Michael Rodgers, longtime correspondent here and founder of the Take Down The Flag blog, wrote this to me today, and I share it with you:
Dear Brad,
I am writing for two reasons: to point out some common things people often say that are wrong and to describe the stunning lack of leadership from our state government on this issue.First, the things that are wrong:
1) Our issue in SC is just like the issue in Mississippi or Georgia. Wrong, because our issue in South Carolina is about the third flag we fly, not about our state flag.
2) The 2/3 vote requirement for this issue is insurmountable. Wrong for two reasons:a. The 2/3 requirement is a legislative hurdle can be taken out of the way with a simple majority (1/2). Then a simple majority would be able to change rest of the law.
b. Our state government votes 2/3 all the time when they override Gov. Sanford’s veto, so in fact 2/3 routinely occurs.3) No one in our state legislature is interested in resolving this issue. Wrong, because H-3588, a bill to resolve this issue, has seven sponsors. (And as a personal opinion, I think H-3588 completes the compromise).
4) This issue is between flag supporters, who are happy, and flag opponents, who are unhappy. Wrong for four reasons:a. The issue is the FLYING of a third flag from Statehouse grounds, so the camps are flag flying supporters and flag flying opponents.
b. Flag supporters are unhappy – why else would they get so worked up all the time about this issue?
c. This issue is between the leaders of our state government, who are happy, and South Carolinians, who are unhappy.
d. The issue is actually the story (the why!) we tell when we fly or when we don’t fly the flag. (And as a personal opinion, H-3588 provides a completely consistent clarification of the story of the compromise of 2000).5) This issue is not worth our time to resolve. Wrong because this issue is
a. a defining issue for our state,
b. tearing our state apart, and
c. diminishing our state’s stature.Second, the stunning lack of leadership.
http://www.greenvilleonline.com/
Gov. Mark Sanford said, "Everybody has a different perspective. It is a deeply dividing and complex issue that we’re not going to try and open and re-examine. Somebody is going to have to place a tremendous amount of political capital to pry open a compromise. This administration is not going to be doing that."
Our state government is flying the Confederate flag, and this action causes people to react viscerally. And when I say people, I am concurring with Gov. Sanford’s grouping: It’s a deeply dividing issue that affects everybody.
Our state government is flying the Confederate flag, and this action causes people to have enormous confusion as to the reason for this action. And when I say people, I am concurring with Gov. Sanford’s grouping: Everybody has a different perspective.
Our state government is causing deep division that confuses everybody, and what does Gov. Sanford propose to do about it? Nothing.
Gov. Sanford says that this simple issue is too complex for him to re-examine. He says what he always says, which is if we’re going to do anything, we’ve got to throw out everything we’ve been given and start fresh — new constitution, new government structure, new approach to property taxes, new approach to education, etc. No wonder he doesn’t have the political capital to spare for this issue!
I say that we can solve this issue by respecting the compromise and by clarifying the confusion. Our state government made a compromise in 2000, where they decided a lot of things under a lot of pressure. By and large, they did a fantastic job, under the circumstances.
One part of this compromise, the flying of the Confederate flag from Statehouse grounds, is deeply dividing everybody because everybody has a different perspective on this action. We can focus on solving this last remaining issue because the complex parts of this issue have already been solved.
We can solve this last remaining issue, the simple one, with H-3588. This bill says that confusions about racism and sovereignty can be resolved by flying our state flag in place of the Confederate flag. This bill says that confusions about respect for heritage can be resolved by commemorating Confederate Memorial Day every year by flying the Confederate flag at the flagpole where it is now.
H-3588 respects the compromise of 2000 by honoring the Confederate Soldier Monument, Confederate Memorial Day, and the Confederate flag. H-3588 clarifies the message about why our state honors the Confederate flag: because we respect the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers and not for any other reason.
Because H-3588 respects the compromise and clarifies the confusion, H-3588 completes the compromise. A leader can easily solve this problem. Who’s going to step up to the plate? The governor’s mansion awaits.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
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Resoliving what issue? There is no issue for 99.9% of South Carolinians.
Lee,
Will you cite the source for your statistic? It sounds made up. And what does “resoliving” mean?
Lee’s right for a once. This issue has been resolved. Brad can’t even mention the horror of Phil Gramm yet he can find time for this utter non-issue.
Thanks, bud.
We have a lot more important issues without a handful of people trying to create quarrels and undo compromises.
I personally thought the compromise was pretty reasonable (as long as we have a confederate memorial on the grounds it seems like an appropriate thing to put there).
I think it would be nice though to have a plaque next to the flag that said something like “This flag flies for the the eternal honor of the brave men and women of SC who gave their lives in defense of their state. It also flies to recall the eternal shame of their leaders who began a war to defend an evil cause and of those citizens who later flew it as a symbol of oppression.”
Of course it wouldn’t make some on either extreme happy (those who can’t admit that most of those fighting weren’t fighting for slavery, and those who haven’t read the South Carolina Secession Declaration or ever seen pictures of the flag being flown by racists).
I was just thinking yesterday about writing The State about this very issue. A high school classmate of mine is now the new head of the national NAACP. He’s a good guy, very smart, and I had high hopes he would move on from the flag and bike week and focus on issues that really affect the quality of life for African-Americans in SC. So I was really disappointed to hear about the NAACP’s renewed anti-flag vigor.
I don’t have the resources to talk to the people across the state whom the NAACP claims to represent and see what they really think about the flag. But The State does. I would really, really like to know if conventional wisdom is mistaken, and getting that flag off Statehouse grounds truly is a pressing issue. Or, are other issues like education, healthcare, and pockets of endemic racism and racial inequality more important?
While it is accurate to say most fighting for the South didn’t own slaves, to a man, they were all fighting for slavery.
A soldier fights for his unit and for his buddies and for his sense of honor. A soldier fights for the person to his left and for the person to his right and for the person who went on ahead and for the person who didn’t come back.
Susanna, the problem is that the Confederate flag symbolizes to so many the unequal education, inequalities in health care, and the racism that they have had to endure for so long. It was hijacked by the KKK and their ilk, without anyone standing up and demanding the symbol of their noble heritage back. When you see it waved proudly as a cross burns in your neighborhood (or your yard) you tend to develop a negative attitude about it. If we’ve got to keep it on the Statehouse grounds, can’t we at least move it to the Tillman statue?
It amazes me how many people have their head in the sand and do not realize what a liability the confederate flag monument is to this state. It’s not just about somebody’s ancestor’s glorious past. It’s also about how that flag was shoved in so many people’s faces as a warning to stay in their place. SC is a laughing stock because of this. Ever wonder why we don’t get the really big high tech companies to come here? Why on earth would anybody want to bring bright and creative people to a state where people can’t see past their ancestor’s point of view.
Wishing that the Confederate flag will go away will never change history. It’s part of our heritage–for all of us–and you can never make it disappear…no matter how hard you try. And that’s what this is REALLY about: Making it go away. It’s off of the top of the State House and in a memorial. That was the compromise… Can we please move on?
It’s amazing that the NAACP and many of you haven’t taken the time to learn one iota of history. Slavery was simply a war tactic used by the Lincoln admin.to try and drum up insurection.He wanted to ship all blacks to an island and stated that he wouldn’t free the first slave if the union of states could be resolved.As far as the boycott goes…Feel Free..When I boycott a store I dont go there…so Let the NAACP and all their followers boycott SC….LEAVE!! Dont stay here…dont contribute to the economy…go to another state where they dont fly the soldiers flag proudly. Go pump your cash into their economies with your head held high…I promise…no-one will beg you to come back.
“Slavery was simply a war tactic used by the Lincoln admin.to try and drum up insurection.”
So that’s why the entire articles of seccession deal with nothing besides slavery? And why the racists following the war commonly used the flag as a symbol of their cause? [Note, that I made no argument as to what Lincoln would have done if the South would have just let the North not return run-aways and the other things they said they seceeded over.]
Please people. We’ve got so many real problems in this state (general ignorance,inadequate education, abysmally stupidelected officials) that it is beyond belief that the NAACP would even botherabout the battle flag. I get oppositionto the lottery, I get being upset at statetroopers that beat the sh** out of presumedinnocent dirtbags, but the battle flag?I guess drumming up money over non-issuesbeats having to find a real job.
Michael Rodgers and a few others here will continue to bury their head in the sand instead of facing real facts. Two flags fly from the seat of Government in SC now as a result of the compromise the US and SC flag (incidentally the SC Flag was adopted by the “Sovereign State of South Carolina” in January 1861, a real falg of rebellion!) and moved an entirely different flag to a historically appropriate location on the grounds of the State House. In addition the compromise protected in perpetuity all historical monuments in SC.
Now some here want to talk about the Klan and the Confederate Flag, well I propose you find a single image with the flag that fly’s from the soldiers monument behing a klansman. On the other hand, you will find hundreds of pictures with the flag that flies from the top of the dome and Birth of a Nation actually gives us the opportunity to see it on film.
Find me records of slave ships on the middle passage that were flagged with the flag that flies from the Soldiers Monument. I can find you plenty of vessels flagged with a flag like the one at the top of the dome (fewer stars but the same flag!)
Rodger’s logic is faulty and he fails the history lessons on the American Civil War and the United States during that time frame. We cannot and must not impose our modern views on a people from nearly 150 years ago without an attempt to understand the times, values, norms and mores.
Do we demand the removal of the Pope and Catholicism because of the Inquisition? Spain’s flag should be banned because of the crimes committed on the indigenous peoples of Mezo America!
Take a look at the 7 sponsors of the Hose Bill Rodger’s is pushing – I don’t think you will be surprised that they are all young Black men. They have every right to push this bill and i am glad they have the opportunity to do so but don’t play this off like there is bi-partisan support for this bill.
There are plenty of problems in Sc that we need to fix, the flag is not one until we allow them to make it one – again. This horse is dead and buried and the stink had even begun to wear off. Noe Rodgers wants to see his name in the news. Please find another Liberal Cause to support that really can have a real, positive impact on the people of SC, not just another talking point.
As long as the flag flies on the state house grounds it will be associated with the government of this state. It belongs in a museum where it can be displayed in a setting describing its glorious and inglorious history.
People can say the horse is dead, but as long as it is fodder for late night comedians and out of state editorials, it’s not really as dead as some say.
Haven’t been on this site in a couple of years, and for good reason. It’s still pure garbage.
Summary of Facts not Fluff’s argument: The falg that fly’s behing the soldiers monument is just swell; reject the Sc Hose Bill that Rodger’s is pushing noe!
Lee is 100% correct. I left Columbia in 1998 and have been back for about a year. When I was in Raleigh, DC and Miami I was asked lots of questions about SC. Not one person ever asked me about the flag. Not one. Should the NAACP be successful in getting it removed, I won’t lose any sleep. Likewise, should it ever be placed back up on the dome, I won’t lose any sleep. BTW, how come no one ever asks Fritz why it was flown on top of the State House anyway, since he was the Governor who signed the bill that put it on top of the dome in the first place?
For some reason, South Carolinians seem to have kept a chip on their shoulders about the Civil War era while our neighbors to the north and to the south have moved beyond this issue. The Confederate Battle Flag flying on the State House grounds is the most visible edification of this attitude and it is holding our state back from reaching its economic potential.
Until we rid ourselves of these state-sponsored reminders of a failed era, we will never reach our potential as a state and that is a darn shame. South Carolina is such a beautiful state and many wonderful people reside here, so why do we let that inept State Legislature of ours keep us mired in the dark ages? It is time to clean house of the dinosaurs that keep us chained to the past and fill the State House with leaders who will bring us into the 21st century. Since Governor Sanford and the current State Legislature are not willing to spend political capital to solve issues that affect the state, we need to elect individuals that will.
This is primarily an issue outsiders get worked up about. As a sovereign State, we should decide this matter on our own without anyone else butting in. The effort to pull down our statues, take down our flags, re-write our history books, flood TV with anti-Southern propaganda, etc. is nothing short of cultural genocide against us as a unique culture. I for one have had enough.
Keep our flag – get rid of the traitors.
Just returned last week from a vacation at Ocean Lakes campground in Myrtle Beach. Enjoyed the week – until the last 2 days. Seems a cadre of youthful blacks also decided to vacation there as well. Cruising around in thier tricked out neon glowing truck with extremely loud rap BOOM BOOM BOOM shattered the peaceful silence until well after 12am both evenings. If a boycott would keep such disrespect out of the peaceful quiet of precious family time I am all for it.
KevinM,
Wasn’t the ‘slavery’ issue (lack of FedGov enforcement of US Laws on the subject) mentioned in like, just 7 of the 13 secession documents. The Indian Nations didn’t use that language either in thier joining the Confederacy.
Wasn’t there about 2 months of peace between the legal secession of the original 7 southern states and Lincoln’s illegal call for 75,000 troops to invade a foriegn country – which led to the other 6 states pulling out.
Tell me again the reasons Lincoln gave to invade, how many times the ‘abolition of slavery’ was used as a war cry by the US Govt in 1861.
Please either you, Mr. Rodgers or Mr. Warthen provide a link or actual photo showing linkage between the square Battleflag of the Army of Northern Virginia flown at the SC Soldier’s Monument and ANY hate group.
Could anyone give a serious explaination as to why Lincoln supported slavery forever via the Corwin Amendment and his Emancipation Proclamation didn’t free a single slave where he presided over.
Lee, Billy, Facts not Fluff, Robert, and others,
Not good enough. Mark Sanford has stipulated correctly that the people (everybody) aren’t happy. JimT has shown leadership on this issue, by saying that South Carolina deserves more than
“It’s complicated.”
“It doesn’t bother me.”
“No one mentions it to me except during elections.”
“No one mentions it to me except during March Madness.”
Let’s put it another way. If we’re not celebrating the “compromise,” then we’re not happy. If no one from out of state asks you about the result of 50 years of negotiation that dominated the state for more than 5 years, then the result apparently is not worth celebrating.
South Carolina is a brand. If everybody (anybody!) was happy, truly happy, then the fact that SC is the only state in the USA that flies the Confederate flag would be on page 1 of every travel brochure. Page 1.
H-3588 lets us commemorate the Confederate part of our history in a way that can go on page 1 of our travel brochures.
Randy Burbage, South Carolina division commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans said, “They (NAACP) want me to respect their heritage, and yet they won’t respect mine.”
Offer made and offer accepted. Deal. Deal. Done and done. It’s win-win. H-3588 respects the SCV’s heritage. The ball is in the legislature’s court. The sponsors of H-3588 have taken Mr. Burbage up on his offer.
So Lee, et al., your old, tired, and usually smug and facetious arguments won’t cut it anymore. You have to try to prove that H-3588 doesn’t respect “heritage.” You have to try to say that the state flag of South Carolina was not revered by our Confederate soldiers. You have to try to say that nobody from the heritage crowd would want to put the state of SC’s official commemoration ceremony of Confederate Memorial Day on Page 1 of our official travel brochure.
You will not be able to persuade anybody with those arguments, but good luck, if you’re so motivated.
Like we said all along. Give them an inch and they will want a mile. Never should have brought it down in the first place !!
One must wonder how much damage the NAACP does to race relations. In my opinion, they are one of the top reasons for keeping racism alive. They focus on issues that are about blacks “feelings” and aim to create “white shame” (it doesn’t work, BTW)…not about issues that could truly pave the way for blacks to have a better life. With all the issues facing blacks here in South Carolina..high drop out rates, black-on-black crime, teen pregnancy, gangs (one could go on and on), the NAACP wants to focus on a FLAG???? It’s time the media had the guts to call the NAACP out and question why they don’t take action to make changes to behaviors WITHIN the black communities that almost guarantee failure to thrive. But I’ll look for the media to negatively portray the NAACP when I see the flying donkeys.
Facts Not Fluff argues that Michael Rodgers “fails the history lessons on the American Civil War and the United States during that time frame.” Not only is this claim without basis – Rodgers’ post does not mention the Civil War period – but it also misses the mark. What is really important here is that flying the Confederate flag on Statehouse grounds fails a cost-benefit analysis. (Ron Aiken has documented some of the costs – $50 million – of flying the flag on Statehouse grounds.) There are certainly more cost-effective ways to honor the Confederate soldiers, and we should be considering all reasonable options. The lack of empathy that flag supporters show towards those who disagree with them on this issue makes me wonder if they really have the ability to empathize with the Confederate soldiers. I question what their true motives are.
Let me explain this for those who are too slow to get it themselves:
The NAACP boycott costs South Carolina millions.
The NAACP boycott costs the NAACP nothing.
H-3588 costs South Carolina nothing.
Whether you agree or disagree with the NAACP, they hold the cards. Our political “leaders” (and I use the term loosely) don’t seem to get this.
Mr Rodgers,
You sure are hung up on the flag removal bill. I can appreciate what you are attempting to do, and understand your position, but would suggest let sleeping dogs lie.
Your trust in the honor of either the Govt or the NAACP to stick to anything they say is misplaced. I know firsthand never to trust either. Ex Ga. Gov. Barnes blatantly lied to get the Ga Flag changed.
The SC NAACP says they “respect” private property and have ‘no problem’ with such flag displays on private property. In the real world, that issue should not even have to mentioned – as it is law. HOWEVER…
The NAACP opposed a private military service to Confederate POWs at Camp Butler in Illinois, and got Obama to write a letter to the Governor to halt the ceremony.
