photo by Adam Glanzman, Flickr
Wait a minute… I see he said this yesterday, which means, I suppose, we might hear something else today. But in the meantime, here’s what he said yesterday:
UPDATE: And now we’ve come full circle in all the “penalty” vs “tax” talk. Mitt Romney has spoken and clearly affirmed that the Affordable Care Act’s individual mandate is a tax, directly contradicting his senior adviser, Eric Fehrnstrom, who had said earlier this week that it was a penalty. Romney tried to explain the contradiction by noting in an interview with CBS News that it was all about the Supreme Court’s majority opinion. “While I agreed with the dissent, that’s taken over by the fact that the majority of the court said it’s a tax, and therefore it is a tax. They have spoken. There’s no way around that,” Romney said.
When Romney was asked whether the fact that he was unequivocally calling the mandate a tax meant he had changed positions on the issue, the Republican focused on President Obama, saying he “has broken the pledge he made” because “it’s now clear that his mandate, as described by the Supreme Court, is a tax.”
Obama’s campaign, however, quickly seized the opportunity to say that Romney “contradicted his own campaign, and himself,” reports the Washington Post…
You ever see such a case of somebody trying to have it every which way?
Roughly, here’s the timeline:
- Romney pushes through health care reform as governor, and it includes a mandate that everyone have insurance. He goes around bragging about it for years, as well he might…
- But then, President Obama pays him the complement of pushing health care reform that does the very same thing, and suddenly Mitt’s not so proud of what he’d done, because he wants the votes of people who spit on the ground every time Obama’s name gets mentioned. If Obama did it, the thinking goes, it’s evil. So Romney quits bragging.
- Then, the court says it’s not a mandate; it’s a tax. And the GOP seizes on that, because if there’s anything nearly as evil as Barack Obama in their book, it’s a tax.
- But then Romney’s aide says the court’s wrong, because Romney, having created just such a mandate, ought to know a mandate when he sees one. Which stands to reason.
- But then Romney adopts a position of Hey, what do I know? It may look like a mandate to me and this other fella, but the court says it’s a tax, so it’s a tax. And taxes are bad, harrumph, harrumph.
At this point, is there anyone left in the country, of any philosophical bent, who’s enthusiastic about voting for Mitt Romney in the fall? Oh, some are eager to vote against Obama; that hasn’t changed. But are they pumped about voting for Romney? I doubt it…
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Was it ever in dispute that a State had the legal authority pass a healthcare overhaul?
Isn’t Romney already on record saying that the Masscare was a flop and was too expensive?
If the SCOTUS says it’s a tax, it’s a tax. There’s not a higher authority to appeal to.
Throwing this out there for arguement’s sake: How is the Obama health care tax/penalty any different than China’s one child policy?
Brad, as damning as all those bullet points are the one that really gets me is when Romney tries to say his MA plan was a good one for MA but that it would be an absolute disaster if adopted nationwide. Seriously? It’s a state’s rights issue according to this narrative. I don’t think folks are buying this BS but I guess he has to say something.
I tried to understand exactly what “carried interest” is and how it is taxed. Frankly, it is unintelligable. All income should be treated the same way and we just get rid of all these loopholes. I would treat capital gains, interest, dividends, inheritance, fees and wages all the same way. No exceptions. I’ve come around to the view that the tax system should exist to raise revenue and not influence behavior. To the extent that the economy needs a stimulus then lower rates. But let’s not have deductions for anything.
If I was Romney I’d just keep my fingers crossed and hope for a really bad jobs report tomorrow and shut up about everything else. His ONLY hope is bad economic news.
Both Romney and Obama (as well all US citizens) must now defer to our Supreme Court’s determination, There can no longer be debate, for Obama’s PPACA to be constitutional, the penalty IS a tax.
As to taxes in general, while I am certainly no Democrat/Republican, I am of the intransigent opinion that all government entitlements should be taxed at graduated rates applicable to the unearned income it is like (e.g. ordinary dividend income).
Dems and Repubs would both have a very hard time arguing with such a rationalization of today’s unfair tax code.
Before Bud gets started, my proposal should ameliorate legal abuses like Cadillac-driving welfare moms (actually the one ID’d by the AP last year may have been a grandmother) and receiving $115,000 per year from our taxes.
$115k? Aw, come on! That’s more money than Nikki made for hardly working at Lexington Medical Center…
@ bud – how about a 90% tax on the earnings of current & former politicians and their spouses? That’s something I could support.
