Over the weekend, we had our gazillionth in a series of letters from indignant writers insisting that they are NOT anti-immigration, they are anti-ILLEGAL immigration:
We in the pro-enforcement camp do not oppose legal immigration, and we do not call for discrimination against legal immigrants, no matter their race or ethnicity. All we ask is that our government enforce its immigration laws, secure our borders and deport illegal aliens.
Since when is being in favor of law enforcement on a nondiscriminatory basis racism? Certainly, those who favor illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal aliens have been unfairly labeling us, as they have no legitimate reason for opposing enforcement of our nation’s immigration laws.
And of course, for about the gazillionth time I thought, fine — let’s change our immigration limits and streamline our procedures so that the Mexican labor our economy seems to demand can get in legally. Then, we’ll all be happy. I certainly will, because I don’t like having a shadow, extralegal population either. People in this country from another should be documented. People who are hot about illegal immigration will also be happy. People who just don’t like having a lot of Mexicans around will not be, but you can’t please everybody.
Why not remove the incentive to come in illegally by lowering barriers to legal immigration? I’m not an economist, but it seems fairly obvious that there is a demand for Mexican labor in this country — and a demand for American work in that country — that is greater than the supply we are currently processing legally. Those demands will continue to exist, and those forces will continue to attract vast waves of people to this side of the border, whatever laws we have. So let’s get serious about getting a handle on it.
The people who actually ARE economists disagree with each other on all this, of course. Here’s an interesting, fairly dispassionate piece that was in the NYT Magazine a couple of years back, which examines whether we should let so many unskilled workers into our economy. If you’re looking for an absolute "yes" or "no," you need to look elsewhere, but I found the discussion interesting:
Economists more in the mainstream generally agree that the U.S. should take in more skilled immigrants; it’s the issue of the unskilled that is tricky. Many say that unskilled labor is needed and that the U.S. could better help its native unskilled by other means (like raising the minimum wage or expanding job training) than by building a wall. None believe, however, that the U.S. can get by with no limits….
What the economists can do is frame a subset of the important issues. They remind us, first, that the legislated goal of U.S. policy is curiously disconnected from economics. Indeed, the flow of illegals is the market’s signal that the current legal limits are too low. Immigrants do help the economy; they are fuel for growth cities like Las Vegas and a salve to older cities that have suffered native flight. Borjas’s research strongly suggests that native unskilled workers pay a price: in wages, in their ability to find inviting areas to migrate to and perhaps in employment. But the price is probably a small one.
That last point, of course, is an important one to discuss. And in fact, if these are NOT "jobs Americans don’t want," but merely jobs with conditions and wages depressed by an oversupply of cheap labor from south of the border, then we should reduce the flow northward, and thereby raise wages and conditions for Americans (and the cost of goods and services, but that might be a policy outcome we decide is worth it).
But if, in the aggregate, these millions of Latinos are just a supply meeting a demand without widespread ill effects on the working class, why not let more in legally?
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1. Why let in anyone whom we don’t NEED? Why let in Mexicans to take low-skill jobs from Americans with families, and from students who could be learning the value of hard work and job skills, like we used to do?
2. Why increase the population of the country, and add pollution, urban sprawl and more loss of wildlife habitat?
3. If we are going to allow any immigration, don’t we need complete control of the borders first?
4. If we are going to allow any immigration, why give priority to Mexico, just because they can most easily travel here? Why not give all nations a chance with a lottery for a very limited number of openings?
5. If we are going to allow any immigration, why let Mexico dump its poorest, sickets, and most illiterate citizens on the USA, as well as hundreds of thousands of drug dealers, thieves, robbers, and prostitutes?
7. Why not prohibit anyone but US citizens from receiving any welfare, government aid, education, government jobs, or other tax money?
8. Why not seek out the most highly skilled, best educated, most civilized people, who already bring money with them, and have demonstrated an desire to shed their Old World mentalities and become American?