The NAACP tried to force the Hillsborogh County (Tampa) commission to remove a Confederate flag from a privatly owned Memorial Park.
The NAACP forced a proposed musical show of the “Dukes of Hazzard” starring John Schneider and Tom Wopat to cancel in Cincinnati.
The NAACP forced removal of a 2nd National Confederate flag from a Augusta Ga park, which was part of a historic flags display.
The NAACP forced the removal of the plaques from the Texas Supreme Court Bldg, which was built with Confederate money. The plaques had a glowing quote about Texas soldiers by General Lee.
The NAACP opposed the erection of a marker on private property to the State of Delaware Confederate soldiers.
…And on and on it goes. The hate group commonly referred to as the NAACP is hypocritical, racist, biased, and do not wish to follow the laws of society.
The current push by and mentality of those NAACP people can be seen in this paragraph by Fox News Reporter Orlanano Salinas, from another unrelated story about a flag display in Florida:
http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/06/16/controversial-confederate-flag-raising-ceremony/
“The local chapter of the NAACP has condemned (the flag raising event). Calling it racist, and an abomination to millions of Americans, both African American and Caucasian . I was told it would not talk anymore to the media about this issue, saying it would only bring more publicity to the Sons of Confederate Veterans. I pushed a little more, and was told the national NAACP, had given orders to the local chapter, to no longer talk to the press, saying it would only hurt Senator Barack Obama, the presumed Democrat presidential nominee, “who needs the votes of those kinds of people in Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia, and Ohio.” I asked “What do you mean those kinds of people?” His response- ‘’You know what i mean.’’
There is a good juicy news story for ya, Mr Warthen!
http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/jul/19/call_state_boycott_mean_spirited_attack48104/
The Rev. Joe Darby, vice president of the Charleston branch of the NAACP, said the organization thinks it is every person’s right to celebrate their own heritage … people can pay tribute to their heritage in any number of ways, including by flying the flag on private property, displaying bumper stickers or wearing T-shirts, he said.
Compare these statements to the above facts
The civil war was a battle for states rights -slavery was but a small issue.We can see now that state rights are again being threatened by too much fed government control.The flag flap by the naacp is another cover up to hide the high crime rate of the black race.Check all the crime reports about 84% non-white.This is called projecting-when your are wrong you try to turn things somewhere else-hence the flag flap.The naacp is racist and has fallen far from it’s orginal roots.It is on it’s way out and the flag is great advertisement for free to help raise funds.In closing fix your own problems and leave us alone.
Complete the compromise? What a load of crock! The NAACP wanted the flag off the capitol dome. In the spirit of compromise – look the word up if you need to – it was removed from the dome and placed at the Confederate Memorial… the compromise has been completed.. Just because the NAACP defines compromise as:
Pronunciation:
\ˈkäm-prə-ˌmīz\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, mutual promise to abide by an arbiter’s decision (as long as the arbiter does what the NAACP wants), from Anglo-French compromisse, from Latin compromissum, from neuter of compromissus, past participle of compromittere to promise mutually, from com- + promittere to promise — more at promise
Date:
15th century
1 a: settlement of differences by arbitration or by consent reached by mutual concessions (as long as all concessions are made by the supporters of the flag and do not conflict with the NAACP desires) b: something intermediate between or blending qualities of two different things (as long as the blending is the mix determined by the NAACP)
….does not make it the right definition. One flag flying at a memorial… Mississippi flies it over every state building and Georgia – are you people so stupid as to not recognize how close the current state flag of GA is to the First National Flag of the Confederacy – the actual Stars and Bars?
Abby,
You stated:
“The lack of empathy that flag supporters show towards those who disagree with them on this issue makes me wonder if they really have the ability to empathize with the Confederate soldiers. I question what their true motives are.”
Perhaps there is no other motive on behalf of the “flag supporters” than to say it is time to stop the NAACP political power wielding. At what point do the people (and the government) stand up and refuse to be held hostage by the whims of the NAACP’s witch hunts? It’s a flag today..what will it be tomorrow..confederate historical markers? Does removing the flag do anything to help the black community? No. Does it alter history? No. It does nothing but put another notch in the NAACP power belt. What South Carolina needs is educated citizens and lower crime statistics. These two factors would attract corporations to locate and invest here and benefit all races. The NAACP’s preoccupation with a stupid scrap of cloth does NOTHING to promote the “advancement of colored people”.
The battle was not about slavery, just another lie told by good old abe lincoln, it was about a choice and against northern rule, get over it people, whites and blacks both fought side by side, put it back where it belongs on top of the state house and tell the naacp to go to Hell.
What is now often called “The Confederate Flag” or “The Confederate Battle Flag” (actually a combination of the Battle Flag’s colors with the Second Navy Jack’s design), despite its never having historically represented the CSA as a nation. The actual “Stars and Bars” is the First National Flag, which used an entirely different design. This flag doesn’t belong in the statehouse. Please no more excuses without facts.
Perhaps telling a whole group to go to hell might be a little much. Randolph, Darby, Sharpton, Jackson, Bond, Mfume, et al… probably a better tact. The race card wielding extremeists – yes. Please go to hell. I’ll even give them some free hot dogs and marshmallows to help them enjoy thier stay. I am sure there are some well meaning but severely misguided people who are members who have no clue, just filling an empty seat, funding the coffers, and spouting the party line. School would be the place to send them.
Randall,
Yes. Georgians who are aware of such know the current Ga Flag is loosely based on the 1st National. The closest design it resembles is that of the 27th Ga Zachry Rangers. However, it was designed as a method to disenfranchise Ga voters from the issue that got current Ga Gov elected – a fair flag vote as occured in Mississippi.
Anyone notice that Toyota is hyping thier new plant in Mississippi? Perhaps yet more proof that certain flags are not detremental to any business, and that race card bigots only have hot air and mean stares on thier side.
These Negro attacks (funded by Jewish groups thru the NAACP) on the flag, Ben Tillman, and other White Southern icons of our culture, is just simply another pin in the axiom that multi-racial societies have never worked, and will never work. When Whites relinquish control of the societies we have created, we are subsequently exterminated (see Rhodesia, South Africa, and Hispanolia). Unless we Whites regain the stamina and backbone that our forebearers possessed, the same fate awaits us here.
Sorry Abby – Facts not Fluff go for you as well.
How do you distance the Battle Flag from the Civil War? Of course if you choose to do so feel free and then the argument of its removal goes with it – that it represents slavery. of course that argument fails logic as Joe aptly explains in his post about the vexology of the flags.
Aiken’s piece is a bit of fluff as well, implying that if SC caves to outside pressure we automatically get $50 million a year – can I get that guarantee in writing?
And Rodgers poor old tired arguments to Lee(?) don’t cut it either. (Rodgers seems to have a real issue with logic and fact) Lee doesn’t have to prove anything about HB-3588 because it isn’t state law. It is a bill that languishes in the House with support of a small percentages of Legislators. It’s the unhappy consequence of not getting your way and sitting and pouting in the corner. Rodgers has to prove to those that oppose the bill that it meets their objections. He must prove that flying the flag once a year is more respectful than flying it always (maybe the US flag should only fly once a year it that denotes great respect).
Travel brochures again? Do you have that promise in writing guaranteed to happen without that eventually becoming an issue too?
Regardless of what many folks think we South Carolinians are much smarter than you believe. Fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me.
I’d suggest the honorable John C Calhoun’s writing as a start for your research Mr. Rodgers. I’m certain it’s in your “neighborhood.”
“These Negro attacks (funded by Jewish groups thru the NAACP) on the flag, Ben Tillman, and other White Southern icons of our culture, is just simply another pin in the axiom that multi-racial societies have never worked, and will never work. When Whites relinquish control of the societies we have created, we are subsequently exterminated (see Rhodesia, South Africa, and Hispanolia). Unless we Whites regain the stamina and backbone that our forebearers possessed, the same fate awaits us here.
Posted by: Walt Hampton | Jul 19, 2008 12:15:40 PM”
I am stunned, but, tragically, not shocked. My flesh crawls.
The only “states right” that mattered to the secessionsists in SC (also in the 7 other states that left the Union early) was the right to carry their slaves into free states and territories; as if a state could pick itself up and transport its slaves across a state line.
Claudia, yeah, mine, too.
We fly the USA flag year-round from atop the dome because it is our sovereign flag. We fly it in a lot of other places, whenever we want to, and many people choose Independence Day or Flag Day or some other combination of days. When you reserve special things for special days, then you make them more special — and you clarify and protect their meaning.
Absolutely H-3588 will bring more respect to the Confederate soldiers than the current situation. This is because
1) We will commemorate Confederate Memorial Day every year by having well-attended and highly respectful raising and lowering ceremonies for the Confederate flag on the flagpole where it currently flies now. And yes, we will advertise these ceremonies in our travel brochures. If you want it in writing, please feel free to contact your state representatives and amend H-3588 — you have my full support.
2) We will stop confusing everybody about WHY we fly the Confederate flag. Ending the confusion will end the NAACP’s boycott and the NCAA’s ban. The NAACP has correctly and consistently pointed out that flying the Confederate flag atop the dome, in the Chambers, or out in front of the State House is confusing because
a) when Confederate flags (the square flag of the Confederate soldier is clearly connected to the Confederate government because that’s what the Confederate soldiers were fighting for) are flown in the manner that our state government chooses to fly them, they imply sovereignty in a confusing way, and
b) when Confederate flags are flown in the manner that our state government chooses to fly them, they confuse people about our state government’s commitment to represent all South Carolinians.
One part of all the confusion is that racist and secessionist groups currently schedule events on our Statehouse grounds and pretend that the Confederate flag supports them. They schedule such events whenever they want, and we can’t always be there to protect the Confederate flag from such pretension.
If only we could figure out how to protect the Confederate flag, hmm, maybe by treating it special and giving it its own special day to fly. Eureka! That’s it! H-3588!
You argue that people shouldn’t be confused. OK, thanks. That’s nice. But that’s not what our state government should argue. Our government shouldn’t blame the people for misunderstanding their message. What our state government must do is to clarify their message to make it as clear as possible.
This is exactly the problem that Gov. Sanford identified, quite eloquently I might add, but then he decided that he would not be taking any steps to solve the problem. By sponsoring H-3588, seven of our State Representatives have taken a decisive step to solve this problem, to clarify the message, and to protect the Confederate flag.
H-3588 very clearly and very respectfully says that the compromise must be completed by clarifying the message about why we fly the Confederate flag. H-3588 is a clear and bold statement that says, “We fly the Confederate flag to honor the service and the sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers and not for any other reason.”
Additionally, H-3588 teaches us the importance of our state flag to the Confederate soldiers and to our state’s involvement with the Confederacy during the Civil War. It is extremely appropriate to fly our state flag to honor the Confederate soldiers.
In conclusion, the bill H-3588 is fantastic. It completes the compromise by clarifying the message. H-3588 will appeal to a vast number of South Carolinians, and our legislature should pass it and make it law. Please support H-3588.
I concur with the condemnation of Walt Hampton’s post. It’s frightening that some people have such vitriol for the NAACP and for African-Americans.
I sincerely think that H-3588 will help end such hatred, distrust, and confusion, for very many people anyway.
Finally, I want to thank the sponsors of H-3588 for their leadership and their generosity in writing such a beautiful and respectful bill.
Thank you Mr. Rogers for drawing my attention to an error in my original post. The correct spelling for the White civilization that was slaughtered by Negroes in the late 17th Century is “Hispaniola.” Nevertheless, it did in fact occur, as is the ongoing massacre of White farmers in Rhodesia – and the beginings of the same in White South Africa.
After H-3588, what next? Don’t we already have a Negro in the SC House who has introduced legislation to remove Ben Tillman’s statue? What after that? Legislation that every White woman must miscegenate with Negro males? How much is enough for you?
yes today white people are not welcome to reside in africa.even missionaries have been hacked up rescently. almost every country in europe currently have serious problems with immigration and multiculturalism that are not going to just go away any time soon.look at americas porus border problems.it is a good time to know who your friends are.it is a good time to be ready for anything.
It is the cheapest of local news/political ploys to constantly regurgitate the flag issue. If anyone opposed to the current location of the flag has not read the inscription etched into the monument the flag flies alongside, shame on you. It is a testament to history. It can not be changed. There was a serious debate about the rights of states. Our own city was burned to the ground by the federal government. Can we have no reminder of the sacrifice people made in the attempt to limit the control of federal government? If we take the flag down, should we also take down the multi-million dollar “African-American Monument?” WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE ASHAMED OF OUR HISTORY (NO MATTER HOW MANY NORTHENERS MOVE HERE).
Shame on you for kicking this up again, Brad! What’s the matter? Need some readership?
John, you are right that states rights was an important part of the flag’s past. But the current display presents only one part of the flag’s history, the white man’s struggle against Northern aggresstion. Why do you focus so myopically on that one aspect of the flag’s past? Are you not aware that those who came later inflicted tremendous suffering while wrapping themselves in that same flag? Does not the intimidation of Blacks by those who brazenly waved that flag deserve to be remembered too?
This is why the flag dot not belong on Gervais Street. While that display may gloriously show YOUR history it ignores the equally significant history of OTHERS. It belongs in a museum where it can be displayed in a setting that shows the full scope of its history.
JimT,
Every monument doesn’t have to represent everybody. That argument is ridiculous. The African-American monument sure as heck doesn’t represent me. For that matter, neither does the confederate flag. It’s not about me. It’s not about you. Get over yourself.
“After H-3588, what next? Don’t we already have a Negro in the SC House who has introduced legislation to remove Ben Tillman’s statue? What after that? Legislation that every White woman must miscegenate with Negro males? How much is enough for you?
Posted by: Walt Hampton | Jul 20, 2008 1:37:49 AM”
I have no intention of engaging this person directly, but I’m wondering what other readers think about the numbers of white supremacists in SC… how many do you think are really out there?
BTW to Karen: I’m always impressed by your postings. Much like Herb Brasher (who I happen to disagree with on many issues but nevertheless respect) you express yourself with grace and eloquence.
Note to Michael Rogers:
I have examined H-3588 and it has my support. I will contact my House District 96 Representative my Senate District 23 Senator with my request that they support it, also. (Though I am fully aware that my request will have no impact on these two individuals.)
What is the current status of the bill?
John, I do not know why you say I think this is about me. I am white. When something is as controversial and hurtful as the Confederate flag, you cannot ignore those who have been offended by it. Well, maybe you can, but the state should not. If you have been offended by something on the African-American monument, please do let us know what it is.
Claudia and Karen
Did y’all ladies not read the comments from the reporter Orlano Salinas on the statements made by the NAACP about whites?
Why does your skin only crawl from the same statements given by just 1 race and not the other?
That Girl,
First, you don’t think that the legislature should listen to its constituents simply because some of them are members of the NAACP?! Members of the NAACP, along with many other white and black citizens of this State, really want the Confederate flag to cease flying from Statehouse grounds. Why shouldn’t the legislature listen to their concerns?
Second, the argument that you use – the slippery slope argument – can be used to argue against almost any idea. For instance, some Americans want to replace FDR with Reagan on the dime. Should we reject their arguments out of hand on the grounds that they may ask for more (e.g., Reagan on the nickel, the quarter, or perhaps even an all-Reagan currency) if we grant their request?
The slippery slope argument is fallacious unless a “chain of logical necessity” can be established. In this case, you have not established that the removal of the Confederate flag pursuant to H-3588 would necessarily lead to the removal of Confederate historical markers. Moreover, the following facts would undermine any attempt to establish such a chain:
a. The NAACP’s original 1999 resolution that called for the boycott demonstrates that the NAACP intended for its boycott to continue only “until such time that the Confederate Battle Flag is removed from positions of sovereignty in the state of South Carolina.”
b. In the highly improbable event that the NAACP were to continue its boycott after the Confederate flag ceased flying from Statehouse grounds, it is extremely unlikely that the NAACP would be able to rouse much support from groups like the NCAA.
c. The bill at issue here – H-3588 – does not require the legislature to do whatever the NAACP wants; it simply prohibits the flying of the Confederate flag from the Statehouse or its grounds. H-3588 would not repeal S.C. Code Ann. § 10-1-165, the statute that protects all Confederate monuments and memorials that are located on State property.
Third, only some of the costs of flying the Confederate flag on Statehouse grounds stem from the NAACP’s boycott. Columbia Mayor Bob Coble has noted that the Confederate flag makes it more difficult to bring businesses to the Columbia area. Like it or not, many people do not like seeing the Confederate flag flying from Statehouse grounds. While their feelings are often trivialized by flag supporters, their feelings are real and they are costing all of us in this State money.
Claudia,
Excellent. The bill will have to be reintroduced in the next session. It was kept in the House Judiciary Committee from 2/27/07, when it was introduced, ’til the end of the session.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Abby:
Excellent argument – succinct, incontrovertible, important.
Michael:
Will you share your suggested course of action to compel the reintroduction of the bill?
Thank you for your action and leadership on this matter.
Mr. Rodgers, Claudia, and other flag removal bill supporters,
Take a note from history, from your neighbors to the southwest. The great Georgia State Flag theft of 2001 by Barnes and Co.
