So we’ve heard Vincent Sheheen say there are only about 800 something state Department of Education employees, and Nikki comes back that no, there are eleven hundred and something (going by memory, since I can’t see my DVR from here).
And you think, “Whoa! Surely she wouldn’t give an actual NUMBER if it’s not true!” That is, you think that if you’re one of those simple folk who think numbers represent a special kind of truth.
And if you don’t know our Nikki, who is completely unbothered by actual facts.
Happily, self-styled “Crafty ol’ TV reporter” Jack Kuenzie bothered to check:
Debate issue: # of employees @ SC DOE? Dept. says 1,179 FTEs authorized, many slots vacant. Filled: 449 in bus shops, 434 administrative.
Those of you inclined to be overly kind will say, “Then they were both right!”
No.
The context in which this keeps coming up has to do with Nikki repeating the canard that our wicked, evil public education system never lays off “bureacrats,” but always lays off teachers first, because… well, just because it’s mean and evil.
Which, like most of what she says, is not true. The Department of Education — you know, the place where you find people actually enforce all those accountability rules and regulations that people who don’t trust public education have instituted over the years — actually employs far fewer than it’s authorized to employ.
And half of them (actually, more than half) keep the buses running. Just as Vincent keeps explaining.
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“The Department of Education — you know, the place where you find people actually enforce all those accountability rules and regulations that people who don’t trust public education have instituted over the years ”
Enforce? Really? Enforce? Can you give us some examples of what they have enforced?
They haven’t done anything except suck up dollars that could have gone to teachers.
And let’s not forget all the consultants that Jim Rex has hired (including I believe someone who ran his campaign). Are they included in the FTE’s or is that the way they get around it?
DOE enforces accountability like I enforce my wife’s credit cards. I watch what she does but don’t actually do anything about it.
Kind of reminds you of Sanford’s budget numbers, doesn’t it? Wonder if we’d need so many bus shop employees if we didn’t have the oldest bus fleet in the nation? Like, if we didn’t buy buses from other states that refuse to run them any more and consider them a vast improvement.
I have always found it galling when people vilify the Department of Education. Lord knows I hate a bureaucracy, but 90 percent of what the Department does in any economy is required by the federal government or the General Assembly. They don’t get a whole lot of time or resources to do anything else. When times get tough, they do all the same things (because the requirements don’t go away) with a whole lot fewer people.
It’s always handy to trash the Department, but it has very little to do with reality. Nikki Haley knows that, of course.
I’d be willing to abolish the Department of Education at the federal level and let the savings flow down from there.
When can we start?
You have to wonder if Nikki herself believes even half of the stuff that comes out her mouth.
I dunno– if we made all those kids walk/bike/skate to school, we could solve the obesity crisis and the lack of PE in one fell swoop. You guys are just not thinking outside the box like the estimable, creative Ms. Nikki!
Forget federal matching funds–let’s just put ’em to work picking the produce now picked by all them Mexicans. I mean, back in my day, kids didn’t have your iPhones, your iPads, your pocket calculators. We didn’t need no advanced mathematics. Ciphering was plenty!
@kathryn
Simple question: are the schools today preparing students for life better than they did twenty years ago?
They are spending more (a fact that cannot be denied) and achieving no significant improvement.
I don’t think anyone is really surprised that Senator Sheheen was pretty much on target with his numbers – and Rep Haley was spinning things to make her point sound better.
@ Doug – I think you should spend some productive time talking with someone at the Dept of education here in Columbia and share your views. Have you done that in a constructive manner or just complained about it?
I know someone there that is fairly high up that would most likely talk to you and be interested in what you have to say. I can ask him. I talked with him a few weeks ago for over an hour about some of duties. But be prepared. He has his facts as well but he’s a very fairminded person. Interested?
@ Doug
My son’s school does a great job. I visit his elementary school several times a month and volunteer and/or observe and always come away impressed – and it’s in a school where there are is a healthy percentage of children receiving reduced and free lunch.
and of course in actually volunteering and getting out in the world and into a real school (as opposed to whining about it on computers) I realize that schools are having to deal with more issues and problems today than they did 20-30 years ago.
BTW –
info I read today (which proves Ms. Haley was wrong again)
cut and paste here
Cutting the Department of Education’s budget would not eliminate the teacher layoffs or furloughs that have been enacted by local school districts.* The department’s Columbia-based administrative offices operate on a budget that’s less than 2% of total K-12 funding in South Carolina. Another 2% pays for statewide school bus operations and for textbooks. The general fund appropriation to operate the department has been cut more than 40% in the past two years
If the agency eliminated its entire professional staff, the amount of money saved would only fund about 10% of the teaching jobs lost.
