Aaaarrrgghhh!
I wrote this yesterday — and a lot longer than this — but failed to save it before Mozilla crashed on me. I’ll try again, and be briefer this time.
Check out the last of this bunch of letters from Monday’s page. The one by Carl Zwerling of Irmo. OK, to make it easy, I’ll excerpt it:
Nonsmoking diners unite. Boycott any restaurant that allows any
smoking, even in separate sections. If our state legislators do not
fight the tobacco lobbies (those donations from the lobbyists must be
quite lucrative), we, the diners, must take it upon ourselves to compel
our restaurants to make the proper and healthy decision to ban smoking.Maybe if the restaurant owners took it upon themselves to ban
smoking and advertised that their establishments were nonsmoking, they
might be pleasantly surprised to discover how much the bottom line of
their business increased because of the multitude of nonsmoking diners
who swarmed to their smoke-free atmosphere.Have you ever noticed that nonsmokers greatly outnumber smokers in restaurants?
How about, instead of a boycott per se, some positive economic action to encourage restaurants to go smokeless? I’m not exactly against passing laws to this effect, but why should that be necessary? Why doesn’t the market better serve the needs of nonsmokers?
As a colleague mentioned today, the problem with nonsmokers is that they are so passive, and act as individuals rather than banding together. We may quietly give our custom to smoke-free eating establishments. We may even complain about being choked to death in another restaurant’s "nonsmoking section." (How can any part of a room or building be smoke-free if part of it allows smoking? Airlocks? I haven’t seen anybody try that yet, and it sounds like a lot of unnecessary capital expense when you could just ban smoking.)
But we don’t get together and share information, or tout clean-air restaurants in a way that gets a movement going, and demonstrates to investors that they should open more such establishments.
It seems like the math is there. Only about a fourth of all adults smoke, yet they seem to rule the world when you walk into any place where they are allowed to do their thing. While some nonsmokers don’t mind the smoke, I would wager that most nonsmokers would choose the place with the clean air if given a choice. So why hasn’t the market met that demand? I can only think the demand hasn’t made itself obvious enough.
And how about bars? I’m not what you’d call a bar-hopper, nor do I recommend it to anyone else. But where else can you go to hear live music in an intimate setting? You pretty much have to go to a place where drinks are served, and those places are always unpleasantly smoky.
One of my colleagues suggested this morning (obviously, from these two references, I brought up the subject) that the subset of smokers and the subset of drinkers correlate. I admit they may overlap (I even know of some people who only smoke when they drink), but there are an awful lot more of us who would enjoy a pint of draft (and in my case, no more) while listening to a good combo play a set, and would appreciate being able to breathe while doing so.
Of course, I’m not the type that bars would make a lot of money from. I would only want the one pint, I would probably only stay for a few songs, and I would only do any of this on rare occasion — such as, when I know someone in the band. I can’t imagine being a "regular" at any nightspot. I like to stay home and read too much — if I ever get the time to do that.
Maybe the subsets of smokers and heavy drinkers do correlate. Maybe bars depend financially on all-around addictive personalities. If so, that’s depressing.
If not, my question remains: Why haven’t I ever been in a smoke-free bar?
Related Posts
Looks like there is not enough demand for non-smoking bars and restaurants by paying customers.
As with other socialist programs, the advocates get the government to impose by force solutions which the market deems of no value.
Lee has a problem with reading comprehension, doesn’t he?
As a music addict,there are many shows in bars/clubs that I don’t attend for this very reason.The last such show was a Ken Vandermark performance that was incredible.Fortunately, it was not very crowded.But the bartenders obviuosly didn’t care that I bought only one beer.Getting back to the “sin” taxes,I haven’t heard any complaints about the fact that SC has,I believe,the third highest beer taxes in the US.Go figure.
I’d certainly go out more often if I didn’t have to think about coming home and washing the nasty smoke smell out of my hair and drying my hair before I go to bed. And taking my clothes to the dry cleaners the next day. And I have friends who feel the same way. There just aren’t any places around here that are truly smoke-free.
Brad asked why he hadn’t been in a non-smoking bar. Answer: Because he cannot find one.
Why? There is not enough demand by customers.
That means that those demanding smoke-free bars and restaurants are an insignificant number of patrons of those establishments. That is why they try to use political force to impose their morality on the rest of society.
Have always wondered why smoking and cigarettes, etc., aren’t handled the same way as alcohol. Only sold at certain places and controlled by the government. Only used at certain places and controlled by the government. After all, tobacco is a legal product and hasn’t, so far, been criminalized. (Prohibition didn’t work all that well).
Businesses could decide if they wanted to be smokeless or not, and take the results. You would think that it would work out that 25% of “places” would end up for smoking and the other 75% would be smoke free. And, of course, no smoking in public just as for drinking.