Originally, as part of some silly lie filled so called one sided “compromise” the 1956 state flag was to have been assigned the “Georgia Memorial Flag” title, and flown next to the General/Governor John B. Gordon Monument for Confederate Memorial Day (sounds very much exactly like your flag removal bill in SC).
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2001_02/sum/hb16.htm
When the radical zealots discovered they had enough Iscariots to vote for the flag removal, the designation of the old flag was dropped and the old flag was removed from any future debate totally.
Then, when the final bill was law, it included a segment of Confederate Memorial protection – to make a feel good gesture to the losers.
However, since these words were inscribed into the Ga Code on Jan 31, 2001…
” (2) No publicly owned monument or memorial erected, constructed, created, or maintained on the public property of this state or its agencies, departments, authorities, or instrumentalities in honor of the military service of any past or present military personnel of this state, the United States of America or the several states thereof, or the Confederate States of America or the several states thereof shall be relocated, removed, concealed, obscured or altered in any fashion; provided, however, that appropriate measures for the preservation, protection, and interpretation of such monuments or memorials shall not be prohibited.”
… the City of Atlanta has illegally changed the name of (CSA Gen Turner) Ashby Street to (SCLC Rev Joe) Lowery Blvd which crosses I-20
…The black Mayor of Savannah illegally removed a portrait of General Robert E Lee from the city govt bldg
…The white Mayor of Augusta, at the demand of the SC NAACP illegally removed a 2nd Naional Confederate Flag from a historic flag display.
So, basically, never trust the govt, and I will fight your flag removal bill backed by the above experiences.
Claudia, thank you. And I think we have a lot of racists still in this state. Many are willing to claim it directly. These people at least have the courage to stand by those convictions. Many more, however, keep their language ‘correct’ or at least ‘coded’. These people are both craven, in that they don’t have the courage to say what they believe, and more dangerous because, like a stonefish, there poison is deadly but they look innocuous.
Billy,
I love our SC state flag. I’m glad I can count on your support if somebody tries to change our SC state flag. We won’t let them.
I personally think that our state flag is extremely strong, and that it doesn’t need to be supplemented by a 3rd flag. I guess others think our state flag is too weak and doesn’t deserve to fly out in front of our State House. Crazy.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
All this talk about “Confederate Heritage, not hate” is simply cherry-picked historical revisionism.
Once again, I will reiterate my call that we set up a statue of King Charles (for whom this state is named) and fly the English flag post-haste, for we desperately need to publicly recognize and honor those brave, fallen Tories and monarchist loyalists. they are MY WHITE heritage, who after all “settled” this state (or rather settled here and then had a nasty fight with the people who already lived here) After all, the Tories were treated horribly by those patriot terrorists after they lost. Families were torn apart, and their graves were even trashed. They lived and fought as honorably as any Confederate soldier, did they not?
I also want a “King Charles memorial day”, just like we have a confederate memorial day. I want the state to give me a paid day off of work to honor my heritage.
If we can “honor” one legacy so discredited, just what keeps us from honoring an earlier one to the same extent?
I also think the NAACP would do a lot to improve their image if they addressed the plight of other people of color instead of solely African-Americans. I would start with aiding the campaign to have the 20-something native American tribes finally obtain recognition that is long overdue. After all, they need a statue at the state house, a flag, and a paid state holiday too.
Then they should assist in a call for a monument to Essie Mae to honor the bi-racial people of our state. It should be appropriately placed right across from her father. Those with such heritage also deserve a paid state holiday, or be allowed to to take all related holidays instead of having to choose from one or the other.
I think we need a monument to memorialize our last-in-the-nation public education system that Brad has been fighting so hard to preserve. Or how about one dedicated to our corrections system, overrun with distinguished African Americans. Or maybe we could build a museum to forever honor Allendale county, a real symbol of success in the Black community. Or maybe the State could honor any of the outstanding Richland County Gov’t organizations, models of good government that they are. An Order of the Palmetto for Cromartie and Austin. We have so much to be proud of. Would any of this help you get over your White guilt syndrome, Karen and Claudia? You two really crack me up.
Perhaps we should learn from the balck african governments if someone pisses ypu off just kill them.If someone in your country has sex with animals and starts the aids virus just let the old racist USA bail you out.While you ponder these facts try to think of one black run government that is not broke and corrupt.The fact is the USA was built with white brains and muscle.It is being torn apart by black ignorance and the worst work ethics of any race in the world.
White guilt? We’re trying to find a better way to honor the Confederate soldiers. The current way ain’t cuttin’ it.
No one believes that the reason we fly the Confederate flag is to honor the Confederate soldiers.
And the Confederate flag supporters say, “Well, the people are stupid and ignorant and don’t know any history and apparently can’t even tell a square from a rectangle. And it’s all the NAACP’s fault.”
Wonderful. So, what’s the plan to convince everybody that they’re wrong? What’s the plan? Where is the action from our state government?
I’ll tell you where it is. It’s H-3588, that’s where it is. H-3588 boldly and clearly declares that the reason we fly the Confederate flag is to honor the Confederate soldiers and not for any other reason.
H-3588 says that it’s good for SC to commemorate Confederate Memorial Day, that it’s wonderful that the Confederate Soldier Monument is on Statehouse grounds, and that it’s fantastic that we have a flagpole on Statehouse grounds — in the front near the Confederate Soldier Monument — where we can fly the Confederate flag on Confederate Memorial Day.
H-3588 is a ringing endorsement of all things Confederate, and, moreover, it announces the strong connection that our SC state flag has with the Confederacy. H-3588 says that it’s now time to complete the compromise so that we can celebrate it. So we can all communicate it clearly. So we can tell the world what we have done here in SC.
Soldiers who serve honorably within a military chain of command where elected civilians perform oversight are respected, regardless of the politics of the war in which they fought.
And terrorists who operate outside the law are not to be respected. The KKK and al Qaeda are not to be respected.
H-3588 is exactly what we need in SC after 9/11. We need to show each other and the world that we in South Carolina take the extra effort needed to support soldiers and to fight terrorism.
We need to send a clear message, not a confusing one. We need not to ridicule people for misunderstanding the message. We need leadership that says that government is responsible to the people. We need leadership that understands that if the people don’t understand what their government is doing, then the government must make their actions easier to understand.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Yeah, Black govenment is awful. Check out reconciliation in South Africe (and yeah, I know that some who have been treated as slaves or worse have taken lives). Sex with animals seems to have originated in ‘the Holy Land’. At least we have Leviticus condemning it. Last time I checked, AIDS may have been transmitted to humans from people eating infected monkey meat. Its indiginous there, like squirrels are here. The US was built with money (mostly white) derived from black, Asian, Irish, and {name your newest immigrant] muscle. Some of them have risen to be the brains. More will follow. The miracle of the USA (if there is one) lies in providing people the opportunity to really make choices (instead of having to scrape together mere survival). If we are to prosper, we must offer this opportunity to all.
“No one believes that the reason we fly the Confederate flag is to honor the Confederate soldiers.”
Since you’re the one who started this, why don’t YOU tell us why it’s there?
Maybe the NAACP could boycott South Carolina.
Karen, yes there are racists people in South Carolina. On both sides, I can honestly say I’ve met more black racists than white racists. Some of the black racists I’ve encountered make Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and Louis Farrakahan look timid.
Like Barak Obama and Michele Obama.
That’s exactly the point, Mr. Hampton. The reason it’s there is not the least bit clear, and everyone has a different perspective, as Gov. Sanford said.
Sen. McConnell says that he put it there to honor the Confederate soldiers. Others say that it’s there to upset the NAACP. Still others say it’s there to send a message to the federal government or to “yankees” or to blacks or to whites or to whoever. Countless others have said countless other things.
I don’t know why it’s there; it doesn’t make any sense to me; I’m as confused as everybody else. Here’s what I think when I observe the current situation:
A flag that flies in front is sovereign, but the Confederacy was defeated, but the Confederate flag sure makes me think of the Confederate government, but it’s the soldier’s flag, but it looks a lot like the flag the supremacists used, but our state government wouldn’t support supremacists, would they?, but then why doesn’t our state government ever talk about the flag if they’re so proud of it?
Our state government would support Confederate soldiers, and the Confederate Soldier Monument is close to the flag, but the monument and the flag seem quite separate from each other, and the flag flies every day, not just on Confederate Memorial Day, so it must be sovereign, but the sovereign flags are above the State House, but the Confederate flag is flying in front of the State House, and a flag that flies in front is sovereign.
Then I go back to the beginning. It’s a nightmare, and all of us in South Carolina have similar, but different, nightmares. People who are trying to bring businesses, tourists, athletes, and workers into South Carolina, and people in South Carolina who are trying to sell products and services to people outside of the state, have to go through this entire circle all the time with their prospective clients.
I believe that our state government can easily fly the Confederate flag in a way that causes zero confusion about why. And the way I strongly suggest is to pass H-3588.
I believe that Sen. Glenn McConnell wants to fly the Confederate flag to honor the Confederate soldiers. That’s why I support H-3588, because it stays true to Sen. McConnell’s honorable motivation.
As I said above, “H-3588 boldly and clearly declares that the reason we fly the Confederate flag is to honor the Confederate soldiers and not for any other reason.”
H-3588 clears up all the confusion. It’s Claritin clear.
“I don’t know why it’s there;
it doesn’t make any sense to
me; I’m as confused as
everybody else.”
Please do not misunderstand my query as “confuse(d)” over the issue. I am not confused as to why the flag is there. I only wanted your reason(s) for the
considerable investment of time and capitol you have apparently invested in this issue. Thank you for your forthright reply, which by the way, were the exact same reasons why the flag was removed from the Dome in 2000.
Now that we have moved on to removal of Ben Tillman’ statue, are there other reasons not posted in your previous response, as to why this should be done?
Mr Rodgers,
You are correct, I will fight any SOB who attacks the state flag of SC.
Question. How do you reconcile the fact, that even though the AoT/Naval Jack was used in limited fashion in an unofficial capacity by a few haters from the 1950s to as of late, the official flag of the Klan since 1866 has been the United States Flag, and any subjective research will clearly show that for every nut in a robe waving the St Andrew’s cross, there are a thousand showing massive amounts of the same utilizing the Stars and Stripes.
Of course it was the last flag millions of the Indians saw prior to being exterminated – well that one and the US Calvary guidon with crossed sabres, which the US Army still uses.
Just curious…
Yes, this confusion is exactly what the NAACP described in their original resolution in 1999. As I have indicated, and as Gov. Sanford and many others, including the NAACP, have described, the legislation in 2000 did not clear up the confusion.
It reminds me of a joke by Paula Poundstone. She was staying in a hotel, and there was complementary hand lotion, but not shampoo in her room. She called the front desk and asked for shampoo. The person at the desk replied that he had no shampoo to give her but that he could give her extra hand lotion. She replied, “How does that help? Will that that do to my hair?”
Flying the Confederate flag from the flagpole near the Confederate Soldier Monument is like getting extra hand lotion. It’s not what was asked for, and it doesn’t help the situation.
The NAACP’s original resolution says nothing about monuments. Nothing. A flag is a living thing, and a monument is a dead thing. They are so completely different.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Billy,
The issue is the confusion as to the reason why we fly a 3rd flag. There is absolutely no confusion why we fly our USA flag. We fly it because it’s our national sovereign flag.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
I wonder just how many people even paid any attention that the Confederate Battle Flag was flying from atop the stsea house before the naacp decieded that they didn’t like it.I am a PROUD decendent of a Confederate soldier that ultimately gave his life for his way of life. He didn’t own a single slave, but was willing to fight for state’s right’s. The naacp should just leave wellenough alone. There are far more important issues that should be addressed with the kind of time and money that the naacp is wasting, and causing the state to waste on an issue that has already been resolved. the naacp just has to have something to complain about, and to get some attention. I guess they think that it worked once, why not go ahead and beat this dead horse again!! I’ve seen, around the malls, black kids wearing t-shirts that says “you wear your X and I’ll wear mine” the X on their shirt is from the African flag…think about it. I’ve never seen a white person get upset about a black person wearing or flying that.
I have just gotten back from out of state and was delighted to see this controversy raise it’s ugly head AGAIN. This state and it’s people went through hell a few years back when the Great Compromise went into effect to remove the flag from the dome. The NAACP agreed to this compromise. What’s the problem? The Confederate Flag ‘flies’ on the State House grounds in such an inconspicous location, you just about have to get out and go look for it. The NAACP should HONOR their compromise ( shocking thought… ) and get over it.
Of course you are quite correct, Allen. All the pseudo-political postering aside, this issue is about race, and nothing BUT race. Above all, Confederate soldiers were WHITE men fighting for a WHITE civilization, which is EXACTLY why they are being so ruthlessly attacked.
I have yet to be convinced that raising this issue is not just one more smoke screen thrown up to avoid dealing with issues that truly are more pressing.
This is not the time for the NAACP, the Urban League, elected officials, or anyone else to be focusing energy on a dang scrap of cloth. We have far too many children living in dangerous gang-infested areas with hardly any hope of escaping a cycle of poverty. We have a large population of South Carolinians living in crisis situations and this is what our elected officials and black organizations are focusing on??? Convince me that removing that flag will help ONE family living in Gable Oaks..or The Ridge..or anywhere on Farrow Road. Convince me that removing that flag will improve education scores, build new schools, eradicate gang violence, lower crime statistics, and clean up infested neighborhoods. Karen? Abby? Michael? If you can, then I’ll be the first lined up to take the thing down. If you can’t, then PLEASE let’s turn attention to solving problems that truly will benefit South Carolina. It doesn’t make one a racist to recognize that the organizations dedicated to helping blacks are collecting nice fat paychecks and living far away from these crime-infested neighborhoods.
Let me get this straight…In the cavity that is Karen’s head, she believes that government in South Africa is going well, and AIDS comes from bad monkey meat (or else originated in Israel, not sure which). Karen, I’m sorry, but you make Mr. Hampton sound intelligent. That’s some accomplishment.
John, I did not say South Africa was perfect; I merely suggested that they set up a means of dealing with post-aparteid reconciliation that was good. I haven’t been watching South Africa’s current governmental screw-ups; I’ve been too concerned with ours. And yeah, from what I’ve understood from my reading, the transmission of aids from monkey to man is thought to have occurred during the skinning and cleaning of monkeys.
How about if we place not-too-expensive, but visible, say 10-foot-high, NAACP flag at every location where a black shot another black to death, and some stickers for the automobiles of every unmarried black mother or black man with children out of wedlock or that he has abandoned.
It would be like pins on a map, but real-sized, to give visibility to the scope of the main problem the NAACP seeks to ignore.
In that South African amnesty program, Nelson Mandela confessed to killing not only the policemen for which he was sent to prison, but 11 political enemies after he got out of prison. His successors were all Soviet-trained Marxists.
Crime skyrocketed, investors fled, property was seized, educated people of all colors tried to get out of the country.
ThatGirl,
Ron Aiken says that SC could gain $50 million in revenue if the NCAA ban was lifted. Let’s start with that and do a cost-benefit analysis.
As Jim said, passing H-3588 costs us nothing. Ron Aiken said that the benefit is $50 million. What should we do?
If you wish, you can support H-3588 by sending a letter to your State Representative and your State Senator.
The sooner we complete the compromise with clarity, the sooner we all will have the same message that defines our state: SC, the state devoted to history, heritage, and hospitality.
When we all speak with the same message, then we’ve got a strong and solid brand that we can market, and the sky is the limit.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Dear Mr. Hampton,
You wrote, “Above all, Confederate soldiers were WHITE men fighting for a WHITE civilization, which is EXACTLY why they are being so ruthlessly attacked.”
Failing to retract or clarify this sentiment may cause you to be kicked out of the SCV, if you are a member. That is, if their quite strong policy on hate groups is enforced (I have no reason to believe that it is not enforced).
My understanding of the SCV’s position is that they say:
1) There were some BLACK Confederate soldiers in addition to the WHITE Confederate soldiers, and
2) It is quite possible that soon after the Civil War, had the southern states completed their secession, the Confederate government would have freed the slaves.
Also, the fact that you are completely sure in your own mind as to why the Confederate flag flies from Statehouse grounds is no contradiction to Gov. Sanford’s observation, “Everybody has a different perspective.”
Finally, I hope that you see that I am not attacking the Confederate soldiers at all, and that H-3588 is quite respectful to the Confederate soldiers. In fact H-3588 establishes commemoration ceremonies, and I look forward to celebrating these respecfully with you.
I hope that you will join this solution so that we will soon pass H-3588, and then we will all have the same perspective: The Confederate flag flies on Confederate Memorial Day to honor the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
This issue proves that no issue is ever truly settled. The NAACP made a deal and now they want to renig. How can they be trusted? The NAACP should go the way of the other hate groups to ash bin of history.
You know, Mr. Rogers, this all sounds very good on the surface. The problem I have with it, is that this same line of reasoning was used by your associate Mr. Warthen in an item he published in this newspaper back on Sunday, July 2, 2000 entitled “Monument wasn’t always in current prominent location” wherein he questioned the prominence of the Soldier’s Monument much in the same manner as you do the flag.
