Just got a tweet from Karen Floyd — remember Karen? she’s the state GOP chairwoman now — calling my attention to this item about Joe Wilson “thanking the Upstate’s ‘talk radio community’ that he said sparked a critical shift in his approach to fighting Democratic health care reform efforts and ultimately led to his now-celebrity status among some conservatives across the state.”
As I’ve said before, I wasn’t bothered nearly as much by Joe’s Tourette’s Moment during the president’s speech as by his subsequent behavior. We all lose control now and then. No, the thing that is really, profoundly offensive is the way Joe has embraced the extremists who embrace him, and decided to make the foolishness of a moment his new guide for political life.
OK, but even that is understandable to a certain degree. It merely illustrates a weakness common to politicians. It’s related to the “dance with the one that brung you” phenomenon. Since the talk-radio screamers are the only ones asking Joe to dance these days, he’s decided to go home with them. It happens, all across the political spectrum. If these are the only folks who will support him, he’ll support them back, under the logic of political survival.
But you’d think that a state party would want to maintain at least a certain neutral aloofness from this process. Not that I expect them to cast him into the darkness or anything; you’d just sort of think they’d stare into space and try to act like they didn’t notice the faux pas. Think about it: Karen is the chair of a party that contains both Joe Wilson and Bob Inglis, who voted for the resolution to express “disapproval” of Joe’s big moment. In fact, Joe was visiting Inglis’ part of the state to deliver this collective hug to talk radio.
Seems like the state chair would just want to stay out of that, and call as little attention to it as possible. I mean, as silly as the action of the S.C. Democrats often are, do you see Carol Fowler putting out a release to call attention to a Democrat who is making a career out of the most embarrassing moment of his life? Maybe she would. There’s no accounting for parties, and I gave up long ago trying to make sense of their doings.
But this sort of stood out, to me.
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Obama DID LIE.
On September 18, Barack Obama told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus that he supports medical coverage for illegal aliens… by making them all legal citizens.
“Even though I do not believe we can extend coverage to those who are here illegally, I also don’t simply believe we can simply ignore the fact that our immigration system is broken,” Mr. Obama said Wednesday evening in a speech to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute. “That’s why I strongly support making sure folks who are here legally have access to affordable, quality health insurance under this plan, just like everybody else.
Mr. Obama added, “If anything, this debate underscores the necessity of passing comprehensive immigration reform and resolving the issue of 12 million undocumented people living and working in this country once and for all.”
Anyone besides Lee like to weigh in?
Anyone? Anyone?
Bueller? Bueller?…
It’s not that Obama lied, he just didn’t tell, as Paul Harvey would say, “the rest of the story”.
Anyone who has been paying attention, without falling into the trap of distraction over Wilson’s remark, would have understood that any provision in a health care bill that would omit illegals would not stand and a backdoor strategy existed somewhere. Obama revealed his during the Sept. 18th speech. He told us how the problem would be solved.
Now, when he addresses reforming the immigration system, one of the proposals will be to grant citizenship to all illegals meeting some arbitrary criteria for length of residency, etc. It will stand a good chance chance of passing, thereby giving a very large voting block to Democrats.
Not sure where you guys get the “making them all legal citizens” out of “resolving the issue.”Our President has already shown a propensity for multilayered solutions that apparently exceed the comprehension of the right-wing pundits, if I am charitable, or are willfully distorted for nefarious political ends if I am not. I fully expect a well-thought out solution to be proposed by our President and reduced to meaningless absurdities by the fear-mongerers.
On what planet do you spend most of your time, indeed…..
Currently, our country does not require a national ID check for everything. And if a person needed emergency care, then a hospital should provide the care first and ask about citizenship status second, or never.
Thus, illegal immigrants get access to grocery stores, gas stations, and hospitals. Is Joe Wilson working to impose a national ID that will be required to be checked everywhere for everything? And is he working to require hospitals to ask about citizenship status first and provide care second, or never?
What is Rep. Joe Wilson talking about? The health care bill that will finally be passed into law will have some good restrictions based on citizenship status. What more does Rep. Joe Wilson want? And how does he intend to get it?