“But if, in the aggregate, these millions of Latinos are just a supply meeting a demand without widespread ill effects on the working class, why not let more in legally?”
For one thing the illegal labor that is being brought in is not meeting a demand. This illegal labor is placing a burden on every American community that ends up having to subsidize that labor at the expense of their own families. What ends up happening is the American family becomes displaced. The issues America is facing today have nothing to do with immigration. This has always been an industry issue detached from the American family and community. When industry imports illegal labor it places social and economic burdens on communities on both sides of the border. The NAFTA agreements have been the sole cause of the movement or mass illegal migration across our southern border. Whether you wish to address them as multi-national corporations or entities that control the flow of goods, this type of human manipulation for profit is not immigration. What is now common short term benefit for the black art of globalism, corporations have absolutely no qualms in exploiting the masses. What industry is doing successfully is intentionally bypassing the social development cycle for profit. What fallout is created by this is of no concern or value to them, its your problem. No, we don’t need more Mexicans illegally, legally or otherwise.
“But if, in the aggregate, these millions of Latinos are just a supply meeting a demand without widespread ill effects on the working class, why not let more in legally?”
For one thing the illegal labor that is being brought in is not meeting a demand. This illegal labor is placing a burden on every American community that ends up having to subsidize that labor at the expense of their own families. What ends up happening is the American family becomes displaced. The issues America is facing today have nothing to do with immigration. This has always been an industry issue detached from the American family and community. When industry imports illegal labor it places social and economic burdens on communities on both sides of the border. The NAFTA agreements have been the sole cause of the movement or mass illegal migration across our southern border. Whether you wish to address them as multi-national corporations or entities that control the flow of goods, this type of human manipulation for profit is not immigration. What is now common short term benefit for the black art of globalism, corporations have absolutely no qualms in exploiting the masses. What industry is doing successfully is intentionally bypassing the social development cycle for profit. What fallout is created by this is of no concern or value to them, its your problem. No, we don’t need more Mexicans illegally, legally or otherwise.
For every Mexican we let in, let’s send them someone back. Red Rover, Red Rover, let [can I pick?] come over.
Brad Warthen: let me suggest you do some research into all the steps the MexicanGovernment takes to encourage and profit from IllegalImmigration. Search at my site, or see this introduction: city-journal.org/html/15_4_mexico.html
Then, come back and tell us exactly what you’d do to prevent Mexico from having even more of a say in our internal politics. If you don’t mind a foreign government having some degree of control over our internal politics, let us know.
Brad, the answer to your question lies in the matchless squalor of El Paso’s urban sprawl.
Not a vision for America, that. Not at all.
Demand for cheap labor exists because those who use it understand that they can get people to work for below minimum wage and without benefits. If the employers of illegals were forced to comply with all labor laws, the demand would shrink.
Enforce the labor laws and the issue of illegal immigration disappers. It’s already happening across the country where the basic employment laws are finally being enforced.
And would your plan to increase the number of immigrants from Mexico require those who are here illegally to return home and get at the back of the line?
If not, then you are proposing amnesty for people who have committed a crime.
If you don’t mind a foreign government having some degree of control over our internal politics, let us know.
-TLB
If it would help keep John McCain from becoming the next POTUS then I’m all for it.
I think what Brad’s trying to get at is that there is currently an imbalance, and somewhere along the axis of more/less legal immigration there is a tipping point where people who are now crossing the border illegally might stop and realize it’s easier to get in legally. Who knows if our politicians (or us) have the will to look at it dispassionately, but that is definitely what is needed.
Sure, Doug, why not? And while we’re at it, we can wish that there’s enough oil to keep consuming at current levels without the price going up — but that doesn’t make it happen. We can “require” it all we want, but basically, a liberal democracy can’t find 12 million people who don’t want to be found, round them up and deport them. It’s physically impossible. I doubt that even a full-fledged police state could do it.
My way, I think a lot of folks would go back and come through the right way on their own, which would ultimately make their lives better. But not all of them would, not by a long shot.