I have been in smoke-free restaurants where the waitresses spend their breaks out on the back steps of the kitchen puffing away. So they carry the tobacco odor anyway. How do you legislate against that? I have to say my biggest pet peeve is when people blow their noses, and I mean like sounding the trumpet, in the midst of other diners. That about destroys any enjoyment of dining. Can we have a law against that too?
Then you have the cell phone junkies, who sit in a nice restaurant with calls buzzing one after the other, and then they yell into the tiny speaker so that people 50 feet away can hear the entire conversation. Where is our law against that? Then you have the laugher types, who would burst your eardrums with a raucous scream of laughter, when you simply wanted a nice, quiet, and peaceful dinner out. Where oh where is our government at when we need more laws to protect us from injury? On second thought, I would prefer the free market place to resolve all of these issues.
Dave misses the point entirely, since the point of my post is to wonder why the market hasn’t addressed this situation. That just doesn’t make sense. I ask folks to help me make sense of it, and I get libertarian rants.
For his part, Lee still assumes that the market is rational. Well, it may try to be rational, but it’s often blind to opportunity. I’m asserting that there’s an obvious demand here (note the comments above by kc and bill), and the market hasn’t picked up on it.
I have to say, my eyes have indeed been opened by the last few years in Knight Ridder. That company, and therefore The State, and I, have been buffeted about considerably by the fact the market often misses obvious facts right in front of it.
Poor Gary Pruitt. He executes one of the steals of all time, picking up KR for a song, and his stock keeps going down. And poor me, since the little bit of KR stock I own is now tied to the McClatchy stock price.
If the thought is that 75% of the people want smoke free environments and feel the ‘demand’ is there, then wouldn’t that sound like an excellent opportunity for a great business venture?
So the question becomes why isn’t that happening? Answer: The demand isn’t what it appears to be.
While on the subject of offensive odors and unhealthy environmens, lets ban kids, perfume and cell phones.
Dave,
Sounds like you should just call for some take-out.
From the Smoke Free USA site
These states ban smoking in restaurants and bars: Calfornia, Delaware, New York, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey (casinos exempted), Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington. Montana banned smoking in restaurants – bars exempt till 2009. South Dakota had a ban – status unsure. In January 2006 the Territory of Puerto Rico banned smoking in the workplace, including bars and casinos. Smoking in restaurants is banned in a number of cities and counties in other states, but is still common.
So things are slowly changing,and I can’t wait to go to Connecticut to see Tim Berne(great sax player)later this month
for my first smoke-free club concert!
Isn’t it great that the market is so efficient that there couldn’t possibly be a demand that hasn’t been met yet?
You know, if only everyone realized that, we could do away with the patent office. Why try to invent something? If there were a demand for it, it would have been invented and marketed already, right?
And Bill Gates wouldn’t be so absurdly wealthy if he had just said, “Software for personal computers? Are you kidding? If there were a demand for personal computers, everybody would already have one.”
Why is it that when you try to discuss the market, libertarians — who are supposedly all about the market — keep dismissing the subject and talking about banning things?
Dave and Lee,
As libertarian folk,don’t you think people should have the freedom to BREATHE.People can smoke all they want,but they don’t have the right to make me breathe it…but,in your bizarro world,I guess that’s the price I have to pay for “freedom”.
What makes people think they need the government to ban smoking restaurants and bars?
Answer: Most customers don’t mind smoking. They are able to handle offensive smoke on a personal basis. The proprietors are able to create the environment that most customers want.
The problem is the tiny minority that wants to outlaw smoking in the 100,000 places they will never visit, because they lack th e numbers to demand it as clientele, and lack the social skills to politely ask someone to refrain from smoking, or to ask for a table in a non-smoking section.
I don’t just assume that the market is rational. I assume that most customers are rational and see a market that is a result of the lack of a paying clientele for smoke-free dining and drinking establishments. I think the problem here is that the moralists are not only closed-minded and intolerant of other lifestyles, but too unversed in basic economic theory to engage in a discussion.
BRICK WALL
Still again, what’s wrong with letting restaurants and any other BUSINESSES DECIDE if they want to be smoke free or not, and let public participation be the deciding factor in whether the business succeeds or not? Sorta like the breast feeding in public “law”. Should have been decided by individual businesses.
I didn’t say there was a 75% demand for nonsmoking places. I said 75% of people are nonsmokers. Also, nonsmokers do mind VERY STRONGLY if a smoker lights up near them. I’ve had them move to other tables. Or, they get huffy, and choke and gag and wave their hands in front of their noses.
By the way, can anyone tell me the purpose of this blog site?
I think it’s for expressing opinions,as you have just done quite well.
Mr. Gantt:
I think you will find that some of us favor letting businesses decide what to serve their customers, and a few intolerant statists who would like to dictate the smoking, menu and decor, even for all the places they will never patronize.
