Being pretty sure that I’ve had this explained to me before, and I just forgot the explanation, I’ll ask again: How come we say "Beijing" instead of "Peking" now?
Here’s the thing that puzzles me about this: It was supposed to be a phonic representation of the way the Chinese name sounds. So how could the West have been so wildly wrong about the way the name of that place was said for so long? "Peking" doesn’t really sound anything like "Beijing," or at least not enough so that if someone said "Beijing," we would make the mistake of writing it phonetically with a "P" and a "K."
And if his name was Mao Zedong, why did we hear Mao Tse-tung for all those years?
My theory is that one version of Chinese somehow won out politically over another. Like Mandarin over Cantonese or some thousand other variations, because I know there’s a bewildering array of them. Another theory is that the Chinese are just messing with the heads of us foreign devils, and maybe at the height of the Olympics, while they have the attention they’ve been craving, they’ll suddenly announce that the city’s name is pronounced "Vei-ling" or something, just to see if we’ll start calling it that. Then they’ll laugh their heads off.
But I suppose that’s just the paranoia of the Westerner who never truly understands the East, try as he might.
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Wikipedia has a nice article on China’s decision to standardize the romanisation of its, including how to pronounce the various symbols in Pinyin and a comparison of Pinyin to the older Wade-Giles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin
I can’t tell if this was pure comedy or an actual question with comidic undertones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing#Names
The better question is why do we say Prague when the Czechs call it Praha, Moscow when Russians call it Moskva, Munich when Germans call it München (ü can be replaced with ue for English speakers – Muenchen) or worst of all Japan when the Japanese (Nipponese) call it Nippon.
it would have helped to spell comedic correctly
Maybe that was the phonetic spelling, from some language or other…
And Norbert, there is usually a bit of self-deprecating tongue-in-cheek in such items, something which takes some getting used to for some readers…
But I’m serious that while I’ve had this explained to me before, either the explanation has never sufficed, or I keep forgetting it, or both. Then again, sometimes I’ll post something like this rather than research it because I think other people probably wonder about the same thing, and a discussion of it might be helpful to all of us.
I’m deep, dude. I operate on many levels. Best get out the hip boots.
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao,
You ain’t gonna make it with anyone anyhow…
Another interesting note on the pronunciation of Beijing. The “j” in Beijing is just like our “j” sound — as in “Joke”. However, newscasters (and thus others) often pronounce it like the “s” in “pleasure”. I’ve asked a number of Chinese friends about this, and they’ve always wondered why we don’t use the standard “j” sound as well….some even thought maybe we just couldn’t pronounce the sound! In fact, as far as I know, Mandarin Chinese doesn’t even have a soft “j” sound in it…the closest sound to it is what pinyin transliterates as a “x” — but that’s closer to an “sh” sound. I have a theory that somehow it’s related to the fact that the French and (somewhat) the English pronounce “j” like “s” in “pleasure”.
(If anyone is reading this who knows the answer as to why we pronounce it this way, please post the answer).
But you know it’s gonna be… alright…
Just more wild speculation on my part, but I’m guessing the broadcasters who say the soft "zh" sound rather than the J in "jump… go ahead and jump… (sorry, but p.m. got me started)" think the "zh" sounds more cosmopolitan, more like they know something. It’s the way the French say it, is it not? And Spanish doesn’t have our "J" sound at all, except when overpronouncing the "Y" sound in the double-l, or "elle." Saying J as in "jump" just sounds so Nebraska or something.
That’s why I say it "zh," anyway.
Speaking of Nebraska, how do you say "Nevada?" I can’t bring myself to say it the way the natives do. It’s a Spanish word, people; why not say it correctly? I have enough trouble with the way Texans say "Amarillo" and "El Paso." Makes ’em sound like Slim Pickens, which gets us back to goin’ toe-to-toe with them Rooskies…
I think it goes back to when the Tommies ruled the world. British arrogance, you know. Why else would they make Cologne out of Köln, or Bombay out of Mumbai?
Oh, the Brits are notorious about that. I think back in the days of empire, there must have been a separate ministry in HMG with the sole mission of finding out the proper pronunciation of foreign place names, then making sure no Tommy or colonial administrator EVER said it that way…
As for Texans — well, they just talk that way because they’re Texicans.
Well, you just stepped on this Texan’s toes. But it isn’t just Texans. People from Central Illinois refer to San Jose, and it starts with “j” as in “jack,” and rhymes with “hose.” And “Athens” Illinois is with a an “a” as in “Aiken.” Whatever works.