(which again shows Ms. Haley was factually wrong in the debate last night)
There it is again — schools are spending much more money, but they aren’t doing anything better than they did decades ago. I hear that all the time, but I’ve never seen a single fact to back it up.
Back when I was in school, there was no vocational education to speak of. Kids that guidance counselors decided weren’t fit for college (the vast majority at my school, usually African American and poor kids but never those from white middle class families) took the general track, which didn’t prepare anyone for anything. There were no honors courses at my school, no AP courses, no gifted and talented programs, no arts education. I don’t know what the graduation rate was because the state didn’t calculate it, maybe because no one really cared until the “Nation at Risk” report woke us up. But it’s a pretty good bet that a whole lot fewer kids graduated in those days, and a whole, whole lot fewer went on to college or technical school.
I guess it depends on what you mean by “preparing students for life.” If it includes graduating from high school, having the chance to attend college, having access to vocational education, taking high level courses that help prepare you for college, and having access to programs that bring out your talents and expand your mind, I’d have to say we’re doing a lot more than we did.
FYI Jim Rex says on facebook:
Dear friends:
During last night’s Gubernatorial debate, Representative Nikki Haley referenced the number of employees at the State Department of Education, using incorrect data. Here are the facts.
(1) The Department of Education does not have 1,179 employees. As of September 1, 2010 the agency had 883 employees. Of that number, about half work in school bus maintenance shops located across thestate. The 1,179 figure is the number of FTEs approved for the agency, not the actual number of staff members.
(2) Cutting the Department of Education’s budget would not eliminate the teacher layoffs or furloughs that have been enacted by local school districts. The department’s Columbia-based administrative offices operate on a budget that’s less than 2% of total K-12 funding in South Carolina. Another 2% pays for statewide school bus operations and for textbooks. The general fund appropriation to operate the department has been cut more than 40% in the past two years.
(3) The Department of Education has already cut its operational costs by reducing our number of employees by 200 during the past two years. Additionally, our employees were furloughed for a week (5 days) last year and another 10 days this year.
(4) To my knowledge, I am the only state constitutional officer to voluntarily take furlough days (15 days of unpaid leave) in response to the state’s funding shortfalls.
Sincerely,
Jim Rex
@Right Independent Kay Packett (Robert Hearne)
You do realize that we have the highest dropout rate in the country?
And I attended a vocational high school in 1976-79 in Massachusetts. South Carolina isn’t even CLOSE to what is available in more advanced states.
@Barry
I’ve been in public schools plenty over the past twenty years. I ran for school board. I was a PTO President. I know very well what is going on in schools today. For kids not in AP or honors classes, the coursework is a joke.
@Right Independent Kay Packett (Robert Hearne)
And if you want facts, feel free to go to the DOE website. All the facts you want are there. They will show you that spending per pupil has increased while performance has remained stagnant for a decade.
@Barry
I’ll talk to anyone, anytime. Let me know when you want to arrange it. Warning: I will expect them to bring factual information to the meeting showing what specific things they have done to improve education in this state.
Doug, you ask…
“Simple question: are the schools today preparing students for life better than they did twenty years ago?
They are spending more (a fact that cannot be denied) and achieving no significant improvement.”
Standards have been raised and statistics on at risk groups are kept far better now…which doesn’t mean the statistics weren’t also sad or even sadder 20 years ago – we just don’t know to the same degree.
So it’s hard to say if schools are preparing kids better for life today than they did 20 years ago. For one thing, life is a lot different than it was 20 years ago.
But I believe they might be, at least in some circumstances.
Test scores do not necessarily reflect at all if a student is prepared for life, but still, you should consider the NAEP.
The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) is administered every 2 years to a representative sample from each state. It’s the only objective standardized test given across states. And it’s been given for over 20 years. Here are SC’s results since 1990 – Personally, I see some improvement over the past 20 years.
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/chartsview.aspx?jur=SC&sbj=MAT&gr=4&sample=R3&yr=2009&st=MN&acc=false
“I guess it depends on what you mean by “preparing students for life.” If it includes graduating from high school, having the chance to attend college, having access to vocational education, taking high level courses that help prepare you for college, and having access to programs that bring out your talents and expand your mind, I’d have to say we’re doing a lot more than we did.”
– Excellent point. I always laugh a little when I read comments that glorify the education of years gone by.
In 1960 – ( a different time no doubt) -only about 40% of adults evne had a high school diploma. The literacy rate today is higher than it was even then (when “all they taught was reading, writing, and arithmetic”)
My son is in 4th grade and his classmatates are almost as efficient on a computer as I am. His science fair projects in 4th grade are on a level mine were when I was in 7th-8th grade. He has been taught some basic words and phrases in Spanish – something I didn’t even hear about until I was in high school. He has a music class where all the students in his class learn to read some music-something I didn’t do until I joined the band in middle school. His classmates are way ahead of where I was at 30 years ago.
