FYI, I’m posting this as of 7 p.m., even though the stupid timer thing on the blog will probably say it’s three hours earlier.
I am neither as humble as Sunny (so I won’t hold back) nor as "confident" as Laurin (so I won’t do percentages), but here’s what I think is probably happening in the primaries today.
I’m doing this to underline, for those who still don’t understand after I’ve explained it a gazillion times, that endorsements are about who ought to win, not who will win. I’m never very optimistic about primaries, parties being what they are. Our candidates in general elections fare much better.
Here goes, stream of consciousness:
- Governor — Sanford wins easily (OK, one percentage — 70 percent). Moore either wins outright or Willis squeaks into a runoff.
- Superintendent of Education — Karen Floyd gets the most votes, but Staton makes it into a runoff.
- Treasurer — Ravenel gets the most votes, but Ryberg gets into a runoff.
- Lieutenant governor — Bauer gets more votes, but Campbell’s in a runoff.
- Agriculture commission — Arrogant as I am, I have no idea.
- Secretary of State — Hammond wins.
- 2nd Congressional District — White wins.
Beyond that, no predictions. Of course, I’m praying (unless it’s blasphemous to ask the Lord to get involved directly in politics) that Bob Staton, Bill Cotty and Ken Clark win. And I’m hoping that Joe Neal, Joe McEachern and Anton Gunn win. Those are all hard to read, but I feel pretty good about Cotty. If he loses to that crowd that’s trying to take over, South Carolina is in a lot of trouble.
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What’s the threshhold for Sanford’s percent to be considered a problem?
Campbell’s winning (please no run off).
Staton-Floyd run-off. Who would that favor? I think she pulls in more conservative votes and I believe they’d be more likely to vote in a run-off.
Brad,
How can you explain Sanford endorsing Ryberg and he gets clobbered and he endorses Floyd and she wins in a landslide?
As a public school teacher, I am very disappointed in the otcome of this race. People like Karen Floyd, Mark Sanford and their neocon suppporters are very scary for those of us in the education arena. We just elected someone to be State Superintendent of Education that has spent more than a year bashing the very system she will probably end up leading. Go figure. I wonder who the 50,000 or so teachers voted for? Thanks.
Kelly
The Floyd thing is worrisome, but the Thug Squad didn’t do so well in the other races they targeted, losing 5 of the 8 outright. Spires and Clark are headed for a runoff. The only incumbent they ousted was Becky Martin in Anderson.
So, yeah, there’s still some good news in this election – very few GOP legislators are going to be cowed into supporting PPIC based on this.
People like Karen Floyd and Mark Sanford should be scary to business-as-usual types and I’m glad to see them winning. We are well past time that the status quo should be challenged. The public education system especially is well past the point of repair. For decades it’s been a major disservice to the young people of this state and it’s high time we give parents a choice of where they want to send their kids to school.
School choice shouldn’t be a problem at all for schools and teachers who do what they are supposed to do. I highly doubt that parents would yank their kids out of satisfactory schools on a wholesale basis, simply because it’s quite a hassle to have to drive your kids to a private school or more distant public school. The substandard schools on the other hand should be scared to death – maybe that will finally get them to do their jobs. By golly, nothing else has worked so far.
What in the world is so wrong with competition in education? Why are “educators” so deathly afraid of having to prove themselves in a competitive market just like everyone else? This is the ultimate in accountability. If schools and teachers don’t perform, school choice would finally give even poorer parents a way to find schools and teachers who will do their jobs. About time!!
“it’s high time we give parents a choice of where they want to send their kids to school.”
Lex, parents have a choice now – just don’t ask me to pay for their kid’s private school education, which is what Sanford and Floyd want.
Yep, right now parents have the same type of “choice” they would have if everyone were required to buy a Chevy whether they want one or not. Sure you could give people a “choice” to buy a Ford, Toyota, Honda or whatever – as long as they paid for the Chevy along with the car that they really want.
That’s not choice but that’s exactly where we are now in education up to grade 12 (BTW, do you also have a problem with your taxes going to pay for tuition or grants at private colleges?). Yeah, I can send my kids to private school but in addition to paying for that private school I still have to pay taxes to pay for public schools as well. Some “choice” that is!!
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not against public education. I’m all for the public funding of education but why should the actual education be provided by a government bureaucracy as well? Can you tell me just one area where the government provides a better or cheaper service than private industry would? Parents, not the education bureaucracy, should decide where that funding goes. If they are not happy with their local school why shouldn’t they be able to choose another school, whether public or private? Why should our kids be imprisoned in a failing system, one that has been at or near the bottom of the 50 states for decades?