Restaurants and pubs have been around a lot longer than the personal computer, and so far, not many have seen much promise in a business model catering to such a tiny minority. That’s why you don’t see the little dictators forming a company and investing their money to build such a restaurant or pub.
OK, I’m not going to bother saying for the umpteenth time what should be obvious — that I was talking about the market, NOT government, and was simply wondering why the market has produced smokefree restaurants, but not bars. Simple enough, you would think, but NOOOOO…
Let’s just zero in on this: Lee’s assertion that nonsmokers don’t mind smoke, and that those who do are “such a tiny minority.”
Anyone? Please? And Spencer, don’t go away; we need you here, man. What do you mean, what is the purpose of the blog? It’s for reason to have its chance to win out over unreason. So don’t go away. You’re an Unparty man, aren’t you? So we need you.
Where is your journalist training? Go ask some bar owners about the differences in the clientele, and why they don’t build a non-smoking bar.
Smokefree Live Music and Jazz Clubs
Blues Alley Jazz Supper Club, Washington, DC
“The nation’s finest jazz and super club” – New York Times
Blues Alley is the nation’s oldest continuing jazz supper club. Artists such as Dizzy Gillespie, Sarah Vaughan, Nancy Wilson, Grover Washington Jr., Ramsey Lewis, Charlie Byrd, Maynard Ferguson and Eva Cassidy have performed in this small intimate setting.
The Jazz Factory, Louisville, KY
The Jazz Factory is Louisville’s premier venue for live, world-class jazz performed in an intimate club setting and “for the health and comfort of our patrons, staff and musicians, The Jazz Factory maintains a smoke-free environment. (The only thing that smokes is the music!)”
TC’s Hi-Class Smoke-Free Jazz and Funk Dance Lounge, Gainesville, FL
TC’s offers musicians and club-goers in Florida the opportunity to dance all night long in a smokefree nightclub.
Joe Segal’s Jazz Showcase
“Joe Segal’s has been the place to come in Chicago for classic jazz.” – Center Stage
Joe Segal’s is celebrating its 50th Anniversary this year.
59 West Grand, Chicago, IL
Tel: (312) 670-2473
Wild Buffalo’s, Bellingham, WA
Declared to be the “Best in live music and dancing”, Wild Buffalo’s books local and national acts, blues, R&B, funk, soul, worldbeat, folk rock, classic rock and roll, Celtic rock, and Latin Salsa.
Gilly’s, Dayton, OH
“Everybody is extremely excited about it. We’ve had three shows (since going smoke-free) and no problems.”
132 S. Jefferson Street
Dayton, OH 45402
(937) 228-8414
Cat’s Cradle, Carrboro, NC
A world famous live music venue, bringing the finest musical acts to Chapel Hill and Carrboro for over thirty years, the Cat’s Cradle is a 600-capacity rock club that has played host to Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Sonic Youth.
“For the health of our employees and other patrons, the Cat’s Cradle is now a smokefree club. Although one of the Driveby Truckers made a joke when they played here: ‘A North Carolina club banning smoking, that’s like public transportation in Detroit.’ But it’s been well-accepted, and I feel confident it will book attendance.” – Frank Health, Owner of Cat’s Cradle
Dimitriou’s Jazz Alley, Seattle, WA
Entertaining internationally renowned jazz musicians for over twenty years, Jazz Alley was recently picked as both the Editor’s Choice and Audience Choice for Seattle’s Best Jazz club by Citysearch Seattle. In 2002, DownBeat Magazine voted Jazz Alley as one of the top 100 jazz clubs in the world. In years past we have also been voted “Best Jazz Club” by the Seattle Weekly.
“All [workers, patrons, and musicians] love that we are smoke free… We made that rule for all the obvious reasons.”
Jazz Alley, Little Rock, AR
Little Rock music promoter Sean Porch is reopening Jazz Alley as a 100% smokefree music club and bar – the only one in the city. Jazz Alley will be located inside the Quapaw Tower on 700 E. Ninth St. Expect its doors to reopen in late July 2005.
Watertown, Seattle, WA
“Best Dance Club of 2004” — Citysearch.
On August 5th, club owner Keith Robbins will hold an “ash-kicking” party for the pubic at Watertown, declaring itself Seattle’s first and forever smokefree dance club.
106 1st Ave N
Seattle, WA 98109
(206) 284-5003
Nectar, Seattle, WA
412 N. 36th Street
Seattle, WA 98103
(206) 632-2020
See Sound Lounge, Seattle, WA
115 Blanchard St Belltown
Seattle, WA
(206) 374-3733
Bacchus Restaurant, Vancouver, WA
“Being the only smoke-free venue featuring live music in the metro area, we are extremely popular, especially on Friday and Saturday nights. A smoke-free environment fits with the entertainment and fine dining we offer at Bacchus,” says owner Lloyd Taylor.
