Had to shake my head again this morning at the fecklessness of the West:
North Atlantic Treaty Organization ministers struggled against the
limits of their powers Tuesday at a meeting in Brussels. They called on
Russia to withdraw its troops from Georgia immediately, but stopped
short of saying what they would do to punish noncompliance.
If we don’t say what we’ll do "or else," Putin does what he pleases. He might anyway, but this way it’s cost-free for him.
A civilization that behaves this way, that can’t stand up to naked aggression against an underdog ally, deserves to decline. The tyrants running China, looking forward to their century, have to be loving this — first the Olympics, now this. Can life get any better?
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We’d have a much better standing on this issue if we weren’t needlessly provoking the Russians by putting an ABM system right on their doorstep.
Don’t get me started on “Star Wars,” dude. I’ve always been sort of appalled by it — although I’m less bothered by theater missile defense than I am by the strategic version.
The fact remains that the Russian behavior is inexcusable, and cannot go unchallenged. There have to be consequences for rolling over a Western ally, or every bit of progress made by New Europe since 1989 goes by the wayside. We can’t just leave those people hanging like that.
Short men with big ego’s can do big things.
Let us start a short man naming contest. The one that can name the short guy that caused the most deaths worldwide while in command. That is the object.
My point can be understood if only one will think about history.
Things in Iraq are finally, after 5+ loooong years of quagmire, death, desctruction and a staggering financial bill to pay, settling down into something close to normalcy. And the war-first crowd quickly finds a new hotspot to get involved in. Unbelievable. Simply Unf_____ing believable.
Those of us who oppossed to the occupation of Iraq understood the flawed theory behind this nation building exercise. We surmised, early on, that regardless of the outcome the deaths of hundreds of American soldiers simply was a price too high to pay to depose a ruthless dictator. This was especially true given the likelihood that he was no real military threat to anyone, especially not to Americans. Part of this opposition was, of course, the cost component. I was oppossed to the invasion even though I believed we would lose, at most, 1,000 soldiers and spend under a hundred billion dollars. The final figures turned out to be more than 4 times higher than those I was unwilling to accept.
But another part of the equation is playing out in Georgia now. The Russians sense our impotence in dealing with a new military threat. They also sense a new aggressive nature by the Americans that Bill Clinton had worked so hard to get away from. With Bush, Jr. in charge the Russians have seen nothing but a foriegn policy based on intimidation, fear-mongering and bluster. Given their own yearning to provide a safe haven for the Russian people of South Ossetia Moscow’s pent-up frustrations have exploding with what has become an overbearing, yet predictable, incursion into the terroritory of an American ally. Yes, the Russians have gone too far to protect it’s people. And yes they too may have imperialistic intentions. But to suggest we simply must get involved in this strictly European affair goes way beyond the bounds of common sense. It’s simply not our fight.
Bud, for about the 4th or 5th time, on whatever subject, I must say you are an idiot. If you take your logic, we should have not gotten involved in WWII. We should have sent the Japs a bill for the damage they did to our ships, not to mention the American lives lost. (I guess we deserved it since we shouldn’t have been there in the first place). After all, Hawaii wasn’t a state. Why did we even get involved in Europe? Once all of Europe spoke German, and all of Asia spoke Japanese, how do you think they would have divided up North America? Everybody East of the Mississippi would speak German, the West, Japanese.
Oh, you stepped over the line that time, Fargo. bud doesn’t stand for folks drawing analogies between today and WWII. I’m afraid you’re going to face some consequences now; bud’s going to get VERY indignant…
That said, don’t you think your use of the analogy is just a TAD hyperbolic? Folks in Kansas speaking Japanese?
There is no analogy between WWII and Iraq.
We didn’t change the reason why we fought in Japan and Germany as the war progressed. We didn’t finance the war using tomorrow’s dollars. We declared war as a nation not as a Presidential decree.
Simple question – we know when we won WWII. Will we know when we win the “war” on terror?
Everybody East of the Mississippi would speak German, the West, Japanese.
-Fargo
How about if we all speak Spanish as a compromise.
You mean “surrender”, not compromise.