It’s clear to any thinking person that the current system isn’t working. It’s high time we tried something else. Above all, don’t ask me to continue pouring my money down the government-operated education rathole.
There is nothing in the law that requires parents to send their children to public schools, it just says you have to attend until you reach the age of 17. We already have school choice and competition. If you are not satisfied with the job your local schools are doing home school your child, send them to private school, move. American Education is the backbone of our nation, it is national security. We don’t need Mark Sanford, Karen Floyd, etc. leading something they are so much opposed to. Mrs. Floyd is so proud of her public education and the education her son’s are receiving, yet all she wants to do is tear down and be negative. It is the State Dept. of Education after all, not the State Dept. of let’s give money to the wealthy in the form of a tuition credit.
Let’s vote Tommy Moore Govenor and put an end to outsiders trying to tell us how to educate our kids.
Above all, don’t ask me to continue pouring my money down the government-operated education rathole.
Fine. Don’t ask me to pour MY money into your wallet so you can send your kids to private school.
I don’t object to paying taxes for public education, but I DO object to the state taking my money and handing it over to people who in many instances make far more money than I do in what is nothing more than a massive entitlement program.
“Can you tell me just one area where the government provides a better or cheaper service than private industry would?”
Yep. The Army.
“Parents, not the education bureaucracy, should decide where that funding goes.”
Parents do – through their elected officials, just like with every other governement service.
“If they are not happy with their local school why shouldn’t they be able to choose another school, whether public or private?”
See above. They can choose whatever they want, as long as they pony up for it.
“It is the State Dept. of Education after all, not the State Dept. of let’s give money to the wealthy in the form of a tuition credit.”
Hint: the wealthy don’t need tax credits or vouchers – they already have enough money for that. It’s the poorer parents who are currently imprisoned in a system that is failing their kids on a monumental scale. The less wealthy are the ones who would benefit most from real choice.
It’s absolutely beyond me how anyone can actually defend the absolutely atrocious performance of our public schools. If this is the “backbone of our nation, it is national security” then we are in dire trouble indeed! Our enemies couldn’t do much worse to us than this.
KC,
in case yoyu missed it, the state is already “taking [your] money and handing it over to people who in many instances make far more money than I do in what is nothing more than a massive entitlement program.” It’s called the public education racket. Surely you are not asserting that wealthy kids have to pay tuition to attend public schools, are you? Ergo, your money is already paying for those kids’ education!
So take the next step. Instead of paying all that money directly to the schools which have no direct accountability to the parents, let’s just give every parent a voucher for $8,000 per kid (about what we currently spend on a per-student basis) which they can give to the school of their choice. There is no better or more direct accountability anywhere!
LexWolf,
from your written statements referring to schools and the system as a whole, our schools are all failures. This would include Lexington HS, Irmo, Dutch Fork?
All of “our kids are imprisoned in a failed system?” Really? The students I taught who went on to Duke, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, USC Honors, Clemson engineering, Furman suffered from a failed system?
Is this your approach to improving eduation, use stereotypes and broad generic statements that are clearly false? You then question why educators are so resistant to such input?
There are serious problems in our educational system, the vast majority of which will not be solved by private school choice nor by bashing of our school system as a complete failure.
I happen to be in favor of choice, but I’m also realistic. Milwaukee pioneered choice for 15 years and has a 15% participation rate. What about the other 85%? Ohio just started choice and had 5% participation.
In your finger pointing, you left out parents – the very ones that are best qualified to decide for these students. What about the parent in Lexington who explained to me that her honor student wasn’t doing homework because he was sick and too tired after football practice to do the homework? How is that (NOT an isolated incident) the result of a failed school system?
These issues are more complicated that merely blaming the government and educators. BTW, there was a private school up north that was opened as part of the voucher system. The director was a convicted rapist and others involved fraud.
Randy,
If you’re in favor of choice then there should no problem at all. Let parents decide which schools get the money spent by government on their kids’ behalf and let the chips fall where they may be.
Sure you might find some bad apples in private schools but I will submit to you that parents will be very quick to get any problem fixed. If nothing else they can use a different school. Not so easy when they are in public school where accountability is so diffused, even nonexistent for all practical purposes, and change is extremely hard to effect. Everything is always someone else’s fault.
The only way to make changes in public education is through elections and public pressure, and that is a very arduous process. If you’re lucky, a moajority of voters will see things your way and things might actually change right about 2 or 3 years after your kid graduates. If other voters don’t see it your way you’re either out of luck or you move elsewhere or you spend lots of money on private schools. None of those choices are what I would consider empowering parents.