So pardon me if I don’t accept Doug’s anecdotes about the good ole days of education.
I LIVE on the SCDE website, Doug. Let’s settle on 1998 as a starting point, since that’s when the EAA (which you abhor) was passed:
SAT scores: up
ACT scores: up
PACT scores (math): way up
PACT scores (english): way up
NAEP scores: way up
School readiness scores: up
Where do you want me to look for a score that has declined since 1998?
Also, I have no idea what our dropout rate is compared to the nation, but you probably mean to refer to our graduation rate (not the percentage of kids who drop out in a single year, but the rate of students who enter the 9th grade and graduate four years later). It’s not great. It REALLY needs improvement. But it’s not the worst in the nation, and it IS better than it was 10 years ago, and it’s also the fastest improving in the nation.
http://ed.sc.gov/news/more.cfm?articleID=1240
I said stagnant KP.
Show me the “way up” numbers please.
Overall percentage of students who have achieved Proficient or better.
The only true test of public schools is graduation rate. They don’t give out Olympic medals for leading at the halfway point of the marathon.
@Doug: *sigh*. Why do I have to do all the work?
South Carolina has gained 31 points on the SAT while the nation has gained only 10.
We have improved .4 points on the ACT while the nation has gained 0 (every tenth of a point on the ACT is significant), EVEN THOUGH we have increased the number of test-takers by thousands of students every year while the nation has not.
PACT scores are up across the board (I couldn’t find a score that was down, or even stagnant), but here’s a sampling:
Grade 3 English: Up from 65% basic or above to 87%. Up from 42% proficient or advanced to 57%.
Grade 4 math: Up from 55% basic or above to 79%. Up from 26% proficient or advanced to 42%.
Grade 6 English: up from 68% basic or above to 75%. Up from 32% proficient or advanced to 36%.
Grade 6 math: up from 63% basic or above to 76%. Up from 25% proficient or advanced to 41%.
Here’s where we rank in improvement on NAEP over the past 10 years (NAEP only tests grades 4 and 8):
Grade 4 Math: No.1 in the nation
Grade 8 Math: No. 1 in the nation
Grade 4 Science: No 1 in the nation
Grade 8 Science: No. 3 in the nation
Then there’s this: how ridiculous is it to say that the only true test of public schools is graduation rate? There’s a private school in my county that probably graduates 100% of its students, but everyone knows their curriculum is easier than the public school curriculum, and there’s no guarantee that their graduates are ready for anything. Students who go there describe it as “a joke.” We could do that, too, if we thought it served a public good.
Look, I’m not saying our education system is perfect. I’m also not saying our progress hasn’t stalled in the last couple of years, while money’s been tight and while the Legislature has been talking about vouchers and just about nothing else. But I tire of people who insist that we’ve accomplished nothing when we have, in fact, made huge improvements. They don’t know what they’re talking about, and they don’t even care that they don’t.
Is that a civilized comment?
And for the record: “Basic” on PACT meant scoring on grade level. “Proficient” was the equivalent of a B.
Thanks, KP, that was really helpful.
@Doug
When in the last 20 years did you volunteer in an elementary school classroom? (I ask because your statements about schools almost never hold true based on my very current experiences in our local public elementary school).
Have you served as a mentor to a child in school recently? Many of them need mentors. Have you stepped up?
KP – When you’re at the bottom there’s only one direction you can go. Yes SC has gone up, but when public school students leave school unable to read or write at the 12th grade level and many having the intelligence of a box of rocks what do you expect?
I grew up in a state where graduation rates were in the 90%+ rates, where it was an embarrassment to you and your family if you quit school, and students ranked in the top 3 overall year after year. Imagine what it’s like to think this type of thing is normal and then come to SC and witness what is normal in this state. It’s like a witnessing a train wreck.
@KP
How about providing links to the data? What I see backs up my statements.
Let’s compare PACT scores from 2005 to the last year of PACT, 2008. We have to do that because they changed the test when the results no longer showed progress.
http://ed.sc.gov/topics/assessment/scores/pact/2005/statescoresgrade.cfm
http://ed.sc.gov/topics/assessment/scores/pact/2008/statescoresgrade.cfm
English – two grades (3,8) had more Below Basic students including 29% of 8th graders (the critical transition year to H.S. when the dropouts occur). That was up from 25% in 2005.
And the numbers for black students are far worse.
8th grade Math African American students in 2005: 38% Below Basic. in 2008: 43% Below Basic.
