OK, so now Iraq was a bad idea, because Obama was against our going into Iraq, and the people (except for 46 percent of them) voted for Obama, so that’s the new truth. Right?
And we’ve always been at war with Eastasia.
See? I’ve always said I love Big Brother.
But here’s my question: When do we invade Pakistan? You know, that’s where al Qaida is and all, as certain people keep telling us. As one of my interlocutors said back here, "Al-Qaida was not in Iraq until we got there." Which prompted me to say:
If al-Qaeda is in Pakistan, and we can’t get AT them in Pakistan, on
account of the fact that Pakistan gets really, REALLY upset when we go
in there after them, and they’re a sovereign country and all (which
doesn’t bother ME; I still think it was a good idea to follow the enemy
into Cambodia in 1970, but presumably a lot of folks who voted for
Obama Tuesday disagree, although not necessarily Obama himself, which
is another topic), then isn’t it kind of a good thing to draw them into
Iraq, where we happen to have troops to fight them?Sorry about the long sentence, there.
Re-education is never an easy process, and as you see, I’m a particularly hard case.
You see, I forgot for a moment that Obama is all for doing a Cambodia and chasing al Qaeda into Pakistan, so in that sense we really didn’t need to go into Iraq (I still think we should have, for other reasons, but let’s stick with this point for now).
At least, I think Obama’s OK with that. That was the impression I had back in August 2007, when I wrote:
BARACK OBAMA was right to threaten to invade Pakistan
in order to hit al-Qaida, quite literally, where it lives. And as long
as we’re on this tack, remind me again why it is that we’re not at war
with Iran.
OK, OK, I know the reasons: Our military is
overextended; the American people lack the appetite; the nutball factor
is only an inch deep in Iran, and once you get past Ahmadinejad and the
more radical mullahs the Iranian people aren’t so bad, but they’d get
crazy quick if we attacked, and so forth.
I can also come up with reasons not to invade Pakistan, or even to talk about invading Pakistan. We’ve heard them often enough. Pakistan is (and say this in reverent tones) a sovereign country; Pervez Musharraf
is our “friend”; we need him helping us in the War on Terror; he is
already politically weak and this could do him in; he could be replaced
by Islamists sufficiently radical that they would actively support
Osama bin Laden and friends, rather than merely fail to look
aggressively enough to find them; fighting our way into, and seeking a
needle in, the towering, rocky haystacks of that region is easier said
than done, and on and on.
But when you get down to it, it all
boils down to the reason I mentioned in passing in the first instance —
Americans lack the appetite. So with a long line of people vying to be
our new commander in chief, it’s helpful when one of them breaks out of
the mold of what we might want to hear, and spells out a real challenge
before us…
Anyway, this seems particularly relevant at the moment, because Obama just won the election — perhaps you heard about that — and on Election Day itself, I read this in the WSJ:
ISLAMABAD — Pakistani officials warned U.S. Gen. David Petraeus
that frequent missile strikes on militant targets in Pakistan fan
anti-American sentiment in the country, an ally in the fight against
terrorism.The new U.S. commander of America’s wars in Afghanistan and Iraq met
Pakistani officials, including Defense Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar
and army chief Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, as part of his first international
trip since taking over U.S. Central Command three days earlier….
So what’s the new Commander in Chief going to tell Petraeus to do about all that? Keep up the pressure on al Qaida and the Taliban in their Tribal Area hidey-holes? Or back off in deference to our ally?
I’m sorry to interrupt everybody’s warm and fuzzy feelings about how we’ll be at peace with all the world now that Obama is going to be our president, but I’m ornery that way. I’ve got this habit of noticing that the real world has this way of intruding upon us…
Related Posts
Are you trolling for Lee? 🙂
Quite the non sequitur – using the contrapositive of an if-then statement to bolster, incorrectly, your “ornery” point.
The original statement: If Al-queda was not in the country, then we should not have invaded. The contrapositive becomes: If we invade, then Al-queda should be in the country.
