed yesterday–they were my kids. Oh, not literally, but every time it happens, I see my own kids, and in a real way, we are all in this together.
I suppose some people will want to arm more people with weapons to fire back as soon as the guy starts shooting, and others will want to blame socialism for the guy’s maladjustment to begin with, but I’d like to know about some workable solutions, besides turning our society into the set of a Grade B Cowboy movie (everybody armed with pistols). Can anyone help? Who is going to stop the next guy who is mad at the world from killing another dozen people? And the next kids may very well be my own.
Posted by: Herb Brasher | Feb 15, 2008 12:06:54 PM
… I realized I may have been remiss in my duty, not having posted on a subject of high interest to readers.
So consider this post an opportunity to discuss the shootings in Illinois yesterday, and other such events.
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Trying to be as unpartisan as I can, Herb, I’d just suggest metal detectors for public buildings, including dormitories, student unions, classroom buildings and other on-campus structures.
As little as I like having to pass through the metal detectors at airports and at my county’s courthouse, I certainly wouldn’t mind a little extra trouble, even paying more taxes, for the sake of saving lives.
It is a character problem, not a problem with inanimate objects like firearms, gates, fences, and metal detectors.
If you train small children to properly handle firearms, respect firearms, and leave firearms alone unless an adult is supervising them, you won’t have all these problems later, where you have to treat the symptoms with metal detectors, security guards, and prisons.
Societies which teach universal firearms training, such as Minnesota schools, Switzerland, France and England and Germany before the 1920s, have (or had) very little firearms misuse.
We should also consider that the killer was
reported to have begun behaving erratically since going off unspecified medications recently.
As a nation of pill takers, especially those that alter the chemical imbalances of the brain, maybe that’s an area to focus on. The number of kids and adults on ADD drugs, anti-depressants, sleeping pills, etc. is staggering.
Lee is right the problem comes from so many people growing up in cities. I spent my early childhood on a farm and knew how to handle rifles and shotguns by the time I was six. I also knew better than to touch them without my grandfather’s permission.
In those days the parents ruled and punishment was swift and non debateable. Today the state owns the children which is why I don’t have any.
As a matter of fact in those days children had to obey any adult and if the adult did something to the children, punishment was swift and non debateable. They had a word for it respect which is why there so many problems with the schools today. In those days if you came home with a note from the teacher, you were in trouble not the teacher.
Weldon’s right also, it wouldn’t hurt to have metal detectors.
You have your finger on something there, Richard. Things aren’t like they were not too terribly long ago.
One thing that plays into errant behavior is too many one parent families and more two-parent families with both parents working, sometimes one of them working two jobs. In some homes, TVs are raising children, and TVs aren’t very loving. The content of TV has also changed.
Once upon a time, when I was a kid, a TV show HAD to have a happy ending. The networks had a code.
Now, anything and everything is available on a thousand channels. CSI, Criminal Minds and a host of shows, some of which I watch, give us serial killers, dismemberment and, if possible, even more shocking violence.
I might be libertarian in my leanings, and I certainly value freedom of speech, but sometimes I think we need to get together as a society and put limits on TV content.
I’m pretty much convinced that the more a child learns is possible, particularly when whatever errant act viewed has no actual violent effect because it’s just television, the morely likely the child might be to repeat that behavior.
TV teaches young children today that people kill each other. I didn’t learn that when I was a kid until I reached at least double digits in age. Today kids kill other kids. When I was a kid, they didn’t.
I suspect that a lot of the then/now and country/city divide stems from one problem. When I was small, I could play with the other children in my neigborhood, but there were enough parents/adults at home that we were to an extent always supervised. When we went to school we came home to parental supervision. In short we were culturally oriented to the adult world. Theirs was the standard we wanted to follow. So often now, children are oriented to a child’s world. They start daycare before their first birthday, and spend a major part of their waking hours with other children. This too often prevents them from easily separating adult responsibility from make believe prowess. The ‘code of the wild west’ or the macho of gangs is reality to them. And yes, my Daddy taught me about guns, too. But, it seems these folks shooting other folks have figured out the basics of how firearms work, and if I’m correct, their parents have not been able to invest enough time with them to make them want to act like a responsible adult. They haven’t gotten past the juvenile revenge/self-pity emotional merry go round because that’s the culture they know, go to, and accept. Meanwhile, its pretty painful for everyone to deal with the results.
These shooters, like the ones at NIU and VA Tech, are terrorists with a personal agenda of hate, and without the political agenda. The motives are the same, the modus operandi are the same, and the targets are the same – helpless, unsuspecting, unarmed children packed into a place where there are no armed people to defend themselves.