At the risk of my innate liberal credentials, even the most “socialist” of European countries require national identification for almost everything. Your papers, please.
I am a privacy advocate, yet I really would like a national ID, and, if we had national health care, a medical chip, so I wouldn’t have to remember and repeat my medical history again and again. As it stands now, I want to control my medical information as much as I can (ha!).
I guess I don’t have the same qualms as maybe others do, since I am admitted to three states bars, and passed character and fitness for a fourth. Talk about intrusive. I had to provide the exact street address for everywhere I resided for 6 weeks or more my whole life–even dorm rooms. The exact street address of employers…maybe not so bad if you are 25, but when you get older—took quite a while. Each state has different information they want, so you get to go on a scavenger hunt through your past. Thankfully, for South Carolina, there was the Internet and Google. Before then….
So I don’t have a problem with a national ID. I have a passport already anyway.
Why would a group of nuts care about distancing themselves from someone who acted like a nut?
I heard Karen Floyd speak when she was running for superintendent of education. I am no longer surprised at anything she says.
A lot of the usual personal insults of those who stand for American sovereignty but, as usual, no argument as to why we need all these hordes of immigrants, much less hordes of illegal immigrants.
Apparently, the Democrats don’t think they’ve yet created enough unemployment.
Lee, were you speaking on behalf of the native Americans for whom we are the immigrants?
My ancestors were colonists, just like the natives before them.
Did your ancestors sneak across the border, or come in legally?
Now, try again to stop repeating the silly comments you picked up from Chris Matthews and argue why America needs hordes of more poor illiterate people to add to our numbers of unemployed.
Lee, the natives were colonists?
For the past 65 years plus, I have spent my time on planet earth, rooted in the realities of life. Aware of politicians and their direct lies and lies of omission and convenience, leading the sheep to the shearing pens.
Obama is no different than any other politician. He is not a god, he is no more capable or thoughtful than Clinton, Bush, Carter, Reagan, Nixon, or any other president before him. He will take advantage of the bully pulpit and enact his agenda, just as other presidents have done and will do so in the future, political affiliation not withstanding.
And for what its worth, a small part of my ancestry is Cherokee Indian, of which I very proud. Remember one thing Randy, as the population of the earth grew and the human nature of exploring was followed, at one time or another, every country, culture, or civilization had their beginnings as immigrants from one land to another. Otherwise, we would all be living in a very crowded small valley in Africa.
Obama and the Democrat congress will do the same thing that was done in 1986 and 20 years from now, if the country recovers and prospers, it will once again be a political hot potato. So, don’t try to pretend this is not going to happen. History is a bitch and we keep repeating it, don’t we?
Bart, the terms used in Lee’s last post were natives and colonists not immigrants. Natives, by definition, are indigenous people and therefore cannot be colonists in their own land.
If you want to play the origination of man game then you don’t actually have Cherokee blood but only African blood – by your definition.
The immigrant issue as political hot potato is my point. Tancredo based his entire 08 primary campaign on spewing vitriol towards illegal immigrants. Lee took this a step further towards nationalist zealotry by addressing “hordes of immigrants” as in LEGAL immigrants.
Funny that you took issue with how I addressed immigrants but overlooked Lee’s fanatical prejudice against immigrants in general. Yes, “history is a bitch” especially when nationalism and vitriol towards other populations is involved.
Randy, I didn’t address Lee’s comments, I addressed yours. Don’t try your usual smoke and mirrors misdirection when responding.
“Lee, were you speaking on behalf of the native Americans for whom we are the immigrants?” Now, do you recall what YOU said?
Yes, I am part Cherokee which by definition is part of the DNA of humans which has been traced, according to researchers, back to a small valley in Africa. So, what is your point?
As for Lee’s “fanatical prejudice” against immigrants in general, that is his concern, not mine, but apparently, it bothers you greatly. Do you actually think you are going to change his mind? I have no problem with immigrants and if you had bothered to apply some of your intellect to actually understanding the point I was making, we are ALL descendents of immigrants, from the beginning until now.
My ancestry does contain Native American blood but it also has Spanish, English, Scotch-Irish, and German. Needless to say, four out of five had to come from somewhere other than pre-Columbus America.