But we could argue all day about that separate point. The question posed above is: Since the reason that these people ARE illegal is because the legal limit is way too low and unrealistic, why not set it at a more rational level?
And Campbell, help me follow you. You say, “This illegal labor is placing a burden on every American community that ends up having to subsidize that labor at the expense of their own families,” what do you mean? In what way is this an expense to families? And does that expense outweigh the savings from lower goods and services the families have to pay for? Also you say, “What ends up happening is the American family becomes displaced.” Displaced how? Certainly it displaces MEXICAN families, in that they have to uproot themselves and/or separate to follow the jobs across the border. But how does it displace the families already here? Give some examples, please.
“Let us waive that agitated national topic,as to whether such multitudes of foreign poor should be landed on our American shores;let us waive it, with the one only thought,that if they can get here,they have God’s right to come.
Herman Melville
Your question starts with an incorrect premise — that illegals are here because the limit is too low.
Illegals are here because they will accept below minimum wage, poor working conditions, and no benefits because that is better than what they have in Mexico.
You may be willing to create a third world tier in the American economy so developers can build houses cheaply but I’m not.
Nobody said anything about rounding up 12 million illegals. Enforce the labor laws and there will be no jobs for them to come here for. They will leave on their own.
It’s already happening.
If they want to enter legally AND pay taxes on their incomes, I have no problem with however many people come to this country.
Well, apparently — and I know this violates a core belief of many who are worked up about the illegals — there are taxes being paid, and not just sales taxes. I noticed a sign outside a West Columbia business offering tax filing services (I THINK; the Spanish vocabulary I learned as a child didn’t cover tax issues), and I hear the same services offered in Spanish on the radio (FM 93.9, also out of West Columbia). Going by the stuff y’all are always telling me about how well markets work, I’m assuming such businesses don’t pop up without a bunch of folks wanting to file their taxes.
And now bill’s trying to turn me against these foreigners, too — if they try to make us read Moby Dick, I say they should go back where they came from.
In what way is this an expense to families?
When a family member loses work because an illegal took all or part of it.
Displaced how?
From the job to the unemployment line.
Sometimes, Brad, you are dumb as a post.
I am taken back by you questions Brad. If you import labor, people, children into a community without permission the resources, taxes dollars of that community will no longer be fairly distributed to its citizens. Since there was never a need or demand for this labor in the first place the burden to support those people fall on that community. The demand to support these people for a purpose not intended for that community displaces its citizens.
Your question, “And does that expense outweigh the savings from lower goods and services the families have to pay for? (No)”
seems to be a rather awkward on your part. The price of consumers goods and food has not gone down at all but increased. Do you do your own shopping and cooking Brad? Ask anyone on this blog about the cost of food and products. Of course the price of fuel has a direct effect on costs, but even before prices on staples have gradually increased steadily.
Let me ask you a question Brad, do you shop at Walmart?
Apparently Brad assumes all Spanish speaking residents of Columbia are illegal.
I mean there couldn’t be a market for doing the taxes of legal Spanish speaking commnuity members?
You do understand that in order to pay taxes, you probably have to have some type of taxpayer Id number, right? Something an illegal immigrant probably doesn’t have.
All I would suggest is that you get some factual evidence supporting your theory before just throwing it out there as the solution.
Just an observation, from which I draw an inference. As someone involved with a lot of Hispanics, I know those ads are unlikely to be aimed, say, at the Cubans or Colombians I know.
Yes, the Mexicans who I think are the prospective customers could be legal. But again, I look at proximity to large employers who are rumored to employ illegals — such as the place where roughly 4 out of 5 workers questioned told a certain newspaper they were illegal. Maybe the tax place is working only with the legals in the neighborhood; I don’t know. That’s certainly possible. I’m just sharing what I see and hear.
Yep, I shop at WalMart — where everything seems to be made in China. But that’s a different subject.