The Israelis figured this out very quickly after the first few PLO attacks on schools, and they armed and trained all the school teachers. A few PLO terrorists were shot and killed by teachers and parents, and the PLO sought some softer targets.
In the 1950s or 1960s, no one would have shot up the VA Tech campus, not just because people were better then, but because every student was issued a 1903 Springfield or M1 Garand rifle, and kept them in their rooms.
Lee, I’m assuming that rifles were in VT rooms because it was a military institute. So that means that every coed on campus now should carry, what, a 34 magnum to class?
I was hoping for more solutions, not more analysis as to how we got here. I’ve got kids in university–well only one left, but the same thing happens at shopping malls nowadays.
Treat the symptoms, if you will, including metal detectors (Weldon, that you are willing to pay more taxes for them, well that speaks volumes, coming from you), but so far metal detectors is the only realistic voice I’m hearing.
If a guy is really mad at the world, for whatever reason, is there any way to prevent him walking into an auditorium and opening fire with a shotgun? And think, folks, — it’s your kids in the front row.
What do you think we should do? Nothing?
Oh, I forgot one–Lee says arm the profs. Still not sure about that one. Not at all.
Treat the symptoms, if you will, but what should be done? Just let this keep on and on? If I can’t cure the flu, I’d sure like to make life bearable with Nyquil. That’s a bad analogy, but you get my drift?
Oh, an interesting question occurred to me. Some of the VT victims were dedicated Christians. Lee says all students should be trained with weapons. WWJC — what would Jesus carry? Shotgun? Rifle?
Somehow I can’t imagine Him with any of the above. A whip, maybe, to drive the free market capitalists out of the Temple, but a loaded weapon? It was the Roman soldiers, and the Jewish Temple police, who carried weapons. Oh, and Peter too, as Brad pointed out.
Anyway, I find the question more intriguing than “what would Jesus drive?” I’m not saying that weapons don’t have their place, but it is still an interesting question.
Jesus would have done what Jesus always did–break bread with sinners (harlots and tax collectors included). He would have reached out to include the outsiders before they shot. But we’re a long way from that. And no, I don’t like that idea either, particularly, but it’s the one I’m called to follow. And yes, he would have prayed for them and forgiven them. And I’m not good at that either.
In the Book of Luke, Jesus says, “He who hath not a sword, sell his coat and buy one.”
I really don’t want to humor the silliness of Herb Brashner. Let’s try to discuss this seriously.
I want to know what these “unspecified” medication(s) were, and why the news media is not telling us. You can bet if he’d had something as dangerous (snicker) as cannabis on his person, that fact would have been trumpeted: Tragic Drugs Shooting.
There is a pandemic of substance abuse in this country, and it is rarely discussed in the MSM because the corporate masters are getting fat on the profits gleaned from addicting an entire nation to little happy pills–ones that, once you start, you just can’t stop. One wonders if that aspect isn’t factored in on purpose when these insidious, man-made substances are concocted.
I could be wrong, but I suspect that this guy was on some major psychotropic–and that he needed it. The state of mental health care in this country is so fragmented that few people who need it get the support such persons need. Luckily, very few become violent. A better, more available health care structure? Sure, but we’d have to pay for it some way, and I don’t think most people care to do that.
Lee’s attempt to misuse Jesus’ figure of speech about the dangerous situation before Him, and try to prove He advocated carrying weapons is the only silly comment on this thread. Of course my WWJC comment above was suggested with a bit of humor, but I think it is worthy of consideration, especially for those who want to claim Judaeo-Christian values for our country, and at the same time still arm the general population to the teeth. Is that really the way to go? Maybe it is, but it would be interesting to hear from other people.
And suppose the prof in the classroom had been armed–would that have stopped this? And if it would have–is that the way this country needs to go? Swiss males indeed keep a weapon at home, but with the ammunition box sealed and ready for inspection. Theirs is an entirely different situation. To overstate the situation: are we then going to be the only country in the world with half the population armed to shoot in case the other half goes crazy?
I would be interested in what Mike Cakora has to say, not because he is a Christian (he isn’t), but because even as a “conservative,” he has a cool head about law enforcement and violence prevention. Is there any way to head off these massacres before they happen?
OK, news reports are confirming the medication thing. So who is going to make sure that troubled individuals like Kazmierczak are taking their pills.
And if video games are to blame, what should be done about that?
The news reports I read indicate that campus police were on the scene in 90 seconds, but the killing had already been done. Interesting thought about arming profs (unless you think about all the implications); unless they regularly have to undergo combat-shooting training of the type military and police personnel get, any shooter would get the drop on them and take out the prof first. I learned “quick reaction” shooting from my grandfather, but in that case I always had a loaded weapon in hand.