To wit…”Am I suggesting that we move the monument…? I don’t think anybody’s ready for that battle yet.” Now we have reporter John Monk agitating our Negroes over the Ben Tillman statue, and Strom Thurmond’s memorial has already been defaced with the name of his illegimate offspring. Where is all this to end? The common thread I find in all of this, is that every one of these monuments, memorials, or whatever are linked by the accomplishments of proud White men who stood by their race and state. This is what seems to be the problem with the NAACP and their supporters – the mistaken belief that if they tear down and destroy the White race, it will somehow enhance theirs. I offer Rhodesia, South Africa, and Hispaniola as contrary evidence.
I never denied the existance of Negro Confederates. There were hundreds of thousands of men under arms in the Southern armies. Quite possibly, there may have been a homosexual or two mixed in with the lot of them. Are you going to tell me the Confederate army fought and died for “Gay Rights?” P-u-l-e-e-z-e…give me a break!
White pride. That’s what it’s all about, Mr. Rogers.
White guilt is what it’s all about to the modern pseudo-liberal.
To them, the NAACP is behaving the way blacks ought to behave. Blacks who don’t play the role, who advocate self-determination and shun handouts from white liberals, are dismissed as not being genuine, unworthy of white appointment as “black leaders”.
Uh folks, I hate to break it to you, but it’s not just the NAACP that wants the thing taken down. Lots and lots of other decent folk, even lots of white folk want it down.
I hope that most of us can agree on at least one thing…Mr. Hampton is an absolute nutjob. Mr. Hampton, if you’d like to keep the flag in place, you may want to consider not posting comments. You are a detriment to the cause you profess to support. I don’t know about the people in your trailer park, but in my neighborhood we use sheets to sleep between.
Lot’s of other people don’t count, unless they are native South Carolinians. The opinions of editors in New York, professional race hustlers, and Yankee retirees seeking to escape the nasty mess they left, don’t count.
Why do 9% of the population get to tell the other 91% of us what we should do and how we should feel. I think you should do travel brochures and feature the Confederate Battle Flag. Tell them your heritage is not for sale at $50 million or at any price. What boogeyman will the NAALCP go after to raise money when they have black washed (Saying “white” washed would be racist!) our history. They are as outdated as Sharpton, Jackson, and all the other race hustlers of the 60s. The State newspaper is going the same way unless ya’ll get a grip and start reporting the news instead of making it up.
H-3588 makes “heritage” more secure by re-endorsing the Confederate Soldier Monument, Confederate Memorial Day, the Confederate flag’s flagpole, and the Confederate flag itself. Additionally, H-3588 educates everyone about the importance of our state flag to the Confederate soldiers. At zero cost, H-3588 does all of this, as well as clearing up all the confusion about why we fly the Confederate flag — to honor those soldiers.
Only one question remains for the “heritage” crowd: What do you prefer, everyone giving the Confederate soldiers respect year-round and special honors — complete with a Confederate flag flying ceremony — on Confederate Memorial Day or seeing the Confederate flag fly year-round in a confusing and divisive display that encourages people to insult the Confederate soldiers due to the intransigence of our state legislators?
Mr. Rodgers,
My personal balking is not due to where the flag flies. I must confess, it isn’t even about IF the flag flies. For me it is about refusing to be “strong armed” by the whims and wishes of organizations that in my opinion stirs irrevelent controversies just to keep their own pockets lines.
While the idea of $50 million looks good, it is a projection based on far too many assumptions to be an absolute. Even if it would be a sure thing, there has been no indication that it would be used to offset the costs to society that those who the NAACP purport to “advance” drain on our community and our state each day. Is that racist? No..it is reality as the state’s recent coverage of the north Columbia “clean up” more than illustrates.
I would like to refer you to an edtorial by Leonard Pitts, Jr. that really outlines the frustration many of us have with attention being focused on a flag instead of dealing with issues that would truly make a difference:
http://www.thestate.com/editorial-columns/story/465937.html
This part really sums it up:
“Save The Children,” Marvin Gaye exhorted 27 years ago. But we are losing the children in obscene numbers. Losing them to jails, losing them to graves, losing them to illiteracy, teen parenthood and other dead-ends and cul-de-sacs of life. But I have yet to hear America — or even African-America — scream about it. Does no one else see a crisis here?
“I don’t think that in America, especially in black America, we can arrest this problem unless we understand the urgency of it,” says Tony Hopson Sr., founder of SEI. “When I say urgency, I’m talking 9/11 urgency, I’m talking Hurricane Katrina urgency, things that stop a nation. I don’t think in black America this is urgent enough. Kids are dying every single day. I don’t see where the NAACP, the Urban League, the Black Caucus have decided that the fact that black boys are being locked up at alarming rates, means we need to stop the nation and have a discussion about how we’re going to eradicate that as a problem. It has not become urgent enough. If black America don’t see it as urgent enough, how dare us think white America is going to think it’s urgent enough?”
While it sounds like a lot, $50 million is nothing in today’s economy especially when it would not be specifically earmarked to ease financial burdens on our citizens. Will it go to after school programs? Will it go to increased police protection? Will it go to community clean up? Just where will this fictional $50 million go? Even if Columbia gets all this supposed “free advertisement” it won’t take a tourist but one trip to wonder why the heck they came to this crime-infested area. Is it worth giving in…or is it worth sending a message to the NAACP that this time someone won’t buckle in to their pitiful demands until their organization’s leaders get off their cushy butts and actually DO something to begin to change the mindsets of many in the black community.
One thing is clear. The naacp and their friends wish to remove everything Confederate.Flag removed? The statue will be next.Flags,plaques,statues,street names,school names,etc., have already been removed.The flag was taken off the dome, just like they wanted, but not good enough.Think people. Why would they remove a flag but leave a huge statue “on state property”? They won’t.Never has there been a more infantile group of people.It is like a mass of 6 yr olds, running around, whinning about everything.Stop me when I’m lying.
H-3588 doesn’t protect heritage, because the intent of the authors is to come back with a new bill and repeal it. If they don’t tear up this latest “compromise”, some other bunch of racist goons will try, and the backers of H-3588 will sit silently while it happens.
Liberals can’t be trusted. They operate on lies. Their word means nothing, because they have no honor, and think it is okay to deceive their enemy, the patriotic American people.
“Liberals can’t be trusted. They operate on lies. Their word means nothing, because they have no honor, and think it is okay to deceive their enemy, the patriotic American people.”
Good point! Mr. Warthen wrote in 2000, “Am I suggesting that we move the (Confederate Soldier’s) monument…? I don’t think anybody’s ready for that battle yet.” That was eight years ago. Does he think we are “ready” now? Perhaps after Mr. Rogers removes the flag for him?
“Why would they remove a flag but leave a huge statue “on state property?”
The statue honors the men and women who died in defense of their state. The statue was never used as a symbol of hate by the children and grand-children of those who died.
“”heritage” more secure”
It is sad that the Civil War is taken as the sum total of Southern Heritage by many (as symbolized by the flag). The flag is only one of dozens of flags used during that 5 year period… 5 years out of the 220 that SC has been a state. And for significantly less time than, say, the British flag flew over it.
“but was willing to fight for state’s right’s”
SC seceded for only one “state’s right” – the right to own slaves and have them returned when they escaped. Go read the declaration: http://facweb.furman.edu/~benson/docs/decl-sc.htm
If your ancestor was fighting for his state because he was at war, then he was a hero and part of the reason I think the statue should be there, and why the flag doesn’t personally offend me. If he was fighting for the right of others to own slaves, then he wasn’t even a good human being let alone a hero, and he was part of the reason many find the flag offensive.
South Carolina and the rest of the Deep South also seceded because the Yankees had rigged the tarriffs to encourage foreign trade in Yankee goods, but trade through Charleston and Richmond in cotton, tea, and rice.
The abolitionists tried to spin the war as being all about slavery, which it wasn’t. Lincoln and other Northern politicians got them to put a lid on it, because they hoped to reach some settlement in 1861.
“South Carolina and the rest of the Deep South also seceded because the Yankees had rigged the tarriffs to….”
Too bad they didn’t take more time to explicitly write those up in the secession declaration then. http://facweb.furman.edu/~benson/docs/decl-sc.htm
Too bad you are unfamiliar with US History, and so easily duped. Go read up on the issues broader than one document. Harpers Magazine of that era is still available. If you have trouble, I will direct you to some discussion by Lincoln of how the abolitionists need to pipe down, because the secession and war was not about slavery.
ThatGirl,
Just to make sure I understand…
You’re standing up to the NAACP strongly and forcefully on an issue that you care nothing about.
You want the NAACP to change the mindset of people in the black community so that they’re focused on more important things, like the alarming incarceration rate of black boys, before they ask anybody in the white community to do anything to help them.
You’re rejecting my request for you to support H-3588, the bill that people in the black community have sponsored to respect the Confederate soldiers and to improve South Carolina’s image and economy.
OK. Thank you.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Lee, I wasn’t saying anything about why the North went to war or the abolitionists. Doulbe checking my comments, I was only remarking on why the South seceded.
South Carolina’s leaders put forth a document in their own words explicitly designed to say why they were seceding. The only thing they mentioned was they wanted the North to let them keep slaves and return the ones that ran away. (As opposed to the U.S. declaration of independence which has an extensive list of complaints).
They either a) didn’t think any other issue was even important enough to mention relative to slavery or b) were incompetent.
It doesn’t matter to me which of those you want to pick, I’m happy to classify the South Carolina leaders at the time as evil and/or stupid.
ThatGirl,
“I have reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride towards freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councils or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’
-MLK, Jr. “Letter from Birmingham Jail,” April 16, 1963, as published in “Why We Can’t Wait”
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
“You want the NAACP to change the mindset of… the black community so that they’re focused on more important things,… before they ask anybody in the white community to do anything to help them.”
Where did ThatGirl say she didn’t want the NAACP to ask non-blacks to help them in fighting the social problems that plague the impoverished of our country??!?!?
I read it as she finds it assinine that the people proposing the bill and some of those in the NAACP spends so much of there efforts on something that is, relative to the other problems you mention, a trifle… and that they are so politically inept that they are trying to convince South Carolinians they should do something by trying to force them to… and that even if they succeed that they will have expended political capital that could be better invested in tackling those other problems.
It’s a pretty sad statment (about our state, country, and the NAACP) that they couldn’t launch the boycott about something that matters (like the way schools in African American majority districts are underfunded) and have to pick something that is (relatively) inconsequential to make their statement.
Well, looks like you got something started anyway — 102 comments and counting…
“who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom”
Did you really just equate the confederate flag flying (364 more days than you want) at the confederate memorial to vote suppression, segregated schools, and not having hiring discrimination be illegal?!?!?!?
justsaying,
I was equating her paternalism of today to the paternalism of the white moderates of MLK’s era. She wants to tell the NAACP what to do, and she won’t support H-3588, which is a bill already under consideration and which will help South Carolinians? Her supporting this reasonable and respectful bill is easy and appropriate; her fighting this bill is paternalistic. That’s what I was just saying.
Also, she brought up the quote of a quote, “If black America don’t see it [the alarming incarceration rate of black boys] as urgent enough, how dare us think white America is going to think it’s urgent enough?” to support her paternalistic attitude.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
If I were in the house, I would probably vote for the bill as it seems reasonable. I wouldn’t make any effort to get it passed and if the person proposing it had asked my opinion earlier on, I probably would have suggested they spend their time on something more important (which is hopefully what I would have been spending my time on already). I would have said that regardless of the skin color of the person who asked about the bill.
If a person (who happens to have light skin) gives their opinion, advice, or suggestion to another person or group of people (who happen to mostly have dark skin), why is it automatically paternalistic (or any other euphemism for racist)?
And how is it that you are not being condescending (morally paternalistic) to try and tell others that something is “reasonable and respectful” without letting them make up their own mind on the matter?
Do I have to ask your race, and you mine, before I can make a suggestion about how you might more constructively phrase things?
Talk about (the dictionairy definition) of racism!
Mr. Rodgers,
I find it interesting that you assume I am white. Does this mean that you feel that no blacks find it tragic that the NAACP devotes so much time, money, and resources on grandstand issues like the Confederate flag rather than immediate problems that could make an immediate and more lasting impact within the black community?
Mr. Rodgers, I’ll have you know that my profession is working with those children identified as “at risk”. I have been in “The Ridge”. I have been in “Gable Oaks”. I have been in the midst of gang altercations off Broad River Road. Have you? I see the sad impact of problems that need to be addressed immediately so that no more children are lost to the gang mentality and to the violence that is an accepted way of life within these communities. I see what these children and their families are up against each and every day. So maybe you need to remind me just why I should get excited about the NAACP focusing on a flag. Remind me just what part of the editorial that I quoted is untrue.
Sorry..as I stated before..I don’t care if that flag stays, goes, or moves somewhere else. But do not pretend that the energy that the NAACP continues to put towards that effort will in any way benefit the black community. I’m not sure what is in this personally for you, but do not quote Martin Luther King to me unless you have worked WITHIN these communities as I have.
If you want to truly make a difference in lives, go into these communities and become a positive male role model. Encourage black males to volunteer their times to demonstrate to these young children that “cool” and “success” does not mean the one who has the most drug money or longest rap sheet. The young boys especially need strong male figures in their lives. I think if anyone has shown a racist side in our exchange, it is you, sir.
Sincerely,
That (Black) Girl
The black supported bill H-3588 is meant to honor Confederate soldiers about like Muslim terrorists flying jets were honoring the Twin Towers. Its just another way for the NAACP to try and flex its 98 lb weakling arms, because I assure you if the flag goes then something else will be next in line for them to bitch about. As for the 50M unseen dollars…to hell with it. Pride should never be for sale…at any price!
And as for those of you who use SC’s declaration as your means to prove that The War of Northern Agression was all over slavery. Maybe you should read some other documents from the time about the unfair tariffs,northern federal gov’t buildup….etc……just sayin’
ThatGirl,
I assumed that you weren’t an NAACP member because it seemed to me that you were attacking the NAACP from outside the NAACP. That is all. I made no assumption about your race.
I equated your paternalism of today to that of white moderates in MLK’s era. It seemed to me that you were more interested in order than justice and that you chose the side of the leaders in the legislature (father-government) against the NAACP to send a message to the NAACP that they needed to change.
I wanted to make the point that by choosing the status quo, by taking the side of the leaders in the legislature, by telling the NAACP — from outside the NAACP — that they need to change their ways and grow up before you’ll support H-3588, you were acting paternalistically, and that such action today — by people of any race — may be the biggest stumbling block on H-3588.
Anyone can join the NAACP, and anyone can criticize the NAACP — member and non-member alike. If you’re a member of the NAACP (and I still don’t know if you are or not), then I apologize for saying your action was paternalistic. Criticism from inside is not paternalism.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
“as for those of you who use SC’s declaration as your means to prove that The War of Northern Agression was all over slavery”
Kevin, if you actually read what was typed above, you’d see that I said numerous times above (when bringing up SC’s delcaration) that I wasn’t saying anything about the North’s motivations (of which I am well aware aren’t necessarily noble)– or about the Southern soldiers motivations — only about what the Southern leaders explicitly said was their reason for seceding in a document designed to lay out those reasons (and, they only gave the one).
“Pride should never be for sale…at any price!”
Pride is a piss-poor excuse for not at least trying to understand the other side. Exactly how hard is it to recognize that the flag symbolizes brave men dying to protect their state to some, and to others it symbolizes a state that fought for slavery and then continued to viciously discriminate for another 100 years after it lost. (Maybe “they” would have less bitching to do next if your generations parents and grandparents hadn’t been racist bastards. And maybe your point would be made more usefully if you simply laid out the facts that you thought the last compromise respected both sides, and you can’t support this move because you see no reason to believe the next step isn’t getting rid of the entire statue.)
“Criticism from inside is not paternalism.”
Why is criticism from without necessarily paternalistic?
justsaying,
Criticism from without is not necessarily paternalistic. Such criticism only becomes paternalistic when one chooses the status quo solely in order to tell the group that wants change to grow up, reprioritize, etc.
When one has no opinion whatsoever on an issue, and a group makes a reasonable and respectable request, and one sees no reason not to grant the request on the merits, and one chooses the status quo anyway to send a message to that group that they need to grow up, then one’s action is paternalistic.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Michael,
Thank you for the clarification, I hadn’t thought of defining it that way, but it makes sense.
That definition, though, wouldn’t apply at all to those who favor the status quo becaue they want to continue to honor the confederate dead (and maybe think this changes the compromise into a push down the slippery slope), does it?
-JS
justsaying, you’re exactly right. -MJR
ThatGirl,
Please let me add a thank you to you for your work with “at risk” children. You are right that there is an immediate need for action to stop the gang violence and to address the alarming incarceration rate.
I believe that passing H-3588 will indicate that our state government listens to and respects the opinions of all South Carolinians. This action will provide some hope to the children who currently have no hope.
I am going into communities infected with gang violence to inspire the children to a life of success, to work to stop the gangs, and to be a role model. I would love to get more information from you about your work. Please send me an email.