Why is it “dumb” to ask why there’s a cost to families, weldon? Let’s assume for a moment (and this is a wild, unsupported assumption) that every job held by an illegal was ripped from the hands of an American who wanted and needed it. The math still wouldn’t work. There are more immigrants working here than there are unemployed citizens. And you’d be hard-pressed to find a lot of Americans who are in lower-rung, less-well-paid jobs than those held by the illegals.
I don’t doubt there are some people who are seeking a job and can’t get it because the jobs are held by illegals, and a larger group of people whose wages are suppressed by having so much cheap competition. And it’s legitimate to try to measure those effects, and consider them in the balance when deciding whether the legal limits for Mexican immigration should be higher, lower or whatever. But I have no idea how to quantify any of that. Are we talking about a smattering of people affected, or is that the dominant effect of illegal immigration? Does anyone know?
“Yep, I shop at WalMart — where everything seems to be made in China. But that’s a different subject.”
Actually its no different then your current subject. Try looking at the big picture. You will notice a lot of similarities. Take care.
Why grant someone citizenship just because they are here to work? We should use/modify our guest worker program to satisfy this demand.
Brad, I’ve already answered your question, and Campbell has, too.
But let me answer it again by asking you some others:
Do you really think all 12 million illegal immigrants are working bottom end jobs for less than minimum wage and that’s all they do?
Do you really see those 12 million people you believe to be so invisible not even a police state could round them up as a monolith of tax-paying non-citizens?
The Sun News actually has a credible series running on immigration, from a grassroots, real-life perspective. First story ran yesterday (Sunday).
See Today’s story:
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/story/392643.html
Their report continues next Sunday-Monday.
This is good journalism worth reviewing — even if you’re just trying to goad Lee Muller.
More fodder for Muller’s hate-mill
Illegal workers bolster tax rolls
By Robert Morris – The Sun News
As S.C. politicians craft new immigration laws, the numbers they rely on are unverified cost estimates generated by avowed foes of immigration who some brand as a hate group.
Meanwhile, leading economists say illegally hired workers prop up the state economy and contribute almost as much to the state budget as they take out. …
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/story/392640.html
Brad, as long as you are resolved to be untruthful about it, I intend to call you on it: There IS enough oil to continue consuming at current levels. There IS enough oil to support a growing and thriving US economy into the foreseeable future.
Liberal obstructionists and recalcitrant Luddites have refused to allow american corporations to develop and extract domestic oil reserves that are known to exist for thirty years.
These same folk have refused to allow the expansion of refining capacity for longer than that, simultaneously hampering efforts to go nuclear.
David
I’m not sure what your comment has to do with this post, but the whole thing about “Liberal obstructionists and recalcitrant Luddites” being the cause for us not having enough refining capacity is pure bunk. The oil companies are the ones that bought up and shut down or drove out all or most of the independent oil refineries throughout the US. They shut them down to increase margins by driving down supply, and then complain because the hippies won’t let them make new refineries. It’s total bs.
Sorry if that was a little mouth-foamy, but the whole idea that the beneficent oil companies are being victimized by the all powerful forces of the environmentalists is absurd.
Brad, the links Gordon provided tell the tale well enough. In some states, illegals cost the government more than they pay in taxes. In other states, the reverse is true.
In South Carolina, illegals cost taxpayers money.
Thank you, Brad, for being on top of the situation as usual. Apparently, the silver lining on all the communitarian clouds distorts the view from the upper quintile.
There is a parallel between this situation and the illicit drug trade. As long as there is a demand, poor Hispanics will risk everything to get into the U.S. Working on Romney’s yard or serving as a nanny for some blue blood is winning the lottery compared to living in the card board shacks just south of the Rio Grande.
What confounds this problem is the fact that extremist in the faction wanting tighter border security insist we don’t provide amnesty. Amnesty encompasses anything that would allow the 12 million illegals a path to legal status short of leaving and waiting in line. As Brad wrote months ago, not even the Nazis could round up every Jew so how would a democratic government come close to evicting this 12 million?