@ Juan – Ordinary dividends are taxed at ordinary income rates. Qualified dividends are taxed at a maximum 15% rate, plus the new Medicare surtax of 3.8%, where applicable. Your mileage may vary.
@ Brad – my tax proposal would curtail abuses of power like Nikki’s non-job jobs and her husband’s BS job with the guard.
Here’s a quote from the ultra-conservative Oathkeepers: “Defense contractors like General Atomics and Northrop Grumman will be more than willing to ignore the Fourth Amendment in order to have 18,000 police departments across the United States as customers for these expensive spy machines. If we do not stop this NOW, we will have thousands of spies in the sky monitoring our every move.”
So why would liberal bud be quoting an ultra-conservative fringe group? Shocking as it may be they are right on this issue. I first saw this story on Fox News yesterday and the panel of mostly conservatives agreed that this practice is wrong. And the ultra-liberal Buzzflash also agrees that this practice is wrong. Here we have common ground. In keeping with Brads endless bipartisanship exhortations I’ll step up to the plate and support the efforts to end domestic drone flights. Sometimes you have to work with the most unsavory of groups to get things done. This is one of those times.
Isn’t Romney already on record saying that the Masscare was a flop and was too expensive?
-Silence
Romney is probably on record saying just about everything on all sides of every issue so what’s your point?
I’d put the anti-Obama vote in the same category as the anti-Haley votes for Sheheen. He didn’t run FOR something, he ran AGAINST what Haley stood for.
Like your views on endorsements, you only have two choices so you are sometimes forced to pick the least worst. In this case, I think there is a very strong Republican base out there who despise what Obama has done over the past four years and is ready to go to the polls to express that feeling. Obama on the other hand got a lot of anti-George Bush votes based on a lot of rhetoric (“I will not vote for sa healthcare bill that doesn’t include single payer; etc.) that has proven to be just plain old campaign lies.
Fired up Republicans + Disenchanted Hope and Changers + A Shaky Economy = Romney has a decent chance of winning
@ bud – so when Romney changes his mind, it’s a flip-flop, but when Obama changes his mind, he’s “evolving”. 😉
News from the future:
In the highly controversial case of Smith vs. Dept. of Defense, Chief Justice Roberts, writing for the Court, held that Mr. Smith doesn’t HAVE to quarter troops in his house, but the government can tax you him if he decides not to.
Either way.
Fired up Republicans + Disenchanted Hope and Changers + A Shaky Economy = Romney has a decent chance of winning
-Doug
Intrade has his chances about 40%; Nate Silver is a little more bearish on Romney at about 32%. I think Nate has it about right but perhaps even he is a bit high. I’d give Romney’s chances about 25% tops. Yes the economy is weak but I don’t find the other reasons Doug cites as particularly credible. I just don’t see this fire on the GOP side given their excruciatingly unlikeable candidate.
Perhaps a bit of disenchantment over Obama but as people have gotten to know Obama they’ve come to like him and more importantly he’s coming across as a winner. He’s gotten Bin-Laden, reformed immigration policy and gotten his way on healthcare. What disenchantment there is is because of the shaky economy. (In statistics we call that autocorrelation). Hence if you solve the shaky economy you also solve the disenchantment.
So while it may not be over yet Romney’s vile personality is making the president’s job easier. Barring a couple of really bad jobs reports (granted, that’s a distinct possibility) this election is pretty much over.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/Dredd308/peggy.jpg
Bud: “Romney’s vile personality”? Say what?
Only thing I can think of that even fits halfway into that category is that story about what supposedly happened in prep school. And that hardly constitutes a pattern…
“Ordinary dividends are taxed at ordinary income rates. Qualified dividends are taxed at a maximum 15% rate, plus the new Medicare surtax” – silence
And Obama and the Dems want to raise taxes on dividends because they are “unearned”, while Republicans can’t see it.
All I am saying is make all “unearned income” subject to the same graduated ordinary rates.
No American family should get $115k of unearned income from the U.S. unless its taxed like every other American’s! Get it?
Let’s see we have the dog on top of the car (disgusting); then there’s this whole cluelessness about his own wealth (car elevators, $10k debate bet); income tax intransigence; insulting comment about the cake that was “bought @ 7-11” (actually a cake carefully prepared at a local bakery); and of course the prep school incident (and who knows how many others we don’t know about). Seriously the guy is a walking disaster area of bad personality.
@bud – If you ever meet Obama, ask him how dog “tastes”.