But, then again, most don’t understand the history of our own country and the settlement theory of travelers crossing the land bridge from what is now Russia and moved across the continent, establishing cities or commerce centers with populations numbering into the tens of thousands. American Indians are only “native” to America because they were here before most of our ancestors were.
Randy and his ilk know that those of us who want real immigration reform have no “fanatical prejudice”. That is just one of their cheap rhetorical devices for deeming us unworthy of response, as if they had any response.
Most of us support a small level of immigration to keep our population at a reasonable level, because our birth rate among educated, productive American citizens would result a shrinkage of population.
What we advocate is moving away from the colonial mentality of bringing in hordes of cheap labor, towards selecting the best and brightest individuals from all over the world, so long as they understand and enthusiastically support the American ideals of limited government and individual liberty.
We oppose the cynical exploitation of illiterate, unskilled and mostly illegal immigrants by both political parties.
We oppose the letting those hordes of illiterate, unskilled, unhealthy, an uncivilized people who happen to be close enough to walk across the Mexican border, self-select themselves as illegal immigrants.
We oppose attracting and rewarding those undesirable illegal immigrants with free medical care, education, housing, mortgages, and employment.
… the thing that is really, profoundly offensive is the way Joe has embraced the extremists who embrace him, and decided to make the foolishness of a moment his new guide for political life.
-Brad
Here’s my DUH moment. Of course Joe Wilson is embracing extremists. He is one for crying out loud. He’s always been one. Why this continuous surprise over something that comes natural to ole Joe?
Frankly Brad you’re partly to blame for this fiaso. If you’d just stop with all this ridiculous advocacy of bipartisanship perhaps you could understand the truth. The GOP has become the party of extremists. They don’t want health care reform. They never even discussed it during the presidential campaign. They throw out a few lame reforms in an effort to hide their true agenda which is essentially to maintain the status quo.
Until the media can stop catering to the crazies in the GOP reform on health care or anything else becomes very difficult. Given that if SC were a country we would rank 87th in life expectancy why is this so hard to understand? Simply run away from what has failed and try something that works. But first let’s marginalize the crazies like Joe Wilson and stop pretending the best way forward involves bipartisanship.
Here’s an excerpt from an article about a true American hero, Congressman Alan Grayson from Florida:
ThinkProgress.org offers this account of Grayson’s dust-up with the Rethugs on healthcare reform:
Yesterday, Rep. Alan Grayson (D-FL) said the Republican health care plan is “don’t get sick,” and if you do get sick, “die quickly.” After offering those facetious and sadly accurate remarks, Grayson came under criticism from Rep. Tom Price (R-GA), who demanded that Grayson apologize on the House floor. Speaking to reporters this afternoon, Grayson said, “Yes, it was tongue-in-cheek. I’m surprised I have to explain that, but that’s the way it goes these days.” He added that he’s “not taking any of it back” and will “stand by what I said.” When asked if he would apologize, Grayson offered this response:
“I would like to apologize,” he said. “I would like to apologize to the dead.”
Citing a statistic that 44,789 Americans die each year because they don’t have health insurance, Grayson said, “That is more than ten times the number of Americans who died in the war in Iraq, it’s more than ten times the number of Americans who died on 9/11. …It happens every year.”
Grayson added in another apparent dig at the GOP, “We should care about people even after they are born.”
Grayson apologized one last time.
“I apologize to the dead and their families that we haven’t voted sooner,” he said.
That claim that “44,789 Americans die each year because they don’t have health insurance”, is as bogus as the “47 million uninsured”.
Is there a mechanism in the legislation to make sure all 44,789 are saved by socialized medicine? No.
Is there a sunset mechanism to automatically repeal this grotesque experiment in five years?
Oh, wait! It doesn’t even take effect until 2013. So much for the “healthcare crisis” and the “need to act swiftly”.
Bart, addressing my comments out of context is the problem. I was addressing Lee’s specific reference to IMMIGRANTS. His perspective of Americanism and immigrants is that we are the natives and these “hordes of immigrants” – LEGAL immigrants – is some sort of problem. Ironic given the Native American perspective, which I cited. (I could have included the vast number of American ancestors who were Irish, Italian, Polish, IMMIGRANTS.)