In addition to the epidemic of mood-altering medication in this country, there is an epidemic of blaming institutions, schools, big business, and society for the personal failures and hurt feelings of individuals.
The news media is constantly telling every loser that it is not their fault, and to look for a villain, while the entertainment media bombards young men with fantasy violence in films and video games.
Taken altogether, the is just too little reality in the lives of many people.
Herb –this says, county sheriffs in Illinois issue permits to contributors and others based solely on political considerations.)
I’m honored by your respect for my opinion, but am afraid that I will disappoint you. Please hear me out and follow the links I provide.
I too am shocked at the NIU shootings. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and visited the DeKalb campus several times. I also know of too many young males who’ve committed suicide for stupid reasons, am too well aware of the prevalence of psychotropic drugs and problems with their potency, changes in prescriptions, and the like, with some very recent scares in that area. I was also quite recently surprised to find that prescriptions for things like smoking cessation also involve psychotropic drugs with associated behavioral changes and risk of suicide. Did I mention that I have two kids in college?
So from a game theory perspective, it seems to me that any gun-free zone is an invitation for any wacko wanting to do damage to do damage there. The solution, then, is to eliminate gun-free zones.
We don’t need to do so by having armed posses patrolling the perimeter or having cops at every corner. We can do so simply by introducing ambiguity. I’ve written earlier about arming teachers. My point there was not to arm every teacher, but to announce in a reassuring, pleasant fashion that some members of the staff might be armed. How many, which ones? Guess.
A stronger approach would be like that taken by one of my brothers-in-law; he lives in an upscale neighborhood in Virginia where many homes have a small sign announcing the alarm company that “protects” the residence. He simply pays the state $25 per year for NRA license plates for the one vehicle he keeps in the driveway. Sirens or bullets? Your choice. So far he’s had no break-ins.
So in response to Brad’s blog entry on this topic and your request, I’ve written Gun-Free Zones = Free-Fire Zones. Please take a look at it and comment on my blog or here.
I do believe that there’s more info that the public health system could legally share with law enforcement despite the restrictions that HIPAA imposes. If someone appears dangerous in the eyes of a qualified health provider, that health provide should be able, if not required, to notify law enforcement. I’m not so sure that anybody should be able to do so, but that’s because of human nature and the pettiness therein.
But as a last resort folks should be permitted to defend themelves and others, and concealed weapons permit holders are self-selected to do so. Ironically, Illinois, home of the NIU shootings, does not issue CWP permits.
(An aside. I don’t care what
I’m having trouble posting this response, so I’ll try to do it in two parts.
Herb –
I’m honored by your respect for my opinion, but am afraid that I will disappoint you. Please hear me out and follow the links I provide.
I too am shocked at the NIU shootings. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and visited the DeKalb campus several times. I also know of too many young males who’ve committed suicide for stupid reasons, am too well aware of the prevalence of psychotropic drugs and problems with their potency, changes in prescriptions, and the like, with some very recent scares in that area. I was also quite recently surprised to find that prescriptions for things like smoking cessation also involve psychotropic drugs with associated behavioral changes and risk of suicide. Did I mention that I have two kids in college?
So from a game theory perspective, it seems to me that any gun-free zone is an invitation for any wacko wanting to do damage to do damage there. The solution, then, is to eliminate gun-free zones.
We don’t need to do so by having armed posses patrolling the perimeter or having cops at every corner. We can do so simply by introducing ambiguity. I’ve written earlier about arming teachers. My point there was not to arm every teacher, but to announce in a reassuring, pleasant fashion that some members of the staff might be armed. How many, which ones? Guess.
A stronger approach would be like that taken by one of my brothers-in-law; he lives in an upscale neighborhood in Virginia where many homes have a small sign announcing the alarm company that “protects” the residence. He simply pays the state $25 per year for NRA license plates for the one vehicle he keeps in the driveway. Sirens or bullets? Your choice. So far he’s had no break-ins.
So in response to Brad’s blog entry on this topic and your request, I’ve written Gun-Free Zones = Free-Fire Zones. Please take a look at it and comment on my blog or here.
On to part two.
Part two.this says, county sheriffs in Illinois issue permits to contributors and others based solely on political considerations.)
Herb –
I do believe that there’s more info that the public health system could legally share with law enforcement despite the restrictions that HIPAA imposes. If someone appears dangerous in the eyes of a qualified health provider, that health provide should be able, if not required, to notify law enforcement. I’m not so sure that anybody should be able to do so, but that’s because of human nature and the pettiness therein.