Thank you.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
the old flag will fly forever
the old flag will fly forever
Mr. Rodgers and other readers,
I invite you (and anyone else who wants to make a real difference in lives) to volunteer your time and/or consider making a tax deductible donation with the organization, HOPE Worldwide. The national website link is:
http://www.hopeww.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=191&srcid=-2
The local link is:
http://www.hopeww.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=374&srcid=527
This is an organization that truly makes a difference in people’s lives at our local level, but manpower and funding is tight. This organization also does not discriminate according to one’s race. Being a child “at risk” and stuck in a cycle of poverty comes in all races. HOPE frequently partners with CityYear volunteers, but the combined efforts are but drops in the bucket compared to what needs to be achieved..hence my frustration with organizations that focus on flag battles that will not, in my opinion, make any difference in what I see as a crisis situation.
If you would like more information on our local Hope organization…or learn more on how you can help…I will repeat, please visit this link:
http://www.hopeww.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=374&srcid=527
In closing, I would like to once more ask the question that I initially posed to you Mr. Rodgers:
Please explain to me how passing this bill will help one child that I work with. Perhaps I’m dense, but I see immediate differences that HOPE is making in children’s lives. I see “other” organizations making the news daily by stirring up old racial controversies, but it feels that they don’t want to “get their hands dirty” by directly working in these neighborhoods.
In closing I would like to say I did not send this in a private email to you because I think anyone reading this should know about the differences that HOPE is making in our community. I also apologize if I seem paternalistic to you. I prefer to think of myself as more “maternalistic”. I also would wonder the reasoning that suggests one should not criticize an organization (or an organizations motives) unless they are a due-paying member.
Thanks,
That Girl
Sorry, it appears that my links didn’t work.
Go to: http://www.hopeww.org
up in the lefthand corner you will find a drop-down menu under “Inside Hope Worldwide”.
Click on the “Our Countries” list in the choices.
On the next page click on “United States”
Scroll down to the bottom left where you will find “South Carolina”. This will give you our local information.
Sorry..not sure why my links weren’t working.
Move the flags.
Ban display of the flag.
Remove the statues and memorials to the Confederacy.
Rename the streets to erase the names of Confederate leaders and heroes.
Minimalize coverage in school books and classes, teaching only a simplistic version of the post-war Yankee story.
Smear all Antebellum Southerners as villains.
Smear modern Southerners by associating them with the villains of old.
The NAACP is a noble organization that does the best it can to serve our country within the mission that they have set forth for themselves. But they’re not perfect, so please, anyone who wants to, criticize away.
And as for H-3588, please judge it on its merits. It does none of the things that Lee Muller says that it does. It respects “heritage” and all things Confederate in a clear and responsible way.
The bill H-3588 helps South Carolina. It helps change the definition of our state from South Carolina, where the Confederate flag still flies, to South Carolina, the state devoted to history, heritage, and hospitality.
The legislature votes on many bills of varying levels of importance all the time, so their giving H-3588 a proper consideration is a reasonable request. I think it should be made law, and I hope you do too. Thank you.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
The entire flag controversy was cooked up by the NAACP after their leaders, based here in Columbia, were caught embezzling over $2,000,000, resigned and copped a plea.
Former gang leader and pseudo Muslim Kwezi Mfume took over and got the Yankee media to help him cook up the flag controversy as a smokescreen and fundraiser. Lower-level editors in Atlanta, Charlotte, and Columbia got in step with their corporate agenda.
Since then, the NAACP has been through more scandals, more turnover of leaders, and more phony hate campaigns against the South.-
Although its name implies more, the NAACP is an organization with a relatively narrow mission: “to ensure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of rights of all persons and to eliminate racial hatred and racial discrimination.” The goal of the NAACP is to create a level playing field — to ensure equal rights and equal access. The NAACP is not a hate group; it is an anti-hate group.
While acting within this narrow mission, the NAACP has become well-known for its success in fighting for anti-lynching laws, school desegregation, and voting rights. Currently, the NAACP is, among other things, fighting for equal access to high quality public education and high quality affordable healthcare, fighting to end employment discrimination, and fighting for the equal treatment of those in the criminal justice system.
Thus, the NAACP is fighting to solve a lot of the big problems in our country. Additionally, the NAACP continues its fight to solve the Confederate flag issue — as part of the SC State Conference of the NAACP’s Campaign for Dignity. Importantly, unlike those other big problems, the Confederate flag issue can be solved by the passage of one small piece of legislation, namely H-3588.
What will solving the Confederate flag issue do for at-risk children? The NAACP argues that many people view the Confederate flag in its present location as a symbol of unequal opportunity. If children think that they do not have equal opportunity, they may lose hope. As Mike Fitts described in his last column for The State, hope is a necessary ingredient for success. Passing H-3588 might just give some children in SC the hope that they need to succeed. Moreover, resolving this issue will make it easier for leaders to attract businesses here, thus promoting economic development that will help lift at-risk children out of poverty.
The NAACP is fighting to CREATE an issue about the Confederate flags.
50% of black students in SC drop out of school, so what good does it do to spend more money when they are not even attending? Sounds like the NAACP should be working on fixing the anti-education ATTITUDES among black youth.
Most of the lynching arrests in SC in the last decade have been blacks committing the crime.
75% of black children in SC are born to single mothers, and that is the primary cause of poverty. Why doesn’t the NAACP work on black men taking responsibility and treating women with respect?
Ooooops! I forgot that one recent president of the NAACP resigned after being caught in an affair with a co-worker, and another has fathered over six illegitimate children.
“Passing H-3588 might just give some (Negro) children in SC the hope that they need to succeed.”
That’s a good one! After the flag is removed and these Negro children have garnered some new hope, why not proceed to what Mr. Warthen sees as the next step and do away with the Confederate Soldier’s Monument? Even more “hope” for these downtrodden Negroes? Perhaps even more if we go to the back of the Capitol and remove the Confederate Ladies Monument?
Hell! Why not just take all of this to its logical conclusion and exterminate every last Caucasian Man, woman, and child in SC a-la Hispaniola style? Look how much hope the current residents there have now!!!
Mr. Hampton,
I feel that I would be remiss if I did not address some of your outlandish comments.
1) “…why not proceed to what Mr. Warthen sees as the next step and do away with the Confederate Soldier’s Monument?”
Because H-3588 offers zero support for removing any monuments. In fact, H-3588 is a clear re-endorsement of the Confederate Soldier Monument. So, if anything, H-3588 makes removing monuments more difficult, not less.
2) “Why not just take all of this to its logical conclusion and exterminate every last Caucasian Man, woman, and child in SC a-la Hispaniola style?”
H-3588 is a bill that calls for our state to unite together — all of us — to celebrate a respectful commemoration of Confederate Memorial Day, complete with a Confederate flag flying ceremony. The claim that passing H-3588 would logically lead to the extermination “of every last Caucasian Man, woman, and child in SC” is beyond ridiculous.
Finally, please try to realize that all of the monuments and all of the holidays and all of the flags authorized by our state belong to all of us. The African-American Monument belongs to all of us. The Confederate Soldier Monument belongs to all of us. The Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday belongs to all of us. Confederate Memorial Day belongs to all of us. Our state flag flies from the dome to represent all of us, and the Confederate flag flies from Statehouse grounds to confuse and divide all of us.
As U.S. Rep. Jim Clyburn recently told our state legislature, “Our history is what it is. … The Confederate flag is a part of what we all have to deal with. If you look at the real history, I don’t think any of us ought to be ashamed of what that history is. We ought to celebrate it for what it was. You put everything in its proper perspective and you think about tomorrow. … We’ve been too busy in recent years erecting barriers among us, which are harmful to the long-range best interests of our state and country. It’s time we come together.”
From where it is flying now, the Confederate flag acts as a barrier among us that is harmful to the long-range best interests of our state and country. It’s time for us in SC to come together and pass H-3588. This bill enables all of us in South Carolina to put the Confederate flag in its proper perspective so that we can celebrate our history for what it was. So we can all celebrate our history. And our history, Mr. Hampton, belongs to all of us.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
“So, if anything, H-3588 makes removing monuments more difficult, not less.”
Your bill, in this particular context, is totally redundant and entirely uncalled for. The compromise of 2000 which placed the flag where it now flies also
provides protection for Confederate monuments not only on the Capitol grounds, but also across the entire state.
“The claim that passing H-3588 would logically lead to the extermination ‘of every last Caucasian Man, woman, and child in SC’ is beyond ridiculous.”
Not so. The Whites of Rhodesia compromised control of their nation by legislative nonsense similiar to your bill, to their Negroes. Subsequently, those
Whites who did not flee for their lives were butchered on their own farms and today that country is an economic basket case. The Whites of South Africa also
lost their will to live, and today that country is the AIDs and rape capital of the industrialized world. Although the same cannot be said for the White
civilization of Hispaniola, they did allow into their society this nonsense of “fraternity and equality” imported from the French Revolution to infect their
Negroes with the idea that they were somehow on an even par with their White masters, and were simply butchered.
In our own time, American Negroes have been fed this same nonsense for two generations now – and similiarly – American Whites are being slaughtered in a like
manner. The masses of American Whites are totally unaware of this race war because the masters of the controlled media only give local coverage to the
Black-on-White massacre – thereby rendering those Whites outside of that particular geographical area totally unaware of what has happened – while providing
complete national coverage of what few White-on-Black crimes that do occur. How many Whites are aware of the slaughter of our kinfolk in the Knoxville and
Wichita Massacres, and how many have NOT been overwhelmed with unending deluge of Rodney King and Jasper Texas.
Will H-3588 bring SC Whites to the realization of the race war that is being waged against us? If it does, then it will truly be a blessing in disguise.
“Our state flag flies from the dome to represent all of us, and the Confederate flag flies from Statehouse grounds to confuse and divide all of us.”
The rest of your diatribe seems to revolve about this central premise. Who or what is exactly “us?” Generally speaking, 2/3rds of SC consists of Whites,
and the remaining 1/3rd are Negroes. It has been my observation as a lifelong resident of SC that the mayority of Whites here have no particular animosity
towards Negroes or any other race, so long as we can remain unmolested by them. Since the end of segregation, a relentless race war has been waged against
our people, and I think that as a people we are slowly coming to the realization that interracial societies are inherently unstable, and by sheer weight of
inerta, will tip in favor of one race or the other.
Whites need to come to the realization that when we relinquish control of the societies we have created, the ultimate result will be the demise and
extinction of our people. The attacks on our monuments, flags, and symbols are only the opening salvos of the White blood that will surely be shed, unless we
as a people stand up and say “enough,” retake our society, and secure the existance of our people and a future for White children.
So it is about racism after all, isn’t it.
So it is about racism after all, isn’t it. JimT
Yes, yes it is! Racism by the naacp Blacks towards Whites.
“”In our own time, American Negroes have been fed this same nonsense for two generations now – and similiarly – American Whites are being slaughtered in a like manner. The masses of American Whites are totally unaware of this race war because the masters of the controlled media only give local coverage to the Black-on-White massacre – thereby rendering those Whites outside of that particular geographical area totally unaware of what has happened – while providing complete national coverage of what few White-on-Black crimes that do occur.
Walt Hampton””
In fact, according to the Department of Justice: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/ovracetab.htm,
from 1976-2002, Black-on-White homicide totaled 26,727 White victims, while during that same time period, White-on-Black homicide totaled 9844 Black victims. And, this is just homicide, as bad as this is. His point is well taken. Can anyone say O.J. and Nicole?And do an internet search with the phrase “Tackaberry case in Palm Beach County”. Black woman murders White grandmother and cuts throat of her half-breed grandson. Check it out.
I believe that passing H-3588 will indicate that our state government listens to and respects the opinions of all South Carolinians. Michael Rodgers
======================================================
Mr. Rodgers, by definition passing that bill will prove that the State DOES NOT LISTEN to and RESPECT ALL the opinions of South Carolinians. Because, obviously, there are many hundreds of thousands of South Carolinians who desire the status quo. Maybe even a million or so. This bill says their voice, their concerns do not count. What it does say is that mostly the Black voice counts, and those who probably moved from yankeeland. I have an idea, Mike. How about polling only those fine people who have ancestry in the State going back at least to the times of the War Between The States, including the Black population. These are the ones who have a dog in this fight. All others would not count.
Think this can be done?
The Confederate States of America and the Old South was a classical civilization with colleges and universities, art and literature, world class architecture, politics with superior statesmen, and a fine military. It was driven by slave labor just as the classical civilizations of Egypt, Greece, and Rome were. Regardless, slavery was a dying institution and virtually all educated Southerners knew this. It had ended peacefully in the rest of the Western Hemisphere but in America the Northern radicals, fanatics, zealots, and industrialists used it as a scapegoat to attack and subjugate the Southern states for the cause of empire and to exploit the South’s resources. The famous English writer Charles Dickens stated ” The Northern onslaught upon Southern slavery is a specious piece of humbug designed to mask their desire for the economic control of the Southern States”. The Confederacy deserves to be honored, remembered and respected.
The Confederate Flag and the United States Flag are judged by different standards and criteria, and are not held to the same levels of accountability. In analytical science and weights and measures, comparisons are made against known standards. However, in politics comparisons are never made in a fair and impartial manner. Political Correctness has been used to attempt bans of The Confederate Flag from schools, parades, public and private property, and even historical monuments and sites.
The Confederate flag represents Constitutional Limited Federal Government, States Rights, Resistance to Government Tyranny, and Christian Values and Principles. To say that it represents racism and bigotry is a negative and shallow interpretation comparable to saying the U.S. flag represents the genocide of the American Indians and abortion.
Hypocrisy, ignorance, and bias have been directed against the Confederate Flag. Compare the U.S. Flag (Stars and Stripes). The genocide and racial cleansing of the American Indians took place under the U.S. Flag. Their land was taken without fair and just compensation. Indians died by the thousands as they were forced on to reservations and subjected to starvation and deadly diseases. In the American West, cavalry troopers murdered entire villages including babies in their mother’s arms.
Slaves were imported from Africa to America primarily by five Northern States: New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. New York City had the second highest slave population in America. The Confederate Flag was not involved in the importation of slaves. Finally, the U.S. Flag flies over a nation that has murdered an estimated 50 million babies by abortion.
Yes, the CSA had the institution of slavery but most were treated well and it was a dying institution prior to the war. White factory workers in the North were not treated as well as most Southern slaves. For proof of this view the movie “Gangs Of New York”. Yes, various hate groups have misused and abused the Confederate flag but they have done the same to the U.S. flag. The Confederate flag is 180 degrees diametrically opposed to Globalism, Socialism and Secular humanism. That is the real reason globalists, socialists, and atheists want to ban it. The infamous Communist Vladmir Lenin coined the term “Useful Idiots”. The Socialist Karl Marx stated “People separated from their heritage are easily persuaded”. Many Black Americans and White Liberals who are opposed to the Confederate flag have been indoctrinated by those who would convert America to Total Socialism and Secular Humanism. They have been told that the Confederate flag represents a painful reminder of slavery and racism and bigotry and that they should be offended by it. They are being used as “useful idiots”.
The One Cause of the Civil War-Northern Aggression
Historians have long debated the causes of the civil war and the Southern perspective differs greatly from the Northern perspective. Based upon the study of original documents of the War Between The States (Civil War) era and facts and information published by Confederate Veterans, Confederate Chaplains, Southern writers and Southern Historians before, during, and after the war, I present the facts, opinions, and conclusions stated in the following article.
Technically the 10 causes listed are reasons for Southern secession. The only cause of the war was that the South was invaded and responded to Northern aggression.
I respectfully disagree with those who claim that the War Between the States was fought over slavery or that the abolition of slavery in the Revolutionary Era or early Federal period would have prevented war. It is my opinion that war was inevitable between the North and South due to complex political and cultural differences. The famous Englishman Winston Churchill stated that the war between the North and South was one of the most unpreventable wars in history. The Cause that the Confederate States of America fought for (1861-1865) was Southern Independence from the United States of America. Many parallels exist between the War for American Independence (1775-1783) and the War for Southern Independence (1861-1865).
There were 10 political causes of the war (causes of Southern Secession) —one of which was slavery— which was a scapegoat for all the differences that existed between the North and South. The Northern industrialists had wanted a war since about 1830 to get the South’s resources (land-cotton-coal-timber-minerals) for pennies on the dollar. All wars are economic and are always between centralists and decentralists. The North would have found an excuse to invade the South even if slavery had never existed.
A war almost occurred during 1828-1832 over the tariff when South Carolina passed nullification laws. The U.S. congress had increased the tariff rate on imported products to 40% (known as the tariff of abominations in Southern States). This crisis had nothing to do with slavery. If slavery had never existed –period–or had been eliminated at the time the Declaration of Independence was written in 1776 or anytime prior to 1860 it is my opinion that there would still have been a war sooner or later.
On a human level there were 5 causes of the war–New England Greed-New England Radicals–New England Fanatics–New England Zealots–and New England Hypocrites. During “So Called Reconstruction” ( 1865-1877 ) the New England Industrialists got what they had really wanted for 40 years–THE SOUTH’S RESOURCES FOR PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR. It was a political coalition between the New England economic interests and the New England radicals, fanatics and zealots that caused Southern secession to be necessary for economic survival and safety of the population.