It’s whack-the-mole. Illegals will scour the U.S. for a nanny position or to work for some unscrupulous business man who is cutting costs in any way possible. That is a far better alternative to schlepping back to Panama (it’s not just Mexicans) to a hopeless world.
Funny how the supply side proponents who decry big government and who want Adam Smith’s hand to solve everything, want big government to hunt down 12 million illegals, build and maintain a massive wall to the south, and to create some type of national ID. Brad’s point, I believe, is to find the balance between supply and demand and let the market forces play a larger role.
I ask basic policy questions and Gordon calls that “hate”, in an effort to shout me down and out of the conversation. It won’t work.
It also doesn’t matter if a few illegal immigrants pay some taxes. A lot of them don’t, and their employers don’t, either. Even a lot of the legal immigrants are exempt from paying income taxes and FICA. The employers get to use them for a year, avoid paying FICA and state unemployment taxes, then replace them with a fresh one.
Illegal aliens last year consumed $40 BILLION in welfare and other services, and bankrupted 20 hospitals.
“Brad’s point, I believe, is to find the balance between supply and demand and let the market forces play a larger role.”
This is a dangerous point.
We need to remember that the NAFTA agreements for example are unconstitutional. There will never be a balance between supply and demand. The needs and rights of the people are being ignored. Again this is not an issue of politics, culture, political correctness, etc. This is an issue of control, the limiting of our freedoms, rights and oppertunities as Americans. We could have the Chinese on our southern border. The card playing is nothing more than distraction and stalemate ploys. The constant bickering without resolution keeping you off balance along with your society. If the majority of a population is not unified, uneducated without resource, they are easier to control and manipulate. Our laws have been watered down to the point to where they have become ineffective. This is not an issue of left or right and the players are taking you for a ride. The Mexicans, the poor unwanted are in essence being thrown out of their country so I guess you would probably feel the same way if you were in their position. Their reality is now becoming your reality.
Lee,
I agree with the l through 8 statements as well as the illegal aliens last year consumed 40 Billion in welfare and bankrupted 20 hospitals.
I do not see how much more of this prosperity we can stand from all the illegals.
Randy,
I keep trying to push the idea that we don’t have to round up 12 million illegal immigrants. Who has said otherwise?
Rather than rounding up 12 million, all we have to do is enforce labor laws on the industries that take advantage of the illegal immigrant workers. Stiff penalties for employers who use illegal workers will cause the illegals to go back home and enter the country legally.
Illegal alien invaders are not part of the free market, because they operate outside the law, to circument the system of regulation for legitimate businesses.
Anyone who excuses these hordes of criminals and their employers should not complain about any citizens who decide, for example, to avoid paying taxes or obeying environmental regulations.
I think there is a direct correlation to the number of comments on a given post and the craziness of Lee’s comments.
Jay, is there some specific point with which you disagree, or just not understand?
Jay, are you putting that forth as a theory to be measured and tested? Sounds to me like it might be quantifiable.
Want me to put in a good word for your research project along those lines? I’m in tight with some of those endowed chair folks…
And Lee, don’t be so quick to take offense. For instance, note my own self-deprecating tone. Irony can be fun; you can learn to do it at home in your own free time…
There should be some consideration for letting in some laborers legally. What must be done is that we can not have families accompany workers and we can not allow families to be created here. Once a family is created or reconstituted in America it is no longer cheap labor. It becomes a low wage job with a government subsidized benefits package. Before anyone begins to protest that not allowing whole families would be cruel I would simply say we have been sending our young soldiers to Korea for decades without their families and that was the cost of being a soldier. Family seperation is a way of life for many countries that provide cheap labor. Countries like the Phillippines, Pakistan, China etc. And I may ask, why Mexicans? We could get English speaking journeymen for the cost of Mexicans who can’t speak English and need training.