But as a last resort folks should be permitted to defend themelves and others, and concealed weapons permit holders are self-selected to do so. Ironically, Illinois, home of the NIU shootings, does not issue CWP permits.
(An aside. I don’t care what
One more time: (An aside. I don’t care what this says, county sheriffs in Illinois issue permits to contributors and others based solely on political considerations.)
Herb, Notwithstanding what Lee says, Jesus very definitely saw his way of caring for others was to eat with those who were ‘outside the pale’ and to change them by inclusion. The only other alternative is escalation of atrocity. People who want to have ‘their rights’ lose that approach immediately when confronted by someone whose mental disease leaves them totally incapable without assistance. Their best approach is circa 1900, i.e. lock ’em up, and/or ‘it’s their choice’. There are people who would much rather shoot them, or lock them up, rather than ensure treatment (i.e. pay for decent community mental health care). They’ve made it a crap shoot, with our children in the balance.
Karen –
I want to put my remarks in context. I acknowledge that there’s been a movement against the institutionalization of the impaired. How and why that happened becomes moot when, in the very small percentage of cases, one is confronted with an individual wielding deadly force in public or private. In fact, at that instant, the reason for or background of the individual is immaterial, the preeminent issue is to stop the force by whatever means available.
To be sure we must study every instance of such crimes to find a way to prevent their recurrence by identifying possible perpetrators, communicating methods and means for early intervention, and the like. I never thought that such was easy but was astounded to find recently how hard it really is given the prevalence of psychotropic treatments and how readily changes in dosage and frequency can destabilize individuals who for years had exhibited no outward signs of aggression or hostility.
Somebody has to identify folks at risk of aggressive antisocial behavior, whether it’s the parents, healthcare folks, or passers-by. Ideally such behavior will be controlled in some manner long before it becomes active, murderous rage.
But if such rage is not identified, communicated, and controlled, the public has a right to defend itself. My argument is that they should have the means to do so. That’s all.
Sorry you were having that trouble, Mike. I think it was all the links. That happens to me sometimes, too. I went and restored your original message, although I see now that was redundant.
Jesus Christ could sit down with psychotic individuals and cure them. The New Testament records such miracles. The rest of us cannot do that, no you, not me, not any psychiatrist.
Liberals and progressives turned all these people loose, saying they could be treated with drugs. Maybe so, but we sure see a lot of them wandering the streets as hobos, or becoming serial rapists or going on killing sprees.
As Mike Cakora notes, every student and professor doesn’t need to be armed, just a few. It works in Israel. It works in Switzerland. It would take a better class of professor to work here, but that is achievable, too.
Most people who are mentally ill are not dangerous. It’s only rarely that one encounters one who is. It’s not the ones who are under a doctor’s care who are most dangerous. It’s the ones who’ve quit going to the doctor and have quit taking their psychotropics who may be. And most of them aren’t. They merely take up room in homeless shelters or under bridges. It’s also the ones who never had a doctor but have so much rage and/or self hate that it eventually erupts who are the most dangerous. If we’ve got several people armed, unless they are well trained and practice frequently, what we’re going to have in these situations is killing crossfire. To my knowledge, the one approach that has never been consistently tried by any society is Jesus’. I suspect it is the only one that will actually work.
Making it known that faculty and staff, perhaps even students, are permitted to carry concealed weapons campus would be a disincentive and lower the probability that an armed wacko would try a stunt on campus. It’s no longer a gun-free zone.
The notion of bringing the OK Corral to campus is a mainstream media notion that doesn’t match up to what’s involved, and it’s not rival gangs of desperadoes trying to eliminate each other. So far these events have involved one shooter. If there are two CWP-holders, each would be focused on getting into position for a clear shot at the miscreant, not at each other or others. They’d be scared, but they’d be careful. While I’m sure that they’d be praying, each would realize that it was up to them to do the Lord’s work and end the carnage.
According to this Newsweek article, students may carry concealed weapons at Colorado State University nine state universities in Utah’s system.
The article has an interesting interview with a board member of “Students for Concealed Carry on Campus,” a non-profit organizations that’s trying to get more guns on campus. In the right hands, of course.
If armed Israeli kindergarten teachers can thwart the attacks of trained PLO terrorists, I am sure Americans can do as well against our homegrown untrained mentally ill killers.
Liberals and the media all speculated about carnage from reforming the concealed carry laws, with fantasies about gun battles in grocery stores and on the roads. None of it happened. As usual, the liberals were wrong. What did happen is some armed citizens stopped some serial rapists and carjackers, and street crime fell. Then the gun grabbers like Bill Clinton tried to claim credit for it.