Do you even know what a car elevator is? It’s a $3000 (for a good one) lift like you see at service stations. I know a couple of car collectors who have them (yes, more than one).
Too bad none of the Democrats have $10,000 to bet… that’s sarcasm if you didn’t get it.
I wonder if Romney ever admitted to using cocaine and marijuana? What did Romney’s wife do her thesis on? We all know what Michelle did hers on.
Bud,
Look, people become accustomed to their life circumstances and develop lifestyles to reflect their economic norm and position.
In this century, we have had both Roosevelts, a Kennedy and two Bushes who all could be considered not only wealthy, but “obscenely” rich. That’s life. Notice that they fall all over the political spectrum. None was every mistaken as a populist – though Kennedy came closest. You decide how genuine that display really was.
We shouldn’t expect Romney to ever be able to empathize with “the people” as Bill Clinton could. But we would be incredibly short-sighted to hold that against him. I’m sure you don’t hold Obama’s demeanor against him.
And that right there is about the most supportive of Mitt Romney that I think I’ll ever be able to muster. Attacking freeloaders of all stripes is very different than attacking people for their wealth, income, education or occupation – rich or poor.
@Mark – Exactly, while I will admit that I make a very comfortable living I have a friend who makes more in a month than what I make in a year. I’ve seen her buy things for $10k on a whim and not even bat an eye. Do I envy her? Nope because she came from a family that was lucky to have running water and electricity when she was growing up. We’ll never convince bud that she deserves what she worked for, because all he’ll see is that she’s “rich” and that’s she needs to be taxed at an obscene rate because nobody deserves to make that kind of money.
No takers on the “How is the Obamacare tax/penalty different than China’s one child penalty?” – maybe there’s no takers b/c they aren’t substantially different?
@ Juan – there’s a tax break on qualified dividends b/c there’s risk involved, and it encourages people to invest for the long term. The long term capital gains tax is low for the same reason, but capital gains aren’t indexed for inflation, and should be if we are going to tax them at the full rate.
For example: In 1965 a new Ford Mustang retailed for about $2500. That same car now retails for 30-40k. Inflation eats up your buying power of any money saved or invested.
I wonder if Ann Romney ever had a 300k job that was SO important that the hospital didn’t refill the highly paid position after she left.
Oh wait, that was Michelle Obama’s bullsh** job. Sounds like her and Governor Haley have something in common…
Silence, when you asked earlier, “How is the Obamacare tax/penalty different than China’s one child penalty?,” I was going to answer with something like, “How is a honeydew melon different from an African swallow?”
The things are so qualitatively different in their very nature that it’s hard to know where to start in explaining the difference.
Since you seem to think they share some qualities in common, perhaps you should lay them out, to give us a place to start…
@Silence – You think Obama is going to limit his voter base to one child? Not that it’s a bad idea considering what we see every single day in the headlines.
@Brad, Sure – Each one is a government mandate, ostensibly to promote the national well being. The Chinese govt believed that they had too many people, and ours believed that we had too many people who lacked health coverage.
In each one, you must do what the government says, or pay a financial penalty (or tax, according to SCOTUS), but in this case we’ll stick with penalty.
In each case, you have the option of performing an action you might rather not, and thus avoid paying the tax. And in each case, there is an enforcement mechanism to ensure compliance.
Each one is a coercive behavior on the part of an authoritarian central government that knows few if any limitations on its power. If the government can madate you to buy something – for the good of the country, and for your own good – how is that really vastly different from China’s one child policy?
I think the fines are even similar amounts.
Let’s start with that.
The Roosevelts and Kennedy, while very wealthy, all supported policies that addressed issues concerning the poor and downtrodden. Plus JFK for his part did serve in a dangerous war. Romney? He did missionary work in the extremely harsh conditions of France.
Every time Mitt Romney opens his mouth he finds a way to insult someone who actually works for a living. His upbringing did absoltutely nothing to give him a sense of belonging with his fellow Americans. He’s a living, breathing charicature of the pampered, elitist rich boy snob who can’t even tolerate someones hair style. And what’s with the ‘secret’ asset holdings in places like Ireland and the Cayman Islands? If he cared about his country he’d move that money to the US where it could be used as capital to help his fellow contrymen. Worse still he can’t even treat his own dog with a modicum of desency. And this is the guy who may one day lead this country? Scary isn’t it.