This does not translate into: If Al-queda is present, then we should invade.
It’ll be a nice change to have someone in the White House who doesn’t define himself by how many people he can have killed… someone who doesn’t measure success by subtracting the number of innocent lives taken from the number of dead terrorists and feel good that A < B. All Bush did was prove we have the firepower to overrun much smaller countries. Whoopee. My one hope for Obama is that he completes the actual mission of getting Osama bin Laden. Can you imagine how deeply into the ground Republicans would screw themselves trying to spin that one???
Here’s a question for you, and it’s one I’ve often wondered about — would the nation be better off if Osama were captured, or killed? And do you really think the threat of al Qaida, of Hezbollah, of Hamas and all the rest of the terrorist pantheon, would be lessened if he were dead or in a prison cell?
I don’t know. And that’s why I’ve long agreed with Friedman that our goal should be “draining the swamps” that breed terrorism. If you’ll recall, that’s why he and I were for going into Iraq. We have to engage the nations of the region diplomatically, economically, and militarily — whatever it takes — to encourage the growth of liberal democracies and strong, dynamic economies. A liberal democracy with a healthy economy (a truly healthy one, not one completely dependent on the price of oil) doesn’t wage war on its neighbors or churn out terrorists.
If we got bin Laden, Pakistan — and Saudi Arabia, and Egypt, and Lebanon, and on and on — would keep producing terrorists. We need to change the conditions that make that so.
It doesn’t really matter whether you don’t like that fact, that is what we need to do.
According to Lee, we’d be much better off if Obama were captured (I won’t use the “k” word in case Brad is being watched by the secret service).
Friedman’s Sept 23 piece focuses on a the Iraqi government finally taking charge because the US commitment is coming to an end.
His June 18 piece focuses on no more open-ended commitment and that the Iraqi government needs to rise to the challenge. He also specifically comments that Obama’s withdrawl is valuable “leverage”.
One of the ways to help “drain” them is to keep our soldiers out of them, or at least as much as possible in the background. Where we do go in, we maintain a small presence of carefully trained troops, under the radar as much as possible.
Did you hear about the Pakistanis that were killed today–part of a group opposing the insurgents as well? They don’t like the Taliban any more than we do, but if we insist on playing cowboy, going in an blowing up the saloon, we only cause more trouble. Pakistanis want to get rid of them, but they do not want to be seen has protecting America. They don’t want to die for America or for American culture–the only estimation of which they get through American TV, movies, and the Internet.
We need to recognize as well that the only thing holding Pakistan together is the military, and we need to quietly help that military. Don’t holler about men like Musharraf. Don’t try to force democracy on Pakistan. Let the Pakistanis take care of that.
We also need to develop an even-handed policy towards Israel and the Palestinian. We helped force the Palestinians off of their land. I don’t suppose we can ever get it right, especially now after 40 years, but we could at least try to show more fairness. Evangelical Christians are especially bad about giving Israel a free hand to do what they want, but deny justice to the Palestinians. And Israel practices kidnapping of dissidents abroad–it is ruthless.
What makes anyone believe that Obama wants to capture or kill Bin Laden?
Remember, Obama was endorsed by Al Qaeda.
Obama’s Latest Endorsement – al Qaida.
October 30th, 2008
Abu Yahya al-Libi (al-Libi) has called for President Bush and the Republicans to be “humilated,” in the upcomming US election, according to news reports and messages at al Qaida sympathetic websites and bulletin boards. This marks another tacit endorsement of the Obama campaign by another radical organization. While I realize it may be unfair to say that Obama is supported by terrorists, or that Obama supports terrorism (which is not something I believe), I do find it quite disturbing that Sen. Obama’s campaign has been explicitly and/or tacticly supported by Hamas, Hezbollah, radical elements in Palestine, and now, it would appear al Qaida.
Here’s a question for you, and it’s one I’ve often wondered about — would the nation be better off if Obama were captured, or killed? And do you really think the threat of al Qaida, of Hezbollah, of Hamas and all the rest of the terrorist pantheon, would be lessened if he were dead or in a prison cell?