1. TARIFF
Prior to the war about 75% of the money to operate the Federal Government was derived from the Southern States via an unfair sectional tariff on imported goods and 50% of the total 75% was from just 4 Southern states–Virginia-North Carolina–South Carolina and Georgia. Only 10%–20% of this tax money was being returned to the South. The Southern states were being treated as an agricultural colony of the North and bled dry. John Randolph of Virginia’s remarks in opposition to the tariff of 1820 demonstrates that fact. The North claimed that they fought the war to preserve the Union but the New England Industrialists who were in control of the North were actually supporting preservation of the Union to maintain and increase revenue from the tariff. The industrialists wanted the South to pay for the industrialization of America at no expense to them. Revenue bills introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives prior to the War Between the States were biased, unfair and inflammatory to the South. Abraham Lincoln had promised the Northern industrialists that he would increase the tariff rate if he was elected president of the United States. Lincoln increased the rate to a level that exceeded even the “Tariff of Abominations” 40% rate that had so infuriated the South during the 1828-1832 eras (between 50 and 51% on iron goods). The election of a president that was Anti-Southern on all issues and politically associated with the New England industrialists, fanatics, and zealots brought about the Southern secession movement.
2. CENTRALIZATION VERSUS STATES RIGHTS
The United States of America was founded as a Constitutional Federal Republic in 1789 composed of a Limited Federal Government and Sovereign States. The North wanted to and did alter the form of Government this nation was founded upon. The Confederate States of America fought to preserve Constitutional Limited Federal Government as established by America’s founding fathers who were primarily Southern Gentlemen from Virginia. Thus Confederate soldiers were fighting for rights that had been paid for in blood by their forefathers upon the battlefields of the American Revolution. Abraham Lincoln had a blatant disregard for The Constitution of the United States of America. His War of aggression Against the South changed America from a Constitutional Federal Republic to a Democracy ( with Socialist leanings ) and broke the original Constitution. The infamous Socialist Karl Marx sent Lincoln a letter of congratulations after his reelection in 1864. A considerable number of European Socialists came to America and fought for the Union (North).
3. CHRISTIANITY VERSUS SECULAR HUMANISM
The South believed in basic Christianity as presented in the Holy Bible. The North had many Secular Humanists (atheists, transcendentalists and non-Christians). Southerners were afraid of what kind of country America might become if the North had its way. Secular Humanism is the belief that there is no God and that man, science and government can solve all problems. This philosophy advocates human rather than religious values. Reference: Frank Conner’s book “The South under Siege 1830-2000.”
4. CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
Southerners and Northerners were of different Genetic Lineage’s. Southerners were primarily of Western English (original Britons), Scottish, and Irish lineage (Celtic) whereas Northerners tended to be of Anglo-Saxon and Danish (Viking) extraction. The two cultures had been at war and at odds for over 1000 years before they arrived in America. Our ancient ancestors in Western England under King Arthur humbled the Saxon princes at the battle of Baden Hill (circa 497 AD –516 AD). The cultural differences that contributed to the War Between the States (1861-1865) had existed for 1500 years or more.
5. CONTROL OF WESTERN TERRITORIES
The North wanted to control Western States and Territories such as Kansas and Nebraska. New England formed Immigrant Aid Societies and sent settlers to these areas that were politically attached to the North. They passed laws against slavery that Southerners considered punitive. These political actions told Southerners they were not welcome in the new states and territories. It was all about control–slavery was a scapegoat.
6. NORTHERN INDUSTRIALISTS WANTED THE SOUTH’S RESOURCES
The Northern Industrialists wanted a war to use as an excuse to get the South’s resources for pennies on the dollar. They began a campaign about 1830 that would influence the common people of the North and create enmity that would allow them to go to war against the South. These Northern Industrialists brought up a morality claim against the South alleging the evils of slavery. The Northern Hypocrites conveniently neglected to publicize the fact that 5 New England States (Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and New York ) were primarily responsible for the importation of most of the slaves from Africa to America. These states had both private and state owned fleets of ships.
7. SLANDER OF THE SOUTH BY NORTHERN NEWSPAPERS
This political cause ties in to the above listed efforts by New England Industrialists. Beginning about 1830 the Northern Newspapers began to slander the South. The Industrialists used this tool to indoctrinate the common people of the North. They used slavery as a scapegoat and brought the morality claim up to a feverish pitch. Southerners became tired of reading in the Northern Newspapers about what bad and evil people they were just because their neighbor down the road had a few slaves. This propaganda campaign created hostility between the ordinary citizens of the two regions and created the animosity necessary for war. The Northern Industrialists worked poor whites in the factories of the North under terrible conditions for 18 hours a day (including children). When the workers became old and infirm they were fired. It is a historical fact that during this era there were thousands of old people living homeless on the streets in the cities of the North. In the South a slave was cared for from birth to death. Also the diet and living conditions of Southern slaves was superior to that of most white Northern factory workers. Southerners deeply resented this New England hypocrisy and slander.
8. NEW ENGLANDERS ATTEMPTED TO INSTIGATE MASSIVE SLAVE REBELLIONS IN THE SOUTH
Abolitionists were a small but vocal and militant group in New England who demanded instant abolition of slavery in the South. These fanatics and zealots were calling for massive slave uprisings that would result in the murder of Southern men, women and children. Southerners were aware that such an uprising had occurred in Santa Domingo in the 1790 era and that the French (white) population had been massacred. The abolitionists published a terrorist manifesto and tried to smuggle 100,000 copies into the South showing slaves how to murder their masters at night. Then when John Brown raided Harpers Ferry, Virginia in 1859 the political situation became inflammatory. Prior to this event there had been more abolition societies in the South than in the North. Lincoln and most of the Republican Party (64 members of congress) had adopted a political platform in support of terrorist acts against the South. Some (allegedly including Lincoln) had contributed monetarily as supporters of John Brown’s terrorist activities. Again slavery was used as a scapegoat for all differences that existed between the North and South.
9. SLAVERY
Indirectly slavery was a cause of the war. Most Southerners did not own slaves and would not have fought for the protection of slavery. However they believed that the North had no Constitutional right to free slaves held by citizens of Sovereign Southern States. Prior to the war there were five times as many abolition societies in the South as in the North. Virtually all educated Southerners were in favor of gradual emancipation of slaves. Gradual emancipation would have allowed the economy and labor system of the South to gradually adjust to a free paid labor system without economic collapse. Furthermore, since the New England States were responsible for the development of slavery in America, Southerners saw the morality claims by the North as blatant hypocrisy. The first state to legalize slavery had been Massachusetts in 1641 and this law was directed primarily at Indians. In colonial times the economic infrastructure of the port cities of the North was dependent upon the slave trade. The first slave ship in America, “THE DESIRE”, was fitted out in Marblehead, Massachusetts. Further proof that Southerners were not fighting to preserve slavery is found in the diary of an officer in the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. He stated that “he had never met a man in the Army of Northern Virginia that claimed he was fighting to preserve slavery”. If the war had been over slavery, the composition of the politicians, officers, enlisted men, and even African Americans would have been different. Confederate General Robert E. Lee had freed his slaves (Custis Washington estate) prior to 1863 whereas Union General Grant’s wife Julia did not free her slaves until after the war when forced to do so by the 13th amendment to the constitution. Grant even stated that if the abolitionists claimed he was fighting to free slaves that he would offer his services to the South. Mildred Lewis Rutherford (1852-1928) was for many years the historian for the United Daughters Of The Confederacy (UDC). In her book Truths Of History she stated that there were more slaveholders in the Union Army (315,000) than the Confederate Army (200,000). Statistics and estimates also show that about 300,000 blacks supported the Confederacy versus about 200,000 for the Union. Clearly the war would have been fought along different lines if it had been fought over slavery. The famous English author Charles Dickens stated “the Northern onslaught upon Southern slavery is a specious piece of humbug designed to mask their desire for the economic control of the Southern states.”
10. NORTHERN AGGRESSION AGAINST SOUTHERN STATES
Proof that Abraham Lincoln wanted war may be found in the manner he handled the Fort Sumter incident. Original correspondence between Lincoln and Naval Captain G.V.Fox shows proof that Lincoln acted with deceit and willfully provoked South Carolina into firing on the fort (A TARIFF COLLECTION FACILITY). It was politically important that the South be provoked into firing the first shot so that Lincoln could claim the Confederacy started the war. Additional proof that Lincoln wanted war is the fact that Lincoln refused to meet with a Confederate peace delegation. They remained in Washington for 30 days and returned to Richmond only after it became apparent that Lincoln wanted war and refused to meet and discuss a peace agreement. After setting up the Fort Sumter incident for the purpose of starting a war, Lincoln called for 75,000 troops to put down what he called a rebellion. He intended to march Union troops across Virginia and North Carolina to attack South Carolina. Virginia and North Carolina were not going to allow such an unconstitutional and criminal act of aggression against a sovereign sister Southern State. Lincoln’s act of aggression caused the secession of the upper Southern States.
On April 17th 1861, Governor Letcher of Virginia sent this message to Washington DC: “I have only to say that the militia of Virginia will not be furnished to the powers of Washington for any such use or purpose as they have in view. Your object is to subjugate the Southern states and the requisition made upon me for such a object-an object in my judgement not within the purview of the constitution or the act of 1795, will not be complied with. You have chosen to inaugurate civil war; having done so we will meet you in a spirit as determined as the administration has exhibited toward the South.”
The WAR BETWEEN THE STATES 1861-1865 occurred due to many complex causes and factors as enumerated above. Those who make claims that “the war was over slavery” or that if slavery had been abolished in 1776 when the Declaration of Independence was signed or in 1789 when The Constitution of the United States of America was signed, that war would not have occurred between North and South are being very simplistic in their views and opinions.
The following conversation between English ship Captain Hillyar and Capt. Raphael Semmes-Confederate Ship CSS Sumter (and after 1862 CSS Alabama) occurred during the war on August 5th, 1861. It is a summary from a well-educated Southerner who is stating his reasons for fighting. Captain Hillyar expressed surprised at Captain Semme’s contention that the people of the South were “defending ourselves against robbers with knives at our throats”, and asked for further clarification as to how this was so, the exchange below occurred. I especially was impressed with Semmes’ assessment of Yankee motives – the creation of “Empire”!
Semmes: “Simply that the machinery of the Federal Government, under which we have lived, and which was designed for the common benefit, has been made the means of despoiling the South, to enrich the North”, and I explained to him the workings of the iniquitous tariffs, under the operation of which the South had, in effect, been reduced to a dependent colonial condition, almost as abject as that of the Roman provinces, under their proconsuls; the only difference being, that smooth-faced hypocrisy had been added to robbery, inasmuch as we had been plundered under the forms of law”
Captain Hillyar: “All this is new to me”, replied the captain. “I thought that your war had arisen out of the slavery question”.
Semmes: “That is the common mistake of foreigners. The enemy has taken pains to impress foreign nations with this false view of the case. With the exception of a few honest zealots, the canting hypocritical Yankee cares as little for our slaves as he does for our draught animals. The war which he has been making upon slavery for the last 40 years is only an interlude, or by-play, to help on the main action of the drama, which is Empire; and it is a curious coincidence that it was commenced about the time the North began to rob the South by means of its tariffs. When a burglar designs to enter a dwelling for the purpose of robbery, he provides himself with the necessary implements. The slavery question was one of the implements employed to help on the robbery of the South. It strengthened the Northern party, and enabled them to get their tariffs through Congress; and when at length, the South, driven to the wall, turned, as even the crushed worm will turn, it was cunningly perceived by the Northern men that ‘No slavery’ would be a popular war-cry, and hence, they used it.
It is true that we are defending our slave property, but we are defending it no more than any other species of our property – it is all endangered, under a general system of robbery. We are in fact, fighting for independence. The Union victory in 1865 destroyed the right of secession in America, which had been so cherished by America’s founding fathers as the principle of their revolution. British historian and political philosopher Lord Acton, one of the most intellectual figures in Victorian England, understood the deeper meaning of Southern defeat. In a letter to former Confederate General Robert E. Lee dated November 4, 1866, Lord Acton wrote “I saw in States Rights the only available check upon the absolutism of the sovereign will, and secession filled me with hope, not as the destruction but as the redemption of Democracy. I deemed you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization and I mourn for that which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo (defeat of Napoleon). As Illinois Governor Richard Yates stated in a message to his state assembly on January 2, 1865, the war had “tended, more than any other event in the history of the country, to militate against the Jeffersonian Ideal ( Thomas Jefferson ) that the best government is that which governs least.
Years after the war former Confederate president Jefferson Davis stated “I Am saddened to Hear Southerners Apologize For Fighting To Preserve Our Inheritance”. Some years later former U.S. president Theodore Roosevelt stated “Those Who Will Not Fight For The Graves Of Their Ancestors Are Beyond Redemption”.
James W. King
Past Commander Camp 141
Lt. Col. Thomas M. Nelson
Sons of Confederate Veterans
Albany, Georgia
jkingantiquearms@bellsouth.net
“So, if anything, H-3588 makes removing monuments more difficult, not less.”
Your bill, in this particular context, is totally redundant and entirely
uncalled for. The compromise of 2000 which placed the flag where it now
flies also provides protection for Confederate monuments not only on the
Capitol grounds, but also across the entire state.
“The claim that passing H-3588 would logically lead to the extermination
‘of every last Caucasian Man, woman, and child in SC’ is beyond ridiculous.”
Not so. The Whites of Rhodesia compromised control of their nation by
legislative nonsense similiar to your bill, to their Negroes. Subsequently,
those Whites who did not flee for their lives were butchered on their own
farms and today that country is an economic basket case. The Whites of
South Africa also lost their will to live, and today that country is the
AIDs and rape capital of the industrialized world. Although the same cannot
be said for the White civilization of Hispaniola, they did allow into their
society this nonsense of “fraternity and equality” imported from the French
Revolution to infect their Negroes with the idea that they were somehow on
an even par with their White masters, and were simply butchered.
In our own time, American Negroes have been fed this same nonsense for two
generations now – and similarly – American Whites are being slaughtered
in a like manner. The masses of American Whites are totally unaware of this
race war because the masters of the controlled media only give local coverage
to the Black-on-White massacre – thereby rendering those Whites outside of
that particular geographical area totally unaware of what has happened – while
providing complete national coverage of what few White-on-Black crimes that
do occur. How many Whites are aware of the slaughter of our kinfolk in the
Knoxville and Wichita Massacres, and how many have NOT been overwhelmed with
unending deluge of Rodney King and Jasper Texas.
Will H-3588 bring SC Whites to the realization of the race war that is being
waged against us? If it does, then it will truly be a blessing in disguise.
“Our state flag flies from the dome to represent all of us, and the Confederate
flag flies from Statehouse grounds to confuse and divide all of us.”
The rest of your diatribe seems to revolve about this central premise. Who or
what is exactly “us?” Generally speaking, 2/3rds of SC consists of Whites,
and the remaining 1/3rd are Negroes. It has been my observation as a lifelong
resident of SC that the majority of Whites here have no particular animosity
towards Negroes or any other race, so long as we can remain unmolested by them.
Since the end of segregation, a relentless race war has been waged against our
people, and I think that as a people we are slowly coming to the realization
that interracial societies are inherently unstable, and by sheer weight of
inerta, will tip in favor of one race or the other.
Whites need to come to the realization that when we relinquish control of the
societies we have created, the ultimate result will be the demise and extinction
of our people. The attacks on our monuments, flags, and symbols are only the
opening salvos of the White blood that will surely be shed, unless we as a people
stand up and say “enough,” retake our society, and secure the existance of our
people and a future for White children.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to repost this. Due to a computer glitch, thought the original post had been deleted, due to its “controversal” nature. Nice to see that it hasn’t. Could it be possible that free speech is really alive and well at The State?
“So it is about racism after all, isn’t it.”
Of course…or to be more specific…the reality of race.
“Southerners were aware that such an uprising had occurred in Santa Domingo in the 1790 era and that the French (white) population had been massacred.”
Good point, Mr. King which I am sure, Mr. Warthern and Mr. Rogers would rather not have us dwell on.
Mr. King,
We’ve already decided that SC should honor the Confederate soldiers. In 2000, with the “compromise,” we decided that the Confederate Soldier Monument must stay on Statehouse grounds and that our state must commemorate Confederate Memorial Day.
Since 2000, we’ve realized that flying the Confederate flag year-round from a flagpole out in front of the Statehouse, near the Confederate Soldier Monument, is an action so confusing and divisive that it actually detracts from our intended message of honor. Therefore, H-3588 has been proposed to clarify the compromise and thus complete it.
Clearing up the confusion will be very good for SC in many areas including race relations and economic development, and those are two additional reasons to pass H-3588. Finally, let me stress once again that we’re not changing the message of the compromise. We’re just making it more able to be heard.
Sincerely,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Mr. Shirley,
Maybe we could require people to take a literacy test on the Civil War before they were allowed to speak about this issue? Maybe we could require people to pay some sort of a poll tax so that they could obtain the required reading materials before being allowed to vote?
No, my friend, what has happened is that our state legislature, beginning in 1961 and continuing ’til today, has said that it is their responsibility to define, defend, and deploy the Confederate flag. Why they did this, I don’t know — we already have a beautiful state flag that has strong ties to the Confederacy and to everyone in our state. But, if our state legislature defines, defends, and deploys the Confederate flag correctly and appropriately with H-3588, then it’s good.