Mike, thanks very much. You did indeed give useful info in the direction that I thought you would, and you may well be right. I can see that it might be helpful to put weapons “in the right hands.” Who that is, and on what basis, I’m sure is crucial, and I’m glad that you emphasized that point.
Several of my extended family members are either card-carrying NRA members or sympathizers, so my position may not be what you thought it might be. (I went to the recent gun show here in Columbia, by the way–but the best part of it for me was the books.) Besides, there are so many guns in this country already that stopping their use, apart from the constitutionality of the question, would be impossible.
I’ll comment later on a couple of other points that Karen and others have made. I just want to say that I appreciate very much your approach to commenting on any subject–one that uses rational arguments, not questionable statistics, and does not plaster the “liberal” label on everyone you disagree with. I can always learn from what you write.
Mike, Lee, I made the point that those who are armed must be currently and frequently trained. Otherwise, they aren’t going to be looking for a shot. They’re going to be like ‘most everyone else, taking cover. Either that, or they’re likely to be firing wildly, or some combination of both. Training is what’s important here if you’re going to arm people. It’s not my idea of the best way to approach this problem, but it might slow these folks down, if they are capable of caring about it.
I agree, Karen, and I don’t know how that is supposed to really work, but surely a number of different people need to work on a variety of solutions, short-range and long-range. I can’t comment on the whole CWP thing (which is why I asked Mike), but I am convinced we need to make public places, and especially universities–and probably also larger church services–safer.
Jesus did not deny the need for law enforcement and practical measures, but as you have pointed out, His Kingdom works on another basis.
It would be interesting if people who are in the know could lay out practical measures that we should be taking right now to make sure this happens a lot less often. There are enough angry and/or sick people in the world to cause a lot of worry. And we’re not talking about foreign terrorists.
Every school teacher in Israel is in the military, and is trained in weapons use and hand-to-hand combat.
Same for Switzerland, where every adult is required to have a firearm, and every home is issued a fully automatic battle rifle and 200 rounds of ammunition. Crime is a culture problem. Switzerland’s crime is mostly committed by foreigners, because the Swiss population is civilized.
America’s crime problem mostly comes from the pollution of backward cultures who immigrate here but refuse to accept the morality and self-control of Western Civilization.
I think you should ask around and talk to folks who have a CWP to find out what makes them tick. Carrying a loaded gun is an awesome responsibility that most of these folks take very seriously; they realize that they are equipped to kill someone. Folks who get a CWP tend to spend time at the firing range because they understand that real gun control is hitting what you aim at and that you don’t aim until you understand that you have to shoot.
There are a lot of resources available for folks serious about self-defense. Finding and getting familiar with the right handgun is just the start; even an unloaded pistol can hurt you and shooting well is hard. The psychological aspect is just as important, so concepts like the Cooper Color Code are helpful.
Lots of folks take the CWP classes but never go on to get the permit. Some just wanted to get familiar with a handgun. CWP instructors are certified (and often are law enforcement professionals) and run a tight ship, especially during the mandatory range exercises, so a lot of practical information can be gained by those with little weapons familiarity. Many folks start thinking after the class about all the implications of a CWP and decide that it’s not for them.
I worry about folks who don’t have a CWP. Lots of folks around here have a pistol in the glove box and know just enough to load and point it; imagine what’s going to happen if they believe they have to defend themselves. Scary.
I also think that everybody, even my mom, should know how to safely pick up and unload a handgun or long gun.
Probably few are still looking at this thread, but I’m sure most thinking people will suspect that Lee’s information on Switzerland is misleading.
Just to be sure, I wrote to some of my friends in Switzerland, and among other things, his statement “every adult” is totally wrong, and so is “every home.” It is every male (normally, though women can volunteer) that has done military service.
Not by any means does every Swiss home have an army rifle, nor is every adult armed. Most Cantons regulate the issue 24 rounds (not 200)of sealed ammunition that is regularly inspected.
The whole thing smacks of government regulation that would be totally anathema, I would think, to every libertarian in this country.
Herb, you made that up.
I worked in Switzerland, and just recently purchased a surplus Swiss K31 rifle, with the name of the original owner. I used to own a SIG AMT, and have been in the gun stores when citizens came to pick up the SIG 550 they had on layaway, with their 200 rounds of ammunition. Every small town had a public shooting range, which was busy every nice weekend. Everyone was required to own a handgun, too, and most kept one at work.
I have had to post the laws and customs before on other web sites when confronted with fabrications like yours, and will probably have to do it here.
George Washington wanted to make gun ownership mandatory, on the model of Switzerland and England, but settled for making “every able-bodied man” a member of the militia, a well-armed and well-trained (“well-regulated”) militia.