Yet with all that if Mitt Romney would actually endorse a single policy or program or tax initiative that would actually help those in the 99% then he would at least earn my respect. But no. It’s full speed ahead with the tax breaks for millionares and more deprivation and stagnation for the rest of us.
there’s a tax break on qualified dividends b/c there’s risk involved, and it encourages people to invest for the long term.
-Silence
Rather than challenge the assertion that there really is all this “risk” and it’s actually something we should encourage in the tax code lets’s look at this a different way. (As an aside carried interest clearly involves extremely little risk) A high tax on qualified dividends could indeed hurt the economy. But that’s true of ANY tax. What’s more it is probably less detrimental than high taxes on wages. I say tax all income the same and let the chips fall where they may.
Steven,
No, Romney has a real car elevator. Given the site conditions and the zoning laws in San Francisco, he needs it. And it’s still a so what expense. Of course his Dodge Ram will never been seen in that driveway.
@ bud – When I go to work every day, I can be relatively certain that at the end of the day, I will have more money than I started the day with. I get a paycheck every two weeks, and it comes pretty much 100% of the time, as long as I clock hours and work. Effectively, it is risk free.
As I type this, the S&P 500 is down about 1%. This means that I have less money than I had at 9:29 this AM before the market opened. Hence, it is risky, there is no inherent guarantee of either a return on principal or a return OF principal.
We should be encouraging everyone to invest in their own future.
Silence, when you asked earlier, “How is the Obamacare tax/penalty different than China’s one child penalty?,” I was going to answer with something like, “How is a honeydew melon different from an African swallow?”
-Brad
How about a honeydew melon and Mars. Or an African swallow and the Andromeda Galaxy. Seriously Silence you’ve outdone yourself with this ridiculous analogy.
“Plus JFK for his part did serve in a dangerous war. Romney? He did missionary work in the extremely harsh conditions of France. ”
When did JFK join the presidential race? What did Obama do?
“He’s a living, breathing charicature of the pampered, elitist rich boy snob who can’t even tolerate someones hair style.”
You know, Brad’s hairstyle really ticks me off sometimes.
“If he cared about his country he’d move that money to the US where it could be used as capital to help his fellow contrymen. ”
So according to bud, you’re a traitor if you own property outside of the US. What about the Chinese who are buying up land in the US? Should they be chastised by a “Bud Wong from Shanghai” for not investing in property in mainland China?
“And this is the guy who may one day lead this country? Scary isn’t it.”
There are plenty of people already scared by the guy in charge now.
Mark – Is this election going to come down to a car elevator in Romney’s garage?
@ Brad and bud – the appropriate question would be “How is a raven like a writing desk?” but in fact, these two mandates are more alike than they are different. I am waiting to be convinced otherwise, I will certainly listen to your arguements.
@ Mark Stewart – I wish I had a car elevator, or enough cars to warrant needing one!
Interesting… Romney spends his own money to put in a elevator in his garage. Obama spends taxpayer money to install a basketball court in the Whitehouse. Which decision makes bud upset???
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/04/barack-obama-al.html
Actually, I think doing missionary work in France is pretty much worthy of combat pay. Pretty hostile territory in which to be evangelizing…
We should be encouraging everyone to invest in their own future.
-Silence
Talk about socialism. This is nothing but a transfer payment from poor people with no chance of buying an S & P 500 stock to subsidize wealthier folks who can easily afford to take “risk” in the stock market. Heck if I were to have a different tax rate on anything it would be stock dividends. That’s basically a tax on folks who can afford and who benefit the most from the federal government. But I’ll settle for taxing everything the same.
“This is nothing but a transfer payment from poor people with no chance of buying an S & P 500 stock”
Well not with that attitude.
“Plus JFK for his part did serve in a dangerous war.” – bud, the name Inga Arvad comes to mind. She was a Nazi spy, and JFK’s girlfriend in the early 1940’s. She was also the reason he was sent out to sea, put in command of PT-109. PT-109, of course is the boat JFK managed to wreck, by getting run over by a boat capable of 1/2 as much speed.
As my father reminded me about his own combat experiences, a lot of medals for heroism are awarded because someone took action when things got bollixed up. As long as we’re slinging insults, how about Poppy Bush’s dad helping to finance German rearmament? Not to mention that Poppy survived the downing of his own plane while his two crewmen didn’t. War is like that.
“Not to mention that Poppy survived the downing of his own plane while his two crewmen didn’t. ”
Damn you Steve Gordy, now bud has yet another reason to go off on a Bush tangent.