Our state legislature represents all the people of SC. Every registered voter here in SC gets to vote and everyone has freedom of speech to voice their opinion. In a republican democracy, we all get to vote for our state legislators, and they make collective decisions based on our input.
With H-3588, our legislators are hearing that SC agrees with the decision to honor the Confederate soldiers and that SC wants the legislators to act to clarify the message. H-3588 listens to and respects both points of view and arrives at a win-win solution.
I look forward to commemorating Confederate Memorial Day with you when you come to Columbia. You will see the Confederate flag flying from Statehouse grounds, and you will get to read the beautiful inscriptions on the Confederate Soldier Monument. Please let me know your travel plans so I can meet up with you and buy you a cup of coffee or something.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Mr. Hampton and others,
Your arguments echo South Carolina’s Declaration of Secession, which stated, “They [the non-slaveholding states] have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes, and those who remain have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.”
A lot has happened since December 20, 1860, and we have learned in America the following, as eloquently expressed by U.S. Senator Barack Obama:
“For alongside our famous individualism, there’s another ingredient in the American saga, a belief that we are all connected as one people. … It is that fundamental belief — it is that fundamental belief — I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sisters’ keeper — that makes this country work. It’s what allows us to pursue our individual dreams, yet still come together as a single American family: ‘E pluribus unum,’ out of many, one.
“Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there’s not a liberal America and a conservative America; there’s the United States of America. There’s not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there’s the United States of America.”
Mr. Hampton disagrees. He has expressed his opinion that South Carolinians consist of two distinct groups, Blacks and Whites, and that, since Whites outnumber Blacks 2 to 1, Whites should rule over Blacks, and not only rule, but rule in such a way as to make sure that Blacks never ever think that they are on an even par with Whites, in order to prevent insurrection that leads to violent slaughter of Whites by Blacks.
Mr. Hampton cited, as evidence for his insistence on this White-rule approach to governing, the instability and uprisings in Hispaniola, among other places — places where slaves or peasants (he called them Blacks), who were in the majority by 10 to 1 over the ruling Europeans (he called them Whites), fought back against their rulers.
These types of uprisings and insurrections are well-documented and well-understood. Amy Chua, a Yale Law School professor, wrote a book called World on Fire: How Exporting Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability that describes the conditions where ethnic/racial violence occur. The conditions are where the moneyed, powerful, ruling group is in the minority, and the group that is in the overwhelming majority is gracelessly and mercilessly ruled over. It’s an eye-opening book, and I highly recommend it.
The important thing to realize is that we don’t have these conditions in South Carolina. Moreover, the way to improve race relations in America is not to move towards Jim Crow, White-rule policies but away from them. After all, we are all part of a single American family: “E pluribus unum,” out of many, one.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Mr. Rogers has posted…
“…since Whites outnumber Blacks 2 to 1, Whites should rule over Blacks…” and he would be very hard put to find anywhere I made such an outlandish statement, because it doesn’t exist.
The whole thrust of my argument is the inherent instability of multi-racial societies and that by their very nature, are doomed to failure. Moreover, the inherent propensity of the Negro toward unrestrained violence makes this race totally unsuitable to live in close proximity to Whites.
The lessons of Hispaniola, Rhodesia, and South Africa are perfectly clear. Separation, not segregation…that is the solution…and the ONLY solution.
Mr. Hampton,
I’m sorry, sir, I really do not know what you are saying. I really am quite good at reading comprehension. So I will ask you please to make yourself more clear.
Are you suggesting that “Whites” should rule here in South Carolina? And if so, why? Are you suggesting that “Whites” forcibly require the mass exile of “Blacks?” And if so, why?
What do you mean by “separation” and how in the world do you suggest that such a ridiculous goal/task be accomplished?
By the way, what is your definition of “Whites?” Does it include English, French, German, Austrian, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Norwegian, Swedish, …? How much “Black” blood would you allow in your new homogeneous society?
I don’t know what your position is and each comment seems more outrageous and obscene than the next. Let me please state that I am very proud to live in a multiracial and multiethnic society. And I will also add that I opposed the partition plan for Iraq.
Finally, it seems to me that, in America, our diversity of people, of opinions, of approaches, of ideas, of policies, of everything has been, and will continue to be, our strength.
As a coda, I’ll quote U.S. Senator Lindsay Graham, “An American is an idea. No group owns being an American.”
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
Mr. Rogers has posted…
“I’m sorry, sir, I really do not know what you are saying,” and “I don’t know what your position is and each comment seems more outrageous and obscene than the next.”
I am very sorry Mr. Rogers, that you seem to find the concepts I have presented here to be such a challenge. Perhaps if I listed them in chronological sequence?
1. Whites in SC as well as across the nation as a whole have lost control of the societies we have created.
2. Whites face complete cultural and biological extinction due to massive unrestrictive
immigration from the non-White world and the wholesale slaughter of our people by alien racial groups presently inhabiting our living space.
3. Whites must collectively recognize that we are under attack and that we must respond by rediscovering our collective identity as a distinct people with our own
unique racial characteristics, retake and re-establish our collective identity upon the societies that we have created as a distinct people.
4. We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children.
As to your query, “By the way, what is your definition of ‘Whites?’” My previous assumption that you are a White man may have been an error. Recognizing such, perhaps the following will clear up this confusion for you:
White folk are subdivided into three major sub-racial divisions. They are (a) Nordic, (b) Alpine, and (c) Mediterranean. Within these subdivision are the various ethnicities. They are Pure Nordic, Pure Alpine, East Baltic,
Pure Mediterranean, Celtic, Dinaric, Predominantly Nordic, Nordic-Alpine, and Nordic-Mediterranean.
I hope this clarifies things for you.
As to your remark, “What do you mean by ‘separation’ and how in the world do you suggest that such a ridiculous goal/task be accomplished?,” my position is that it is a bit premature for we Whites to go about re-establishing our racial and cultural identities when we have already lost control of the societies we have created. However, one such idea put forward by an associate, I will place here.
Mind you, it is most certainly not MY idea and I see plenty of problems with it. However, it should give you some indication of the thinking we Whites need to do in order to bring our race back from the edge of extinction:
__________________________________________
Everything to the south and east of Columbia is already majority Negro, or will soon be so. We ought to just call this region Black Carolina. Negroes who live in the
central and western areas of the state and who are tired of White racism, whether real or just imagined should sell off whatever property they may have and move to the east and south of SC. If a few hundred thousand Negroes did this, they could go ahead and completely take over the area. They could elect Negro sheriffs to run virtually all counties. They could elect all Negro representatives to the U.S. Congress. They could send all Negro state representatives to represent them in Columbia. Also, this would frighten the hell out of the Whites living there, causing a massive White flight. Property values would plummet in the area, and Negroes could buy up some very valuable White real estate for a fraction of its present worth. Negroes could take over the courts, the judgeships, etc. and administer justice to their young Negro men as they see fit. This might mean turning loose thousands of Negro inmates in some of the state prisons located in the east and south of SC.
However, there would be no Whites there to intervene and no “white racism” to blame. Furthermore, the region is a vast agricultural region. Most Negroes are capable of farming, or learning to farm, and so they could sustain themselves in this manner and use cash crops like swine, tobacco, cotton, and poultry to earn cash from other regions or nations. Southeastern SC is there for the taking for Negroes. All it requires is some decent Negro leaders and the willingness for a few thousand Negro activists from the Upcountry to relocate there. Eventually the region might split away from SC and form a new Negro state: Black Carolina. Or, if they chose to remain a part of the present state, the region would still be known to one and all as Black Carolina.
The same principal applies to northwestern SC. This area is predominantly White, so it should become an exclusive homeland for racially conscious Whites. Let’s say
everything north and west of Columbia would become White Carolina, with the exception of Columbia itself. The people in the area would have a very hard time producing enough food to feed themselves, since the hilly and rocky soil makes large-scale farming impossible. So the region would have to rely upon manufacturing for its livelihood. But I’m sure it would do just fine. The word should go out that non-Whites are not welcome in White Carolina, and if some “racist redneck” tossed a Molotov cocktail up against the side of your house (if you were a non-White), the local law might have a real hard time ever figuring out who did it, much less arresting them or successfully prosecuting them. Non-whites living in the area would be wise to sell out early so they could get a just and fair price for their property.
No sense in staying where you are not wanted.
For all those people who believe that “diversity is our great strength”, they should move to the central Sandhills regions, basically the metro-Columbia-central SC area. There they could build their multi-racial utopia. White liberals and “responsible conservatives” could live there; so could Negroes who preferred a multi-racial area to an all-Negro one; Jews, Mexicans, Asians would all be welcome, too. Plus any and every sort of mixed-race person would find happiness and contentment in what we will just call South Carolina. Many of the state’s major universities are located in this region, along with the majority of industry, plus the best highways, etc. Plus, decent agriculture is possible in the central part of the state, so all the advantages would belong to this section.
White “racists” would be presented with the most difficult situation in the northwest: poor roads, little large industry; no large-scale agriculture; few major universities and significant cities. So those who hate us should be glad to give us this section of the state to be rid of us.
Now I don’t expect the governor or state legislature to take up this plan for dividing the state and solving our race problems. But each one of us can begin the process by packing up and moving to the region that most suits our outlook on life.
______________________________________
Now as I previously said, I think for Whites at present this is a bit like putting the cart before the horse as we are having a hell of a time even hanging onto our cultural
symbols, monuments, and flags.
It should underscore the monumental task ahead for we Whites in the battle for the survival and redemption of our race.
All,
In South Carolina, we do not fly the Confederate flag to endorse the current or future goals of separatists, supremacists, and/or secessionists. We fly it solely to honor the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers. H-3588 makes this message clear. Please support H-3588. Thank you.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
“In South Carolina, we do not fly the Confederate flag to endorse the current or future goals of separatists, supremacists, and/or secessionists.”
Who says? You? Take another guess, pal. It is still there.
Leftists don’t just hate the flags of the South. They hate all the culture of the South, and its heritage from the Scots, Irish, Germans and Jews.
Pass H-3588 this year, and next year a new set of radicals will be back with another law, for a new “compromise”, removing more statues, road signs, and museum displays, to destroy more of our cultural heritage.
These people are dishonest. You cannot deal with them.
“These people are dishonest. You cannot deal with them.”
They are worse than that. They are out-and-out criminals! Who else but such would turn a blind eye to the Black-on-White slaughter going on by pretending that it’s not happening?
All,
Let’s judge H-3588 on the merits. This is what people do to build trust — they focus on the issue. President Reagan would call Mikhail Gorbachev his friend, and he would also call the Soviet Union the evil empire. President Reagan coined the phrase, “Trust, but verify.” By focusing on the issue, all parties can learn to trust one another. Sen. Glenn McConnell never reached agreement with the NAACP. The NAACP’s original resolution on this matter has not been satisfied. When we satisfy their request, then we can see if they hold up their end of the bargain. Not until.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
It’s so amazing to me to see how much people seem to hate the NAACP. This hate reminds me of how we in the USA were taught to hate the USSR during the Cold War.
Ronald Reagan taught us that hate wasn’t the way to go. I hope that the people who hate the NAACP can figure out that they should treat their fellow citizens with kindness and respect. After all, the NAACP’s interest in this issue is part of their Campaign for Dignity, not a Campaign to Destroy “Our Cultural Heritage,” as Lee Muller views it.
I like the NAACP, and their feedback on the “compromise” is correct. They say that the current situation is confusing about sovereignty and confusing about public policy. They say nothing about monuments.
H-3588 respects “heritage,” and it does so in a way that enables all of SC to celebrate Confederate Memorial Day. With H-3588, we can complete the compromise with clarity and celebrate our cooperation with an annual commemoration of Confederate Memorial Day — complete with a Confederate flag flying ceremony.
If we pass H-3588, which is a bill that is good for all of us in South Carolina, then we can deal with any “set of radicals” who might try to “destroy our cultural heritage,” as Lee Muller put it. Such efforts will have fierce opposition and very little support. Please think, will the NCAA impose a ban on SC about a road sign somewhere? Of course not.
Finally, we shouldn’t let hate, spite, or fear stop us from considering H-3588 on the merits. It’s a good bill that deserves widespread support. Please consider it on the merits and support it. Thank you.
Michael,
When the NAACP and other radicals propose another law to remove statues, historical markers and street names honoring the Confederate soldiers, will you be there fighting it, or fighting for it as another “compromise”?
Western civilization is tired of compromising with vandals, hate-mongers and racists.
Lee,
I’ve answered you on this topic several times before, and my answer hasn’t changed. I will not support laws to “remove statues, historical markers and street names honoring the Confederate soldiers.”
Additionally, I think it’s quite clear that the NCAA will not call for a predetermined-location playoff ban to force such laws to be passed. Also, I think it’s quite clear that the NAACP will not call for an economic boycott to force such laws to be passed.
Importantly, the NAACP did not ask for monuments, historical markers or street signs to be removed or renamed in its original resolution.
Passing H-3588 completes the compromise with clarity. Then it’s done, and that’s the end. With H-3588, we’ve clarified the message so that everybody knows that SC does not support the appropriation of the Confederate flag by “vandals, hate-mongers and racists.”
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
You avoiding the second part of the question:
Will you fight to make H-3588 the last “compromise” on this phony flag issue?
Even if we believe you, Michael, you don’t speak for the other radicals who want to remove all traces of Southern heritage. My experience is that you folks melt into the woodwork as soon as your phase of destruction is completed.
Liberals today are socialists, heirs to Bolshevism. Like radical Muslims, they accept lying, and physical force as legitimate means to their ends.
“I will not support laws to “remove statues, historical markers and street names honoring the Confederate soldiers.”
Really???
Isn’t the current location of the flag just that Mr. Rodgers?
How about we take the flag of the Iwo Jima Monument off and leave it that way so it wont offend our Muslim citizens or those of Japanese heritage?? Would that be ok?
How about we take down the Lincoln Memorial since it offends some because of all the illegal things Lincoln did while in office…Suspension of the writ of habeas corpus,invading the South without consulting Congress,arresting and imprisoning,without trial,editors and publishers who disageed with him,censorship,creating several new states without their consent,interfereing with elections in the North with military troops….etc….Would that be OK?.No…you wouldn’t stand for that!
NO!!!! Mr. Rodgers I will NOT support that bill! No matter how many times you say “oh….it’ll be the last time”
And for a personal word to Justsayin “(Maybe “they” would have less bitching to do next if your generations parents and grandparents hadn’t been racist bastards.” I am giving you a personal invitation to Summerville SC to malign my family past or present at a face to face meeting. My Family has been here since the early 1700’s and were one of the founding families of Orangeburg and were Generals in the American Revolution,and I am Damn Proud of them and More than willing to discuss how seriously I take Family Pride up close and personal with you! Of course it shouldn’t surprise me that a person like you would lower themselves to personal attacks since your facts and arguements dont hold water…thats called ignorant cowardice.
Sorry to repost but I suggest reading The Real Lincoln by Thomas J.DiLorenzo for an unbiased,footnoted fact not fiction eye opener that hasn’t bought into revisionist history. That would be for those who want verifiable facts not pablum spoonfed to them.
Lee,
I keep telling you, H-3588 is additive, not destructive.
First, H-3588 places the state flag at the flagpole near the Confederate Soldier Monument, in place of the Confederate flag, and this action is additive in that it associates the state flag with the Confederate Soldier Monument — no such association is made currently, even though our state flag was obviously very important to the Confederate soldiers.
Second, H-3588 flies the Confederate flag on Confederate Memorial Day, making that day more special, which again is additive. On this special day, we will have huge, well-attended commemorations to honor the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers. We can advertise this annual event in our travel guides and on our state government website.
Finally — and this is what’s most important to me — H-3588 as a whole is additive in that it provides clarity as to why we fly the flag, and currently the clarity is absent. H-3588 declares that we do not fly the Confederate flag to endorse the current or future goals of separatists, supremacists, and/or secessionists. We fly it solely to honor the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers.
Yes, Lee, not only will I not support laws to “remove statues, historical markers and street names honoring the Confederate soldiers,” I will also fight against all such laws. In South Carolina, there will always be fierce opposition to laws that are destructive. H-3588 is not a destructive law. I hope that you will support it. Thank you.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
How are you going to stop the other radicals from trying to remove statues, historical markers and street names honoring the Confederate soldiers?
Until you come up with a plan, you look like one of those radicals. That’s why you and H-3588 have no credibility.
We already do not fly the Confederate flag to endorse the current or future goals of separatists, supremacists, and/or secessionists. We fly it solely to honor the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers. We don’t need H-3588.
“H-3588 declares that we do not fly the Confederate flag to endorse the current or future goals of separatists, supremacists, and/or secessionists,” which is a very crafty application of the old additive of ‘divide and conquer’ by attempting to divorce the Confederates from their cause, thereby rendering their descendants (contemporary Whites) culturally impotent and devoid of our history.
Lee,
Your suggestion that the NAACP will have a boycott and that the NCAA will have a ban on South Carolina in order to try to force a change in the name of some road sign somewhere or to force some monument to be destroyed is a suggestion that lacks credibility.