Neither we nor NATO nor any country in Europe is in ANY position to dictate and give ultimata to Putin. Our self induced energy anemia, lack of will and financial profligacy have the Russians laughing in our faces.
Expect Russian missiles in Cuba anon.
Where oh where is Superman?
David
Putin sees a weak America. Even if they don’t elect the weakling Obama, enough of them show weakness in voting for him.
So why wait until January 2009 to start grabbing oil pipelines? Get control of Europe’s oil before winter, and force them into silence while Russia arms Iran.
Russia’s choices aren’t all that pretty either. Putin may be a Stalin wannabe, but he’s got more sense than to arm Iran. Iran, Turkey and Russia have historically contended over who has the most influence in the Caucasus region. I doubt he’s going to arm a major rival.
Steve, Lee and I usually agree on nearly everything, but I don’t know whether or not I agree that Russia will arm Iran. Given what Russia is attempting to do with petroleum however, it makes sense to me that Putin would see having Iran beholden to him as an advantage.
Meanwhile, what he is doing in Georgia is very clearly a thumb-in-the-eye, “up in your grill” challenge to Europe, NATO and most especially the US. And it can be argued that this outright challenge is being made separate and apart from whatever Putin may or may not be attempting with Iran.
Whether Iran is involved as Lee asserts or not, these moves by Putin are ominous. And because of people who believe as Bud and Brad do about our energy predicament, we’re in no shape to respond to Putin as we should.
Dave
Russia is already arming Iran.
So are the Czechs, who just sold Iran one of the most advanced radar systems and radar-guided missiles capable of tracking and shooting down stealth aircraft.
Russia was selling Iraq’s oil on the black market. It is is also moving oil for Iran and supplying heavy military hardware.
Georgia contains major pipelines and seaport s. Right now, Russia has no significant winter seaports.
The world is complicated isn’t it? Georgia breaks from the Soviet Union. South Ossetia breaks from Georgia. Apparently there are area within South Ossetian that are enclaves of Georgian heritage. I suppost they could then break with South Ossetia. And on and on it goes.
But what does any of this have to do with the U.S.? If South Carolina wants to break from the U.S. and Richland County wants to break from SC what business is that of China? Seems like an internal matter to me.
Russia and some of its people in Ossetia SAY that all of Ossetia wants to secede from Georgia, and isolationists, socialists, and Soviet apologists accept it as fact.
If it’s bad for America, or Bush opposes it, they like it.
I think for the Russians, this was a definitely opportunity. Surrounded by US-allied countries more-and-more, the public felt Mother Russia was looking weak. Plus, they have a new President, Medvedev. Things weren’t looking so rosy at the Kremlin, to says the least. They needed to keep him looking good, just like former President (and current P.M.+) Putin. They figured they could make this show of force quick and easy, knowing NATO wouldn’t be a real threat. A nice quick boost for the popularity of the new president.
Bud, I agree with you, to a certain extent. I certainly agree with you on Iraq – I’ve felt that way since the beginning. But, this tends to involve a much more sensitive issue. Georgia was seeking a membership in NATO. If this involved a NATO member country, we would be obligated to get involved – the basic premise of NATO is that an attack on one of us, is an attack on all of us. Given the weakness of the NATO response here, I’m afraid none of us NATO member nations would stand up to that obligation.
This is what I see – the events in S. Ossetia are MUCH more complex than the media has reported. Georgia under their current president has become a major regional US ally, but it’s still no democracy by any means. I don’t know how this was provoked. But, I do know the Russians decided to cross the border and enter legitimate Georgian territory. Many would argue we did the same thing in Iraq – I agree on that point – it’s stupid to chide the Russians for invading another country when we might be accused of being hypocrites.
But this is different. It involves one of our allies. I believe we have a responsibility to aid our allies when they are threatened. Despite the fact that I cannot give a moral justification for the war in Iraq, I still believe in my country’s intentions. Our intentions weren’t to inflict punishment on innocent people, unlike the Russians.
Ultimately, I think the Russians fear us a lot more than we fear them. They feel backed into a corner, but now NATO is looking weak and giving them opportunities.
I do think it was wise to have Sarkozy in charge of a lot of the negotiations. But NATO as a whole needs to stand stronger against this aggression in the future.