We can stop the travesty of our laws, if only the majority of Democrats would co-sign the SAVE ACT. With only 18 more votes to go, we could bring this enforcement only bill to a vote. However, the Democrats want to attache an addendum to the bill. It would give the 12 to 20 million foreign nationals occupying our nation, an easy ride to legality. This is wrong when millions wait for years patiently, to get THE PEOPLES permission to get a entry visa.
The SAVE ACT is a by-partisan law is awaiting just 18 signers, to bring this enforcement only to a House vote. The SAVE ACT will supersede any state laws, in its magnitude. It will go after the real culprits who are the predator employers. It is enforcement by Attrition or Self-Deportation. Cannot get work, then they will leave of their own accord.If you are one of the citizens fed up with subsiding the poor, uneducated from around the world. When the new personage steps into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, then we will be seeing the 12 to 20 million getting a path to citizenship. Nobody should have a right to legalization without going home and being processed like all immigrants.
This is obviously being well played by the pro-illegal immigrant factions, hoping the national publicity will ultimately change the majority of public opinion regarding the illegal alien invasion.
An example of the huge budget meltdown for supporting illegal aliens in California is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, quoting from a Los Angeles newspaper. The growing connection between the wilting economy and illegal immigration is irrefutable. We only have to look at the massive budget deficit in California to realize the implications around our nation. Quoted as saying.
“Illegal immigration continues to have a devastating impact Los Angeles County taxpayers,” Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich said. “With $220 million for public safety, $400 million for health care, and $420 million in welfare allocations, the total cost for illegal immigrants to county taxpayers far exceeds $1 billion a year – not including the millions of dollars for education.”
Assemblywoman Mimi Walters, a Republican from Oceanside, said illegal immigrants cost California taxpayers an estimated $9 billion each year.
YOU! And only YOU, can stop this travesty of our Immigration laws?
Tell your representatives to co-author THE SAVE ACT?
Congress is currently on recess through March 31st, so your representative will likely be in the home constituency and available to meet with its citizens.
FREE FAXES FOUND HERE. Keep calling your Congressmen today, toll free numbers include 1-877-851-6437 and 1-866-220-0044, or call toll 1-202-224-3121 AND REGISTER YOUR OUTRAGE at ongoing efforts to keep our country from enforcing its immigration laws!
http://capwiz.com
http://www.numbersusa.com
http://www.fairus.org
http://www.vdare.org
The first excuse of socialists for letting the criminal aliens stay here is, “We can’t round them all up!”
They didn’t think they would have any problem rounding up all the 75,000,000 gun owners when they want to outlaw handguns, “assault rifles”, or whatever.
You just can’t get an honest answer out of socialistic liberals…nothing but spin.
lee … have you ever considered that the term “socialistic liberals” is a derogatory slur you sling about for the purpose of shouting down anyone who disagrees with your Attila-like proclamations of “fact” and “statistics” — most of which fly in the face of human decency? There’s more to our world than numbers, especially when those numbers represent real people living and working in our communities. … You call them criminals because they got here illegally. I call them neighbors, because I see how hard they are working to make a better life — not as criminals, as you say, but as honest people no different from my ancestors.
“Socialistic liberals” is an accurate description of those people who like to call themselves “liberal”, but favor European socialist government programs to forcibly impose their will on the unwilling majority. A true liberal favors a government limited by a Constitution, and convincing people to share their vision, as individuals, and sometimes as legislation within the strict confines of that Constitution.
I am a liberal.
What are you?
Yes, I call those who criminally enter the United States, “criminals”. They are.
Some work hard, but so do many burglars, car thieves, dope smugglers and other criminals. Many white liberals excuse these criminals because they have a romanticized notion of them. They are afraid to be realistic and critical for fear that they might be racist. Their romantic images are racist.
I have already posted the raw numbers of those illegals from Mexico, whatever their country of origin, who are in prison or fugitives sought by law enforcement. I have debunked several phony studies posted by those who want more excuses for not dealing with Mexico’s dumping of its least educated, lowest-skilled, poorest and sickest citizens on the USA.