8th grade English African American students in 2005: 50% Below Basic in 2008: 45% Below Basic
So whatever gains were made in Math were at the expense of English scores.
There isn’t any way to describe this as less than “perfect”. The results are horrendous. One third of the kids coming out of 8th grade (and half of the black kids) are unprepared for high school. More money won’t solve this problem. It’s been tried again and again in places like Allendale.
Money hasn’t been “tight”. Per pupil spending is higher. The “voucher” red herring is just that – an excuse. Not one single dime has been spent on vouchers. That’s because the greatest fear of the education community is that someone will allow vouchers to be tried (even in the worst districts) and it might work.
@ Fred–
“many having the intelligence of a box of rocks what do you expect? ”
Well, even if that’s true, what do you expect the schools to do about a failure of intelligence.
I don’t know what state you come from, but I bet it does not have the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow and aristocratic pretensions SC does.
Today’s news:
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13403189
“COLUMBIA, SC (AP) – Slightly more students passed South Carolina’s high school exit exam on their first try this year.
Results released Thursday by the state Education Department show nearly four out of five high school students passed both the English and math sections. The 79 percent passing rate marks an increase of more than 2 percentage points over 2009.
But it’s still less than state’s highest showing in 2008 at 81 percent. Results dipped last year after three years of improvement.”
Stagnant.
For heaven’s sake, Doug, PACT wasn’t changed because we stopped making progress (although, as I said, progress had definitely stalled in the last year or so). It was changed because people like you constantly complained about it, as you know very well.
PACT was given in 6 grades in 4 subjects over eight years. That’s 192 individual scores to pick from. Of course you can find some subjects in some grades in some years where there was a decline, as you have done.
I thought the question was whether we had shown improvement over the past decade. So here are the complete results for every grade from 2002 (the earliest year I could find complete data on the web) and 2008, the last year PACT was given.
Math (Basic or Above)
Grade 3: 72% in 2002; 77% in 2008
Grade 4: 67% in 2002; 79% in 2008
Grade 5: 63% in 2002; 78% in 2008
Grade 6: 64% in 2002; 76% in 2008
Grade 7: 57% in 2002; 78% in 2008
Grade 8: 63% in 2002; 70% in 2008
Math (Proficient or Advanced)
Grade 3: 33% in 2002; 33% in 2008
Grade 4: 28% in 2002; 42% in 2008
Grade 5: 26% in 2002; 38% in 2008
Grade 6: 27% in 2002; 41% in 2008
Grade 7: 25% in 2002; 33% in 2008
Grade 8: 18% in 2002; 21% in 2008
English (Basic or Above)
Grade 3: 76% in 2002; 87% in 2008
Grade 4: 81% in 2002; 81% in 2008
Grade 5: 74% in 2002; 78% in 2008
Grade 6: 68% in 2002; 75% in 2008
Grade 7: 69% in 2002; 71% in 2008
English (Proficient or Advanced)
Grade 3: 41% in 2002; 57% in 2008
Grade 4: 28% in 2002; 46% in 2008
Grade 5: 38% in 2002; 32% in 2008
Grade 6: 32% in 2002; 36% in 2008
Grade 7: 28% in 2002; 29% in 2008
Grade 8: 23% in 2002; 28% in 2008
Here are the links to that data:
http://www.ed.sc.gov/topics/assessment/scores/pact/2001/default.cfm
http://ed.sc.gov/topics/assessment/scores/pact/2008/default.cfm
As to the achievement gap. According to the Education Oversight Committee, here are actual PACT scores for African American students comparing 2002 with 2007 (the report doesn’t break it down by grade, but grade-level data are available on the SCDE website):
Math (Basic or Above): 52% in 2002; 62% in 2007
Math (Proficient or Advanced): 13% in 2002; 16% in 2007.
English (Basic or Above): 61% in 2002; 64% in 2007
English (Proficient or Advanced): 15% in 2002; 20% in 2007.
And here’s the link:
http://eoc.sc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/005CF7BA-A43F-421B-AB04-72B8B8B6E4A3/16999/draftApr92008achievementgap.pdf
@ Doug
“I’d be willing to abolish the Department of Education at the federal level and let the savings flow down from there.”
Would you also do away with special education, which is federal? I am really not sure what the fate of disabled children in South Carolina would be without the federal law (IDEA).
If I’m, like, a student, and I hear all this crap, y’know, in the media about how much my schools and teachers, like, suck, why should I, like, pay any attention to my teachers, because, y’know, they suck?
Been there, done that. “Bad” education is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and the kids are paying attention to the doomsayers.
@Nick
Yeah, it’s talking about schools that is the problem. If we’d all just get on the DOE bandwagon and never admit schools have problems, we’d see 100% literacy.