Posted by: Brad Warthen | Nov 6, 2008 9:34:27 PM
Apologies, dear viewers, for this revealing Freudian slip! We now return you to your regularly scheduled blogging; nevermind this man’s vain attempt to disguise his inner racial turmoil and his obvious right leanings despite pro-test-a-tions!
The typos around here sure are on the rice!
One ‘real’ fact all of you suckers have forgotten is: It is not Hamas, or Hizbollah, or Taliban, or Al-Qaeda that are ‘terrorists. It is the US that is the ‘real’ terrorist.
Here’s a question for you, and it’s one I’ve often wondered about — would the nation be better off if Obama were captured, or killed?
-Brad
Yes. He’s the guy who perpetrated a huge atrocity against the American people not the so-called swamps in Iraq and Iran. I think he’s still dangerous and could mount a new attack at any time. If he’s gone we should be a bit more secure.
“One ‘real’ fact all of you suckers have forgotten is: It is not Hamas, or Hizbollah, or Taliban, or Al-Qaeda that are ‘terrorists. It is the US that is the ‘real’ terrorist.”
Yeah, you might could say what we did was terrorism, but the winners write the history books. It was worth it and I’d do it all again if I had to.
Yeah, we might be better off if we captured Osama. I really think there’s no telling though. If we kill him then he’ll likely become a martyr but if we don’t ever capture him he’ll probably live on as some jihadist folk hero like the Swamp Fox of the American Revolution. Still it’d be nice to bring Osama to justice.
Personally, I think we are never going to defeat this brand of terrorism on the battlefield, but rather in the hearts and minds of the people in the Middle East. And that is done not by occupation and bombing, but by trade and peace. All we are really doing now is making their recruiting really easy.
You can’t trade with people when Al Qaeda and the Taliban are murdering every moderate politician and any businessman who trades with the infidels.
Stamping out irregular fighters and terrorists requires major efforts to annihilate them. Only when they are weakened can we begin to get cooperation from locals who have been held captive.
We have almost accomplished that in Iraq.
The next step is to seal off the country to prevent Iran and Syria from continuing to resupply the remnants and regenerate terrorism.
In Pakistan, the government is at somewhat of an armed truce with Muslim terrorists. They have to believe the US can and will back them in a thorough campaign against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, or they will not make a move.
That is why victory in Iraq has to be finished, and we have to turn up even more pressure in Afghanistan.
“You can’t trade with people when Al Qaeda and the Taliban are murdering every moderate politician and any businessman who trades with the infidels.”
Ok Mr. I Only Post Facts Which I Can Back Up, I would love to see where you are pulling that piece of information from. Especially considering we obviously get a little known commodity from the region called OIL!
A quick search finds that our trade totals over 47 billion with Saudi Arabia in 2008. Al Qaeda ain’t gonna be happy. That’s a lot of dead businessmen!
What point were you hoping to make, BTB?
Will it be better if Osama is killed?
It depends a lot on how the American people react to the news. If there is rejoicing in the streets, such as there was in the case of Hassan al-Banna in 1949, it could very well make things worse. The US military needs to be covert and keep a low profile, whatever the administration decides must be done in order to protect the American people.
Lee, my point is this (and this is just my opinion, I don’t claim to be right or know all the answers):
Occupation of Muslim lands breeds hate for America. Hate for American bolsters recruiting for radical groups that turn hate for America into terrorism. More terrorist attacks means more U.S. involvement in the Middle East which leads to more hate for America and the circle continues.
Trading with other countries leads to economic growth and greater wealth for all involved (I would assume you agree). Wealth leads greater opportunity for education. Education reduces ignorance (of America and her ideals, for instance). Also, trade leads to connected economies. Countries with connected economies have an incentive not to harm each other. That would give the people in the Middle East a great reason to not put up with the crap from terrorist organizations.