“The better question is why do we say Prague when the Czechs call it Praha, Moscow when Russians call it Moskva, Munich when Germans call it München (ü can be replaced with ue for English speakers – Muenchen) or worst of all Japan when the Japanese (Nipponese) call it Nippon.”
I agree with everything you’v posted 100%.
China is “Zhōngguó” 中國
Egypt is “Misr” مصر
Jordan is “الأردنّ al-Urdunn
Morocco is al-Maghrib الماغرب
Syria is “as-Suria”, but the region was historically called “Sham”
Palestine is “Filisteen”
Turkey is “Türkiye”
The city of İstanbul has the emphasis on the first syllable, not the last.
Greece is Ελλάδα, Elláda
Switzerland is Schweiz or Suisse, depending on whether you speak German or French.
My pet peeves has been that since Sept. 11th, no one can seem to manage to pronounce the countries that have been a perrenial topic correctly.
Iran is “EE RAHN” and NOT “I ran” like “I ran down the road”
Similarly, ‘Iraq is ‘ir-RAHQ” and not “I rack”.
Afghanistan is “af GAHN is STAHN”
al Qa’ida is pronounced al QAH-e-DAH, not al-kay-da
The length of discussion in this string about the correct pronuciation of a word in a ridiculously incomprehensible language surprises and makes me laugh a little. Here is my thinking on the pronunciation matter:
This is frickin Chinese! There IS NO pronunciation that will make any sense or difference to anyone east of the Phillipines or west of the Great Wall.
That said, I think this irrelevant discussion really can be seen as a metaphor for just how irrelevant the Olympics themselves have become. The golden age of ABC Sports coverage (“Spanning the GLOBE…!”) and the deification of Olga Korbutt have long since given away to arrogant, snotty and self-absorbed little moron athletes who happen to have talent and have literally NO maturity or sense of gratitude, and to the huge ‘business’ the games have become. The Olympic Committee itself sells the games to the highest bidders and the committees members live lives of the “rich and famous” just because they’re on the committee. And the “faux” nationalism! Please….
The Olympic Games have been a charade since about 1970. Maybe before that. I find it very satisfying that the Olympics has become really a “Ho-Hum” non-event in the lives of most Americans. I would rather watch “How I met Your Mother” reruns than some talented loser like Peekaboo Street (or whoever that female skier was…could she have at least changed her name for a month in the name of decency?) doing her “all about me” act.
I’m just sayin.
David
“The length of discussion in this string about the correct pronuciation of a word in a ridiculously incomprehensible language surprises and makes me laugh a little.’
Incomprehensible to you maybe, but that’s nothing that can’t be rectified with a good language class and a little brainpower.
My older brother speaks Mandarin quite well.
“That said, I think this irrelevant discussion really can be seen as a metaphor for just how irrelevant the Olympics themselves have become.’
Actually, I think that Brad had made a very good point. Most Americans have heard these terms, but they don’t necessarily understand why they were changed. Therefore, it’s very relevant.
Rather, what seems to be irrelevant to this discussion is your posting your opinions about the Olympics.
Your brother speaks chinese?
Ooooh. Now THAT is impressive.
David
(The things some people think will be impressive to others absolutely astounds me sometimes ~ Believe me I could not care less that your older brother might speak chinese…why even bring this ridiculous factoid up? Talk about irrelevant!)
Now, given that you care so much about the correct pronunciaton of a word in chine frickin eez, I can only imagine that you watch the Olympics with great enthusiasm and diligently track Americas’ status in the medals race. You probably buy in to all the fluff and hype, and become emotional when you hear the personal stories of the athletes. You know, one legged maratoners and pregnant sumo wrestlers or whatever other pap the media serves up to you.
Got one word for you zaz. (now THERE, by the way, is a word I wish I could pronounce ~ you got the blog name from hell). Anyway, I have one word for you:
Loser.
David
Thank you for enlightening me and others I,m sure– Beijing use to be known by the western world as Peking. I’ve asked several friends and their remark is “that’s something to check out–I’don’t know”. So thank you for letting me know that I remembered before when it was referred to as Peking and wasn’t dreaming this up.
The reason is political correctness. What WE call it in OUR language has been changed in deference to third world countries (it’s now Beijing, Myanmar, etc. in English) but not first world (it is still Germany not Deutschland in English)
Good point. I not only resent that the Olympics were allowed to be hosted in the epicenter of human right violations but that we’re expected to alter the English word “Peking”, when far more deserving candidates,such as “Venezia”, “Firenze”, “Praha”, etc., located in civilized countries that don’t torture or “disappear” their citizens retain their English versions. Why not insist that we call “China” “Jong Gwor”? I doubt the Chinese call it “China”.