The term native is obviously relative given the history of man which means no one is a native of any country outside of Eastern Africa technically speaking. But the term native is used to refer to indigenous people. Those who crossed the Bering Land Bridge are considered the indigenous people for North America, not the colonists from West Europe. Again, that was my point.
As for your snarky “smoke and mirrors” critique of my posts, this certainly is a pot meets the kettle moment for you given that you ignored the context for my post.
What was your purpose for interjecting your context-free critique into the discussion between Lee and I anyway?
If you want to precise and accurate, the hordes of illegal invaders in this country are not immigrants, but trespassers.
If you don’t like the accurate term of “native” to describe a 9th generation American like myself, you probably will be offended by difference between “citizen” and “alien”, or “legal” and “illegal”.
The bottom line is that you explain why you want millions of illegal aliens to sneak into America and mooch services from our citizens, and why you and your ilk prefer the most ignorant and uncultured immigrants and invaders.
The bottom line is that you CANNOT explain why you want millions of illegal aliens to sneak into America and mooch services from our citizens, and why you and your ilk prefer the most ignorant and uncultured immigrants and invaders.
Hey, MY folks are part of the horde of illegal invaders! Back in the 1600s in New England.
Burl, your inability to carry on a adult conversation is probably why many of your readers don’t take you seriously.
Burl, they didn’t have a biogenetic national ID or a giant fence manned by Watchmen back then?
lol, biometric I mean
This is from an article printed in the San Francisco Examiner in June, 2007. It addresses another problem with the potential of having the same impact as the study referenced by Rep. Alan Grayson.
“…….the Pacific Research Institute, a San Francisco-headquartered think tank committed to seeking free-market solutions to major sociological issues, is pointing at an unrecognized villain in America’s health care mess. The PRI’s latest study, “U.S. Index of Health Ownership,” makes a case that “gross overregulation” inflates health costs to the tune of $169.1 billion per year — an average of $1,500 per family yearly.
Even more disturbing, the excessive health care regulations and mandates are accused of actually causing the deaths of some 22,000 Americans a year, 4,000 more than the 18,000 annual deaths attributed to lack of health insurance. These PRI figures are primarily collated from papers done by professors in major universities, including the School of Public Health at UC Berkeley…..”
The article goes on to present some examples of the problem with overregulation and stifling of competition in health care options, i.e., insurance options, etc.
“……PRI examples: A group of surgeons is ready to invest in a clinic where they will perform only operations they specialize in, but the local acute-care hospital invokes state regulations blocking the competition. A privately insured individual wants to buy a low-premium catastrophic coverage policy while also starting a tax-exempt health savings account, but this option is unavailable under state insurance rules.
Among the 50 states, California health choice is squarely in the middle of the pack. Utah, Nebraska and Delaware are ranked the top three overall. Their residents appear to enjoy relatively low premiums and fees, along with a smaller percentage of uninsured. The three bottom-ranked states are New York, Vermont and New Jersey, with costly, baroquely overregulated systems with almost completely uncompetitive prices.
Interest groups benefiting from governmental interference lobby hard for their preferred policies. The PRI report is realistic enough to recognize that its findings are counterintuitive to prevailing public thinking, and that government is unlikely to loosen its grasp on the half of health care spending it now directly disburses. The institute’s hope is that its report will help open the way for genuinely market-oriented reforms leading to better health care across America….”
Maybe it is time to back off the accusations and get down to some real solutions instead of politically convenient ones for either side. Enough is enough.
Randy, you seem to have no problem interjecting your comments into conversations between others so why the attitude of exclusivity?
Maybe, since you are one of the most prolific commentators on this site, it is only natural to feel as if you have the right to determine who responds to what.
“context-free critique”…good one Randy!! Another “pot and kettle” moment from you too!!!
Bart, I didn’t criticize you for interjecting but for interjecting criticism without taking into account the context; “Randy, I didn’t address Lee’s comments, I addressed yours.”
I went on to explain the context of the point I was making about immigrants. Given your last response, your focus seems more personally rather than topically motivated.