With school choice, vastly more power would rest with the parent. Schools or teachers don’t measure up and refuse to improve? Hasta la vista Blob, hello new school! Now that’s accountability – and that’s probably why “educators” hate it so much and will move heaven and earth to defeat it.
Overall, nobody has yet presented any valid arguments against empowering parents through school choice.
LexW, choice will involve at most 15% of the of the students. I fail to see how that’s the panacea that you make it out to be. If it’s such a sweeping success why hasn’t the Milwaukee system been exhalted for revolutionary changes as you describe?
The private schools have also catered a different demographic than the public schools. Out of 2000+ AP exams taken by private school students in SC this past year, 54 were taken by black students. There is an assumption that these schools are a silver bullet for all education ills yet they haven’t been exposed to the same situation (e.g. same demographics).
“Hello new school?” Most schools are already running at capacity. How will you fit the students into these new schols? How will teach these students? We already have a shortage of teachers.
“Educators move heaven and earth to resist change?” I am an educator and I support choice. A teacher friend also supports it. This is an example of how you generate your ideas from oversimplified conclusions so don’t be surprised that your ideas are brushed aside. Again, you include my Ivy League students and Irmo, Lexington and DF high schools in those broad sweeping judegements you made?
“LexW, choice will involve at most 15% of the of the students. I fail to see how that’s the panacea that you make it out to be.”
And I fail to see how it needs to be so vociferously opposed by the educracy. Surely 15% would seem to be manageable, right? If nothing else, maybe we could skip a few bond issues and new schools. The point is that those 15% would finally present some serious competition to the failed current system. Even if 85% of kids stay in public school, just the simple prospect of losing more of their students would wonderfully concentrate educrats’ minds and make them focus on better performance instead of the latest educational fad. Right now those 85% of kids are basically stuck in PubEd with no real recourse, and educrats sure know it, too.
“Most schools are already running at capacity. How will you fit the students into these new schols?”
You mean all this has to be done overnight? Surely you could see that this will take a few years to phase in, say about the same time it takes a new public school to move from being a glimmer in some educrat’s eyes to opening its doors. After all, we didn’t get to our sorry state of affairs overnight either, did we? By your logic, we shouldn’t introduce biofuels, biodiesel, E85 etc. either unless every gas station in the state (or the nation) is equipped to handle these fuels.
Even if we assume that you and your one teacher friend support choice, that doesn’t change the fact that the educational establishment as a whole is overwhelmingly opposed and will go to excruciating lengths to prevent school choice in any way, shape or form. Undeniable fact.
LexW, I admire your ability to dodge questions you apparently can’t answer and to skim the part of issues that fits your position.
First, are Lexington, Irmo, and DF high schools included in your description of “our failing schools?” Are my students that went on to Ivy League schools included in your description of “our students that suffer in our school system?”
Second, the “prospect is there for more students to be lost” will scare schools into doing better if based on faulty information. The choice systems out there now do not go beyond 15%. There is no prospect. There is a cap that won’t be extended. So you leave out reform for 85% of all students because your plan accounts for only those 15%. Not very effective.
Third, “it takes time” for your choice panacea to take effect shows a lack of understanding of the problems. If School F is failing and students use choice to transfer to School A, School A has to have more room and more teachers. It’s not time that is holding back the expansion of the school. It’s money, space on which to build and finding teachers. Explain how you will address those problems.
I for one don’t buy into this “pie in the sky” belief that choice is going to revolutionize our schools. It hasn’t any where else Wolfman, so how can you propose that it will now? Give me some FACTS that supports this as a panacea.
The educators are on the front lines where the learning actually takes place and they care about education. If meaningful and fair reform were presented, they’d be alot more open than they are to critics who blindly bash all schools ignoring the successes and improvements then offer up a fantasy solution to all the problems.
Of course even in a horrifically bad system you’ll find people who excel. That doesn’t mean that the system is thus vindicated. Go to any Third World country, for example, and you’ll find some people who are living like kings while the rest of the people barely know where their next meal will come from. Would you also say that those countries are doing great just because a few are living large? Or would you say that drastic change might be appropriate?
This is pretty much what we have in SC now. When 50% of kids don’t even finish high school and somewhere around 80% can’t read at or even near grade level, there is no way you can tell me that the current system is working.
If anything, you should be telling us just why the current system shouldn’t be drastically changed. Are you saying we’re doing just fine? Are you saying we should just come up with yet another of a long series of grand overhaul plans which somehow always only have a bunch of great-sounding rhetoric but doesn’t improve our kids’ education one iota?
Your entire mindset is educratic. So what if school B or C has to make some adjustments to accommodate more students from failing school A? Private industry does that sort of thing all the time when products fall out of favor with customers. It’s high time that education also start coming under the discipline of the market. If Henry Ford had had to labor under the type of ossified monopoly we currently see in education, we would all still be driving Model T’s.