The Ozone, Fox Valley, WI
Fox Valley’s premier smokefree club!
“What can we say… ‘It’s Grooby Baby!’ Retro is hot and you’re guaranteed a smashing good time. Whether you “Shake Your Booty” on the dance floor or simply hang out in our pad, there’s no question this is a happening kind of place.” — Fox Cities of Wisconsin “Night Life” Review
(920) 738-5603
UpStarCrow Jazz and Blues Bistro, Newport, KY
Aura, Portland, OR
Tillicum Club, Portland, OR
“Your favorite neighborhood bar and restaurant is now non smoking!”
The Tillicum Club features the best in live entertainment 5 nights a week hosting the best bands in the Portland area. No cover changes.
Doug Fir Lounge, Portland, OR
Wilf’s Restaurant and Piano Bar, Portland, OR
Sixth year for the “Best of Portland Guide” 2002
Evening Muse, Atlanta, GA
The Vaudeville Mews
212 4th St.
Des Moines, IA
(515) 243-3270
World Cafe Live
“Best New Music Venue” & “Best Kids Concert Series” — Philadelphia Magazine, August 2005
3025 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104
(215) 222-1400
The Music Hall
An alcohol and drug free live music venue.
2147 N. College Ave
Fayetteville, AR
McFoster’s Natural Kind Cafe
302 S 38th Street
Omaha, NE 68131
(402) 345-7477
Offering live music every night!
Zoo Bar
Being a world famous blues and jazz bar, many of the great ones have played here. If you are a hot up-and-coming musician and/or a classic, click here to book a gig at the Zoo Bar.
136 North 14th Street
Lincoln, NE 68508
(402) 435-8754
(402) 475-3094 (fax)
info@zoobar.com
Mary’s Place
Lincoln’s premier dance and entertainment club!
1920 West ‘O’ St.
Lincoln, NE 68528
(402) 434-3335
Hours:
Tuesday-Saturday 3pm-1am
Closed Sunday-Monday
The Depot
“I think the number one thing for non-smoking is the diversity of people that we want to have come into the venue. People who want to come in and enjoy a great show and not have to put up with cigarette smoke.” — Mark Wheadon, General Manager, The Depot.
400 W South Temple- At The Gateway
Salt Lake City, UT 84103
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The above list demonstrates that there is a market for tobacco-free clubs and bars, that there is no need for The State to impose a smoking ban or rules on all of the others.
But that is not good enough for the moralists. They want to sit at home and know no one else can choose to be around tobacco smoke, or not.
Too bad we can’t have New York laws, Brad. I made the mistake of asking for a table in non-smoking, the last time we were up there, and the lady looked at me with a smirk — “you’re not from here, are you?”
Is it the market, or is it that the 75% of us who want to be free of carcinogens in the air are too cowardly to raise much of a voice? My wife gets a headache as soon as she even smells smoke. Try travelling somewhere on Christmas day — the only thing open is a Waffle House, and they’re lethal.
We’re too comfortable, Brad. We don’t put fire under the seats of our legislators, I think because too many of us are home watching 24.
I must have been asleep last night, because I fell into the same trap that most of the rest of us did.
But I’m still not sure that the market alone will take care of it; I’m just not sure why. Why did they have to legislate in New York what most people want anyway? I presume that some things become so entrenched in society that the only way to root them out quickly is to pass legislation and protect the majority.
Until, of course, they use cross the line from physical health risks to moral choices. I’m afraid that an attempt will be made, sooner or later, to legislate evangelicals out of existence, if they don’t accept the consensus of the majority, e.g. macroevolution. Some people’s posts here almost seem to suggest that. And so the persecution will begin in earnest, some of it deserved, but some of it undeserved.
As a smoker (pipe), I’ve never felt inconvenienced by not being able to smoke in a restaurant. I suspect it’s just force of habit that so few restaurants in this area haven’t gone completely smoke-free. Hey, if Ireland can do it and still have the pubs survive, so can South Carolina.
You can have New York style laws … just go to New York. They will restrict a lot of your other activities, too.
Of course, you could ban eating in pubs and there would still be pubs. That doesn’t prove that it is right, or smart to have such laws.
The Sunday editorial and opinion column switched to a new Big Lie: that the huge tax increase on cigarettes in the national settlement was to pay for past illnesses, not future ones.
Yet editorials and news articles at the time of the settlement claimed that the money was to pay for treatments for all smoker-related illnesses, 20 years into the future.
Then Governor Hodges and the legislature sold the 20-year annunity for a deep discount in order to divert the money from its touted purpose and into vote-buying pay raises for teachers and other government employees.
The current cigarette tax campaign is another pack of lies, using the children as pawns in a scheme to grab more money for junk programs.
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