I’m not saying we are in Iraq to occupy them, but there’s no doubt many of the Muslim people feel that way. I just think that what we are doing now is stoking the flames of terrorism rather than suffocating it.
The more countries the U.S attacks the more people it will anger, and there will be more people who will want to fight against the U.S.
I used to live in Pakistan and I can tell you this much, if the US attacks pakistan the majority of the people (who are not part of the Al-Qaeda) will fight the U.S to protect their country.
The people who were not against the U.S will become anti U.S. But then if you’re throwing bombs at them and at their country what do you expect.
That’ll happen no matter which country the U.S attacks next. Because if you kill innocent people, their families will kill innocent people in your country. Tit for Tat.
Hi, This whole Idea of “why dont we just invade pakistan and get rid of the bad guys, what are we waiting for” Shows that your ignorant of the dynamics of the region. Pakistan isnt like Iraq, they actually have a miitary that can withstand an outside attack. Also lets not forget, they do have nuclear weapons that are ready to go. It would be stupid to use our resources to start a war in south Asia that woulnt help anyone. Instead we should have more of a presence on the actual Afgan border and help the Pakistan Military get rid of these extrimist. You got to remember, the Pakistani government and the people of paksitan want to get rid of this al queda threat. They have to deal with there attacks on a daily basis. Because of these terrorist, pakistan has had econimic and social problems that are neverending. Getting rid of al queda from that region would benifit everyone. Buts its a lot easier said than done.
Yes, obviously I meant “Osama.”
Are y’all done now with the silly overreactions?
It would really help if one of them would change his name. I don’t think Obama’s going to do that, because he’s done quite well establishing his brand. Anybody have bin Laden’s e-mail address so I can put the suggestion to him?
Of course the haters of America are going to use our military operations to try to incite other Muslims against America.
We can’t let that deter us from hunting down and killing all those who attack us, any where they attack us, and anywhere they hide.
Most of the Iraqis and Afghanis see us as their liberators, and they are quite right. If the terrorists control their part of the world, they cannot speak up in support of America. Only when we neutralize the Taliban, or Al Qaeda, or local thugs, can the decent Muslims who just want stay out of figthing and take care of their business, come forward and express their thanks.
If Obama wants to end a war with Muslims, he might start on something smaller, like Bosnia, where the Muslims armed by President Clinton are still waging war, and have driven 300,000 Jews and Greek Orthodox citizens from their homes, since Clinton declared victory and left office.
Lee you give me a good laugh every day.
Alicia, to educate yourself on the ethnic cleansing by Muslims in Bosnia.
“It would really help if one of them would change his name.” – Brad
If you had suggested that before the election, the liberals would have stoned you.
Here’s the email Brad.
[email protected]
Hi Brad,
I think you are quite stupid by writing a blog like this. I can argue very convincingly about your incorrect assumptions and narrow minded understanding of current US – Pakistani relationship. However, I dont have time to waste and I think, looking at the way you write, your mind is set in a certain “Crazy” way aboout Pakistan. So Daffa ho! (ask someone what it means in Urdu – which btw is Pakistan’s national language and you probably don’t know that there are other languages than English in the world).
(Btw, before you get happy about the popularity of your blog, you just happened to be a link in my gmail “alerts” and thats why I read your blog. Otherwise, its not even worth reading!).
Imran, didn’t you used to come over to Momma’s house and eat chicken?
I could swear I remember you sitting down at the kitchen table with us and throwing your chicken bones behind the refrigerator.
But if that were someone else, well, thanks for showing up here and being so danged friendly.
I just can’t help but wonder why someone so busy as you would stop in and waste his time saying he couldn’t waste his time by being here.
I mean, why did you bother to stop if you didn’t have something worth taking the time to say?