Flags are vastly more powerful than signs and monuments, and people react viscerally to flying flags because flying flags are living weapons. The power of flags is what has motivated the boycott and the ban, and the suggestion that a monument or a road sign would generate such boycotts or bans is not credible.
Moreover, it’s been almost 10 years since the NAACP’s original resolution that called for the tourism boycott. They didn’t say anything about monuments or road signs in the original resolution, and they haven’t ever added anything about monuments or road signs to the reason for their boycott.
The NAACP’s boycott is solely about the flying of the Confederate flag from Statehouse grounds. The NCAA’s ban is also solely about the flying of the Confederate flag from Statehouse grounds.
Your monuments and road signs argument has always been a straw man argument, and it looks more and more like a straw man argument every day. The monuments and road signs were protected in 2000 with the compromise, and there’s no evidence that the NAACP or the NCAA would try to force any action to overturn that legislation.
You’re right, finally, that H-3588 does not change the message that our legislature agreed on with the compromise. H-3588 sends the same message: “We fly the Confederate flag solely to honor the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers.” The problem that H-3588 solves — and this is why we need H-3588 — is that people are confused about the message.
And when I say people, I mean everyone but you, me and Sen. McConnell. For example, do you think that Mr. Hampton is hearing the right message?
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
The NAACP can’t guarantee that they won’t move to removing the monuments next.
They already backed out of the first compromise on the flag and called for this boycott.
They already have members running around calling for destruction of monuments and road signs for the last 20 years.
They are liars. They are hate-mongers. They have no credibility among normal people.
Lee,
Do you think that Mr. Hampton is hearing the right message?
Is there any way can get our state legislature to clarify the message?
Please answer these questions.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
“They are liars. They are hate-mongers. They have no credibility among normal people.”
Bravo! Couldn’t have said it better myself!
I don’t know what you mean by, “hearing the right message”. We keep telling you that no sane, honest person trusts the NAACP or the legislature to keep its word, so we would be stupid to compromise with them AGAIN.
This is not a real issue. It was created to cover up the NAACP scandals, divert attention, and raise money to replace the millions stolen by the NAACP leadership who were sentenced to prison.
As I read quickly through these posts it becomes clear to me once again that reasoned argument with right-wing zealots like Lee Muller and others who have posted here is truly a waste of time–a dialogue of the deaf. The quicker Obama wins the presidency and Congress returns to a decisive Democratic majority, the better it will be for America (unless, of course, the Republicans steal the election as they did in 2000; just think, if Gore had been president, we never would have begun the magnificently conceived and brilliantly executed war in Iraq!!).
There’s just no point in arguing with the religious right (the prophecy crowd especially) and the heritage fanatics who want to turn the clock in SC back at least a century.
It’s hot. Sweet tea, anybody?
“There’s just no point in arguing with the religious right…” Agreed. After all, they seem to be among the forefront of the racial-mixing and miscegenation crowd. I cannot count the number of times I heard these peole describe the Confederate flag as “St. Andrews’ cross!”
Rich,
I was working to register black voters and secure civil rights for them in the early 1970s. I am far more liberal than most of you folks, but it is real liberalism and tolerance, not the socialism and guilt-trip racism of modern white “progressives” who think they have to take care of blacks and appoint their tribal leaders.
Obama is a racist, continually playing the race card.
Reject racism.
Reject Obama.
Rich,
I see you posting under several different names.
You are Richard Lussier, who helped develop a curriculum to use on white students to change their perception of the South, the Confederacy and specifically the flag controversy. I just ordered a copy of your curriculum and the results of your experiment where, “The unit was taught in a conservative, rural, working-class, majority White, upstate South Carolina school setting.” 1.(your words).
Why don’t you just honestly discuss your attitudes and agenda, and save me the trouble?
1. Schramm-Pate, Susan L.
Lussier, Richard.
Teaching Students How to Think Critically: The Confederate Flag Controversy in the High School Social Studies Classroom
The High School Journal – Volume 87, Number 2, December 2003-January 2004, pp. 56-65
The University of North Carolina Press
Yup. That’s me. I also have a book chapter in: Schramm-Pate, S. & Jeffries, R. (eds.) Grappling with diversity. New York: State University of New York Press, 2008.
In that chapter I deal with helping students overcome racist attitudes toward ethnic and linguistic minorities by means of world language study. I was teaching at Saluda High School at the time (2001-04). I now work in RSD2–an enlightened school district committed to diversity and intercultural respect for difference.
The Confederate Battle Flag is inextricably associated with racism in the minds of African Americans. It is a southern symbol that excludes them as southerners since it represents not just secession from the Union (I like that designation for our country very much since it stresses our federal nature) but the slaveholders who rebelled against the federal government in 1860 precisely to maintain their “peculiar way of life.” And what was at the heart of that way of life? Slavery. We would not have fought the civil war simply over a tariff squabble.
Since the battle flag is fraught with so many contradictory and controversial meanings, it should be in a museum. Even private displays on flagpoles in yards say something to the people who see it from the road.
If you had a black person on your front porch (and that’s a big IF for some white people), what kind of a message about you and your values would you want him/her to take away?
I’ve got news for you. I not only want to see the flag down from the front of the state house; I’d like to see the soldier monument removed, too. It glorifies a cause that should not be celebrated by anyone.
We are Americans ALL–citizens of an eternal union of states conceived in freedom, justice, and liberty–eventually–for all of us, not just white people.
Rich Lussier
See how much better you are when you put your beliefs and agenda in the open?
I grew up on a farm, working shoulder to shoulder with black men, cutting timber just like my father and grandfather had. I have spent more time on the porch (theirs and mine) than most of the condescending white academics, urban and suburban.
Most of the “contradictory and controversial meanings of the Confederate flag” are due to lack of knowledge, and false notions from school, movies, television, oral myths, and outright hate propaganda, mostly coming from those who do not understand or like the South, the culture of Western Europeans who built this nation, and the federal system of very limited government which they designed.
These people are subversives, who seek to divide decent American by class and race. Many people are smart enough to figure out the propaganda war for their minds as some point, but many never hear any message but the lies and hate of Yankee socialism.
By the way, the states of New England didn’t think the Union was so eternal when they held Secession Conventions in the early 1800s over the matter of wanting state money to help Christian schools.
And the US went to war over a “tariff squabble” with England in 1812.
“I’ve got news for you. I not only want to see the flag down from the front of the state house; I’d like to see the soldier monument removed, too.”
At least you’re honest…more so than most of your associates.
All,
There are people on one side who want to tell the story that everything Confederate is bad. There are people on another side who want to tell the story that everything Confederate is good.
Let’s get to the reality of what SC should, could, and will do on the one issue that is before us — the proposal that our state legislature should fly the Confederate flag only on Confederate Memorial Day.
This reality is the common sense reality. The reality is the respectful bill H-3588 that honors the Confederate soldiers and ends the NAACP boycott and the NCAA ban.
We’ve already agreed on the right story: SC should honor the Confederate soldiers who served for her. They fought under a military chain of command that had civilian oversight. They did their duty. The reason that the civilian leadership decided on for calling the soldiers to serve is irrelevant. Everyone can appreciate the service and sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers.
In 2000, our state legislators took down the Confederate flags that were flying from the dome and the chambers. Why did they do this? Because they did not want to send the message that the state government owed present-day allegiance to the Confederacy. Good action, good message.
In 2000, our state legislators decided to honor the Confederate soldiers by protecting monuments, installing a flagpole near the Confederate Soldier Monument, and by making Confederate Memorial Day a regular state holiday. All these things are good — good actions, good messages.
In 2000, our state legislators raised up a Confederate flag on the flagpole that they built near the Confederate Soldier Monument. OK, this is bad. This sends confusing messages. Why is it there? Did the Confederate soldiers win the war? Does our state legislature want to return to 1860 policies? 1960 policies? What’s going on?
The solution is to pass H-3588. This bill clears up the confusion. When we pass H-3588, we can finally celebrate the achievement of the state legislators in 2000. We can all gather together, as we ought, to commemorate the service and the sacrifice of the Confederate soldiers on Confederate Memorial Day.
Thank you for supporting H-3588.
Regards,
Michael Rodgers
Columbia, SC
“This sends confusing messages.”
To whom?
H-m-m-m-m-m. Let me guess. Negroes?
Wow! That was a tuffie!
I am kind of curious though, just as to how you and your associates plan to go about convincing White South Carolina that it’s in our interest as such to willfully go about engaging in cultural self-genocide and the obliteration of our racial identity upon the altars of Political Correctness.
Walt,
You have got to be kidding? Cultural self-genocide? White people in this country are in no danger of that. You’ve got to remember that immigrants (both of the voluntary and in-voluntary variety) have had to adapt to the cultural mix they have found here over the last 350 years. They’ve learned English, found jobs, associated with and participated in the general American consumer culture, and, most importantly, they have bought into a constitutional arrangement built upon the rock of individualism, democratic government, and civil rights.
Go to the Tractor Pull in Saluda this weekend and see if the rural variety of white culture in S.C. is in any danger wilting due to a crisis of self-doubt!
Rich
P.S., I have been to the Tractor Pull a number of times. A great time was had by all.
“You’ve got to remember that immigrants (both of the voluntary and in-voluntary variety) have had to adapt to the cultural mix they have found here over the last 350 years.”
Yes, of course, if you are referring to assimilable White minorities, such as the Irish, Finnish, Baltic, Slavs, Hungarians, French Canadians, and Louisiana French.
Remember, unlike Negroes and Jews, all these ethnicities are composites of the overall White gene pool.
If you will take the time to look at the historical record, you will know that our (White) forebearers had absolutely no intention of making citizens and voters of their Negro slaves and most certainly had no intent that their descendants (contemporary Whites) should ever intermarry or intermix with them on any level. They realized
(subconsciously) that these were distinctly different races of humans who were (and are) totally unassimilable with White folk. As one of my associates eloquently put it:
——————————————–
Posted by Colonel Taylor on December 10, 2007 at 3:12 p.m.
I do not hate blacks at all, I just correctly understand that they are not human and treat them accordingly. They are nothing more than wild animals running around loose and one must act with extreme caution when around them. A hundred and fifty years or so ago, people in this country treated them and kept them contained and controlled. We made them useful by managing their numbers, containing them, and forcing them to work and be somewhat productive. But the natural empathy of the White man caused him to unleash a species of animal largely due to the fact they mimic humans in their behavior and dress. Now that the genie is out of the bottle, he can’t be put back in and we’re stuck with living around 30 million wild Negro savages.
Michael,
You have Brad Warthen, Richard Lussier, and a mob of NAACP members saying they want to take down all the monuments and street signs. Your promises are worthless.
Richard,
Have you designed a curriculum for black students, to help them understand and become more tolerant of white Southern culture and its sources in England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany and France?
Or is your agenda just to propagandize to white children, under the pressure of a grading system, to accept your views?
Lee,
I follow the SC Social Studies standards, which you can access on the State Dept. of Education website. The ten standards in US history do not in the least denigrate the role of any ethnic group in American history, nor have I ever done so.
As for taking down monuments and the flag, you should read the article in the High School Journal that I co-wrote with Dr. Schramm-Pate of USC. In class my goal is to give students information and then allow them to discuss and debate the issues for themselves. Good teaching isn’t about force-feeding students with controversial ideas; good teaching does involve, however, presenting students with often uncomfortable facts and then allowing them to draw their own conclusions. This does not mean that all opinions expressed are of equal value.
I look for the quality of students’ reasoning and their willingness to accept and employ the empirical norms of the academic discipline of the class in which they are enrolled.
For instance, the idea that some white supremacists still hold today that slavery was good is not up for debate in my class. Slavery was manifestly evil. Period.
It’s the same issue in science classes over evolution. The fact of evolution is not debatable, although the mechanism by which it occurred certainly is as new evidence comes in.
There’s no point in being in a class to learn how a discipline operates and how it generates facts, hypotheses, and theory if everyone’s opinion is equally worthy of respect. It is not. School is not an open forum as is the street (or this blog). I will not allow my students to say hateful things about anyone’s ethnicity or religious beliefs. I also don’t tell the kids how to vote.
In my school the teaching staff is genuinely motivated to reach all students with the knowledge and skills they need to function in society and to realize the promise of American democracy for themselves and ultimately for their children.
I will be having my students pay close attention to the election this year and will encourage them to debate the issues. As usual, we’ll be holding a mock election.
But I will not be wearing any campaign buttons during class. I want the kids to make up their own minds, but to do so within the context of the school’s expressed statement of respect for diversity and common commitment to citizenship based upon the ideas of our founding documents, not race or religion.
BTW, my background is French and I speak the language. I remember what it was like to be different in school, coming from a linguistic and religious minority. We looked white, but didn’t act it in the Anglo-Saxon sense. If white people can be made to feel different, not accepted, and alone within a white context on account of language and religion (I was Catholic), how much greater do Hispanics and African Americans feel in a world dominated by Anglo-Saxon whiteness?
My heart goes out to them and I believe that every ethnicity and religious minority needs to be invited to a respected place at our common cultural table.
Social studies education involves the imparting of these values of tolerance and respect, even if out in the street people are quite free to say some of the most hair-raising things. At least the schools can teach civility in the hopes that some of the lessons will hold.
Rich Lussier
I’ll admit that the rest of Anglo-Saxon and Nordic Europe does not consider France a part of it.
There is some tiny benefit to being exposed to diversity, but beyond that the only value is when the other culture offers something of value. American culture, as it was intended to be, is so far superior to that of today’s immigrants that they bring very little to us. They need to recognize that and thank God they are here, then get on with becoming Americans or go home.
A lot of Americans need to get with it, too.
Our public schools no longer produce citizens who know enough about how America is supposed to work to be any more than puppets and fodder for the oligarchy of subvsersion.
One example on topic is the Richland One textbook of my children, which omitted parts of the US Constitution, reworded others, simplified the War Between the States to one issue, slavery, and said “Sherman is alleged to have burned Columbia”. My children were appalled, but self-educated enough to be innoculated against such drivel.
Many children aren’t tuned in enough to avoid the war for their minds. They are the ones who vote for traitors like Clinton and Obama.
“Many children aren’t tuned in enough to avoid the war for their minds.”
Of course. That is EXACTLY what Mr. Lussier and his associates are all
about. You have to give him credit about being forthright in his desire to
obliterate every aspect of White Southern culture at “our common cultural
table” as he put it.
For instance, he writes, “I will not allow my students to say hateful things about anyone’s ethnicity…” What this means is…for example…if your child had the misfortune to be placed in his classroom and seated next to a little darkie and protested on the grounds that it was inappropriate for Whites to associate with Negroes and Mestizos, he would of course be hounded and humiliated as a “racist redneck” and belittled in every like fashion.
Do not delude yourself. These people are at war with us as surely as their
predecessors’ armies came South 140 years ago to wage war upon our land
and our people. After 12 years of “reconstruction” and Negro rule we tossed them out and retook our land, thanks to the heroic efforts of patriots such as General Wade Hampton and Senator Ben Tillman.
And now they are back again. Only this time, there will be no “Reconstruction II.” This time they mean for total extermination of our kind. Don’t kid yourself. We are at war, and its high time we Whites woke up and realize what is happening to us.
Mr. Lussier and Mr. Rodgers,
Meet Walt Hampton, the sort of extreme reaction you should expect to your extremist attacks on Southern culture.
Who’s attacking white Southern culture?? Not me. The cultural heritage of all Americans must be respected in the curriculum of the public schools.
Walt says that he would not be allowed to protest the placement of his daughter next to a black student in class. As a teacher I would certainly listen to him and then politely explain why students cannot legally be seated in a classroom according to race. If Walt chooses to send his kids to public schools, then he must accept integration.
This is not a bad thing. I have occasionally seen white children cringe when placed next to minority students. I had one vocal student in Saluda who bitterly protested having to sit behind a black female student in class. I made her do it anyway.
By the end of the semester, she and the black girl were doing one another’s hair and had become each other’s new BFF.
Clear proof that integration works!
So where is your acceptance of all cultures in your wish to tear down the flags, monuments and street signs honoring the defenders of states rights, Southern culture, and their homes and farms from invaders?
As long as only the good aspects of culture are transfered, it is good. When bad behavior becomes accepted and even glorifed, overall culture declines.
Current black culture is, for most blacks, a lack of culture. While liberals have encouraged them to walk away from Western civilization, from family life, from respect for elders, and not back to anything of value from their African heritage, but into a lifestyle of poverty, drug addiction and health problems brought on by irresponsible behaviors.
“Clear proof that integration works!”
Moving from the public school system to
the somewhat more restrictive environment
of the penal system, this same argument
could be used to justify the homosexual
relationships that convicts are well-
known to form in those unnatural settings.
What White parent would wish that upon their child?
WAKE UP, WHITE PEOPLE!
“So where is your acceptance of all cultures in
your wish to tear down the flags, monuments and
street signs honoring the defenders of states
rights, Southern culture, and their homes and farms
from invaders?”
Very good point, Mr. Muller. The silence
is deafening, isn’t it?
And yes, I see very little difference between the penal and
public school institutions..perhaps
in degree, but not in essentials.
After all, isn’t attendance at both compulsory?
Mr. Hampton, you are a true full-mooner!