My suggestion is that you read the dialogue between Lee and I before continuing with this line of discourse. Or, you can continue to channel your energy on me personally.
The SF Examiner article speaks to regulation but not the problem of millions not being covered. Grayson’s point is the GOP is not making a serious effort to address reform.
The article also cites the status quo problem of choice being stifled. The public option creates more choice.
The point the experts are making in the article cited by Bart is that everyone would be covered by free clinics, if the government got out of the way.
The proposed federal takeover of medicine will kill business and make American exports more expensive.
The proposed 18% payroll taxes would require a corresponding reduction in other wages. How many families can stand a sudden 18% reduction of income?
My my, boys. No name-calling, please!
I figure I was born here. Where any of my forebears was born is irrelevant. I’m not entirely sure I understand why the fact that I was born here is relevant (well, I was actually technically born across the river in a hospital in Augusta, but my parents still live in the house I came home to in Aiken.
What ought to matter is that I volunteered to go out an work with some girls at DJJ yesterday. That you all bother to participate in civic discourse (if only barely civil sometimes)—in other words, we are responsible citizens of a democracy. If I were born somewhere else–in a another country–Mother Theresa was Italian, I think, yet she helped countless Indians—and came here legally and became an equally responsible citizen, would I be less worthy? Is my crazy mother-in-law more worthy because her ancestors came over on the next boat after the Mayflower, even though all she does is go to yard sales?
The illegal aliens were not born here, and have no right to be here.
Mother Teresa worked in India legally, on a visa.
And I once served on the board of the free clinic here in Columbia.
So all three of your analogies and insinuations fail miserably, Mrs. Fenner. You need to practice directly addressing the issues. Let me guess – you are not a trial lawyer.
Fail miserably at what? Which point of the many threads above do you assume I was addressing?
I was in fact directly addressing the annoying habit y’all have of telling everyone how long your ancestors have lived in South Carolina or the United States, as if that were at all relevant to anything.
I’ll take a good naturalized citizen over a slack Mayflower Society member any day and a diligent Yankee transplant over a couch potato whose family descends from the Charleston greats. That was my point.
I also complimented you all for participating, so I was “insinuating” nothing. I have done and continue to do a heck of a lot more than serve on one board once, though, since you feel the need to be derogatory.
I was not addressing the illegals issue, which I have addressed in the past: I do not condone breaking any law. If we do not like the laws, we should change them. I do believe that as a humane society, we should not deny critical care to any human being, regardless of ability to pay or immigration status.
And please call me Kathryn…
I have done trial work representing juveniles and family matters, but mostly I have represented the titans of industry, the Masters of the Universe who got us into the latest economic debacle– creative financing stuff and municipal and quasi-municipal finance including economic development documentation. Happy?
Kathryn, ALL RIGHT!!! Way to go!!!
I am very proud of you!!
Too bad I didn’t know about you when I had to go up against one of our local “Titans of Industry” several years ago.
If you don’t understand the relevancy of being born in America, versus wading across the Rio Grande illegally, this is not the place to remediate your understanding.
If you oppose illegal immigration, then I would hope you oppose providing tax-payer funded medical care, education, housing, and food, and would work to have them captured and deported.
Why would you want to represent the financial bunglers who created this financial mess? I can see some proper reasons. After all, I helped develop derivatives trading systems 20 years ago, but not to be misused like they were.
KB, your point about birthplace, ancestry and immigrantion mirrors my reply to Lee’s post about LEGAL immigrants.
The position that we should simply withhold health care from people, legal or illegal, is perverse and woefully shortsighted. Do we leave people to rot in the streets or to spread N1H1?
What do you mean “we” withold healthcare?
No one is stopping you from wasting your money treating criminals who sneaked into America.
I am not witholding something from them – they have no right to it. They didn’t earn the right to come here, and they have no more right to expect me to pay their bills than you have to expect someone in Switzerland to pay yours.
I am tired of these childish lies about thousands or millions of poor bums rotting in the streets. Show me some photos, names and locations.
H1N1 flu is a very good reason to have total control of our borders. So is tuberculosis and leprosy, which are also being spread by illegals from Mexico.