Brad,
It saddens to me to know that people like yourself have brought the world to the state it is in today. People like you feed off the media and believe everything you see on TV and western media. If you only paused to consider the plight of the people affected by US invasions and adventures, the unfair policies the US is pursuing particularly in the muslim world, you will find that the solution to the current problems in the world is through building bridges and helping each other, and not in killing more people. Killing people will only create more enemies and cause more killings. And also one final suggestion…or even a warning. We Pakistanis have many issues on our hands, largely thanks to Uncle Sam (who has used and abused us whenever it suited him), you are welcome to try your adventure in Pakistan. But be warned, we are no Iraq. Allah will decide, and time will tell the outcome of any US adventure. In the meantime, I hope you will see some light and give up your stupid ideas.Learn to respect other nations and people…if you want to be respected too.
i’d like to see u f@ckin try 😛
I am SO glad to have worked on the first B1 bomber.
HI brad Nice blog I am just a little confused Were you fuckin high before you wrote this shit or some pakistani really fucked you And if some pakistani really did something so outragous to you then man he is definately getting an upper chamber in heaven Peace
Just a headsup to enyone and everyone who plans to “invade” pakistan…..this is no afghanistan or iraq! just coz u keep our corrupt politicians happy dont mean the people of pakistan would let you walk over them that easily ….. ive got nuthing against anyone, but i simply can not stand the arrogance and the attitude america has towards everyone else…the biggest bully the world has ever seen…i hope your new president is wise enough to look at the problems at the core of all these issues than stick with the old gun slingin cowboy attitude.
We are trying to do Pakistan a favor, and rid the country of Al Qaeda and Taliban scum which Pakistan’s government lacks the political will to do.
Just let our Rangers and a few cruise missiles exterminate the rats, your leaders can beat on their chest about Uncle Sam, and then we can all get about our business.
As i wrote earlier about brad I guess Muller you are also a victim like him I am sorry to hear that Keep your favours to yourself No one gave you a right to meddle in each country affairs You are not here to make the world a better place Its not some micheal jackson song ( heal the world )
I don’t support the USA “meddling in other countries’ affairs”.
When another country is harboring our enemies who have attacked us, then it is our business. If that country is too weak, or unwilling, to police itself, then we have no choice but to go in there and exterminate our enemies.
If you don’t like us doing your police work, then do your own police work.
what enemies have you exterminated uptill now???? damnit you cant even find this mythical creature called osama.
your drones bomb and kill innocent people and then u bitch about why ppl hate america ?!?!? all this is achieving is more enemies, kill one innocent person make ten who hate the US even more.
civilized people dont go about swinging ropes like you tarzans !! there is a thing called diplomacy !! but then again whats the point…the day you realize what is the reason for this supposid “talebans” or whoever is the day your country would have no problems with anyone ever….
just answer me this, would you allow umm say, russia to come can bomb innocent ppl in the name of “fight against terror” or wehatever the hell your leaders want to feed you guys !! how can you justify killing thousands of innocent people so that your leader has another feather in his cap !?!?!
as far as sending your “rangers” are concerned….trust me ,you would regret it.
all im saying is i hope for your country’s sake, obama has the sence to deal with this issue diplomatically and without violence and aggresion.
America minimizes the coincidental killing of innocent non-combatants.
Muslim terrorists primarily target innocent civilians. That is what makes terrorism effective.
Drone aircraft, laser-guided bombs, and snipers are examples of our precision weapons for killing our enemies.
Cowards like Hamas and Al Qaeda hide among women and children, and even use them to deliver bombs in suicide missions.
umm yeaaaaaaaah right ! and if you believe that shit u’d beleive anything!! it is very easy to write a blog and comment on all this while sitting all comfy in your home….why dont you try and sepnd sum time in that area and see how ppl are trying to survive and particularly when the only home they had was blow up by a american “precision bomb”.
i am never going to favour any terrorist organization/person, its against my religon and my beliefs but my understanding is that people fight by whatever means available to them, you have your so called “precision” bombs and as they have nuthing else cuz america has already cripled them economically, they resort to the only means available and that is,suicide bombers.its plain and simple what goes arround comes arround.
how many terorists have been killed/captured compared to inoccent civilians.you guys need to improve ur intelleigence amongst other things before you go about murdering inoccents all in the name of hammas/alqaeda or what ever the hell your media flaunts about and has created.
you are quite quick to point fingers at everyone else but have you ever considered what israel has been doing there. Why are you so in denial of the fact that to a major extent all this was created by america in the first place,(yes i am refering to sadam hussain )….so when shit hits the ceiling and it has all come back to bite you in the ass, you go bomb innocents !!! bravo !!
I think there is no point having any intelligent debate with you.obviosuly your receivers are all turned off at this moment in time…for your sake i hope you do open your eyes and mind to the core issues, mayb then you would realise where the problem lies.
anyways enuff said.for everyone’s sake i hope things dont escalate to the stage of another war that america and certainly pakistan wont be able to afford.
my message is simple, unlike yours….peace….live and let live….you want taleban, sure have them,hell pakistan would do and is doin,whatever it can to help but it simply can not go and bomb its own citizens.and it is you who need our help not the other way arround so i suggest rather than work against each other we work together to rid the world of evil and hatred.but using brute force is not going to solve anything ..trust me
anyways im out
I have been a critic of Israel for 30 years.
Israel is, however, surrounded by fanatic Muslims who prefer to see millions of their people live in poverty and refugee camps, than to reach a settlement and end the fighting.
umm so that justifies whatever israel is doing there ???
see its simple you simply can not clap with one hand ! and btw the so called fanatic muslims were the one who allowed jews to com eand settle in that area in teh forst place while the rest of the world would have nuthing to do with them….
see the way i see it, america needs to make sum friends in that area also…right now ppl are taking america’s side because …well frankly cuz they have to….tables might turn sumday…then what?? israel isnt enough to befriend.if america wants to make friends in that reagion then it needs to solve or try and solve sum of these issues and to an extent that would include kashmir also.
and the setlements you are talking about have nuthing !!! its a baren land which has no water let alone any thing else…while the israeli setlers have taken all the good land with the water supply so how do u expect ppl to live there in the first place??
the fighting is never going to end if the west is going to turn a blind eye to these issues….as much as that area is sacred to the rest of the religions it is to muslims too…right now from where i am sitting….america and teh rest of teh west is taking israel’s side with no questions asked and thsi attitude is making america all so unpopular between the muslim world.
and just to answer this issue of “fanatic muslims” define then first ….do u mean to say muslims who have beards (so do jews and orthodoz cristians) women who wear head scarfs (what of nuns ??) see its very easy to turn a blind eye to these issue and classify ppl as fabnatics etc etc but there is always a flip side….america and the rest of teh western countries seriously need to reconsider there foriegn policies for the world to become a better place over all…if not…things are only gonna get worse im afraid… and such situations only favour a few select who feed on these negative issues in the world for their own profits and gains ….
Do you advocate the eradication of Israel?
You seem to be excusing acts of terrorism by Muslims against Christians, Jews and other Muslim sects.
after all ive said ….all you could read is “irradication od israel”….?!?!?! haha
i am never in favour or eradicating any country whether israel or china…my point is, if a israeli soldier shoots a 10 yr old phalasteni its right but if a phalasteni does so, then its terrorism ?!?! talk about double standards !!
like i said, you guys need to start looking at things a bit differently and not by face value only…terriorism by anyone is worth fighting against but when you cal someoen a friend you dont go and violate their airspace and land just cuz you “think” you are doing sumthing againsta al-qaeda?? all these so called missions are doinis inticing more hatred against america.
and to answer teh second part of your reply, i am not excusing anyone.its sumthing you have seemed to cook up yourself.
all i said was, everyone has a right to defend themselves whetehr its a jew,muslim or a christian … isnt that one of your civil rights, to bear arms for self defence….so the question is, what does a phalastini arm himself with when he has been crippled by israel with western worlds support??
i doubt there would be anyone who would like to see this situation deteriorate but then i dont see anyone solving anything either. the strategies used by america in its foreign policy are not dealing with core issues at all .
Afghan Citizen Blog.
thank yoiu