What’s wrong with some real change?
LexWolf, do you read entire posts or just the parts that interest you?
“horrifically bad system” Answer this Lex and don’t spin or dodge (Clinton would be proud of your moves). What percent of students go on to a 4 year college from the Lexington 1, Lex-Rich5, Rich 2? I’m sure you know the answer because certainly you based your sweeping dismissal of all schools ON FACTS. These districts have a significant proportion of students, not merely a couple students as you suggest.
I didn’t say the system was a complete success because I understand that we can’t lump all schools together as one. That’s stereotyping, which reveals a lack of critical thought. Your analysis sounds like the tiresome script we hear from a minority of critics who simply offer oversimplified analysis and solutions.
You offered a solution (your own “great sounding rhetoric”) but could not support it with any FACTS. I have an educratic mind set because I want evidence or facts? Lex, you show me some FACTS to support your position then I’ll listen.
ONCE AGAIN, answer the following: How will there be pressure on schools from the threat that students will go elsewhere if only a limited number of students can actually go elsewhere?
If schools are filled to capacity now, how will there be room for the new students?
Who will teach these new students?
Where will the money come from to pay for this?
No more spin LexWolf, support your statements.
What a bogus red herring!! Wasn’t it you who claimed to be for school choice? Yet now you’re essentially saying that we can’t let parents choose between public schools because the educrats won’t be able to handle the adjustments between schools. At the same time we also can’t have private school vouchers because, well…whatever convoluted reason. What exactly is your definition of school choice? Is it simply that parents can choose whatever school they want as long as it is the same school as the Educrat Blob has ordained for them?
You have yet to show me any reasons why the failed PubEd system shouldn’t be drastically reformed, preferably privatized. With its longtime abysmal performance level (as a whole, not just 2 or 3 acceptqable schools in the entire state) surely you will be hardpressed to convince anyone that we should just continue with business as usual. I know it’s probably hard for an educrat but try, just for once, to put the interests of the kids ahead of the system’s interests. That’s supposed to be the overriding concern, isn’t i?
Our kids deserve much better than the malfeasance or nonfeasance of our current educrats. How can you blithely condemn them to such a grossly inadequate education?
Fortunately, the tide is turning against the Blob. More and more people are demanding real results instead of the constant whiny excuses they are currently getting.
If PubEd were a business it would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. People with a real choice wouldn’t stand for this mess, and that’s precisely why real school choice is such anathema to the educracy.
Lex, I am for choice, but for the principle of religious freedom. The idea that it will cure all our education ills is fantasy.
ONCE AGAIN, why don’t you support your fantasy solution with some evidence or facts. Cite an example of where choice has revolutionized the schools. Explain how the schools will expand to accomodate the new students.
I don’t blame you for dodging my questions. I’d be embarassed too if I got caught not knowing the details for my own plan.
BTW, it’s not the educators that deal with expansion of schools. The elected officials do. In fact, it’s the school boards, county council, and legislature that oversee education. I guess you failed government in our “horribly inept schools.”
Apparently, you understanding of what’s happening in our schools is very limited. I have access to some AP exam questions our “suffering students” are taking and passing for credit at major universities. I’d be glad to let you try a couple because I’m sure you’d want to “put your money where your mouth is.” Of course, you’ll dodge this like you dodge all the questions you can’t answer.
This thread is on predictions. I predict LexWolf will dodge the questions I asked about his plan to save schools.
“I don’t blame you for dodging my questions.”
You’re one to talk. I previously asked you several questions myself. So far, you haven’t answered a single one.
“I predict LexWolf will dodge the questions I asked about his plan to save schools.”
Now why would we need to “save schools” if the schools were actually doing their jobs? Your snide little comment all by itself proves the dire need for drastic reform. Your way has failed abysmally, as even you have now admitted. The real questions should be directed at the defenders of the status quo, and I have done so several times on this thread. Chief among these questions is how you can possibly defend the current system that has failed so many kids so miserably. These kids will never be able to live up to their full potential, thanks to educational malpractice. How do you justify continuing this horrible system with yet another generation of kids, and please don’t ignore this question. Please don’t play the “religious freedom” card. I’m as much in favor of that as anyone but if it’s a choice between another generation of uneducated kids and giving parents the choice to choose even religious schools, I have no difficulty at all choosing in favor of properly educated kids!!
Besides, since the current PubEd way has not even come close to achieving its goals, why should school choice proponents have to come up with perfect plans and dot every i and cross every t. The educrats don’t!!
Predition Comes True: LexWolf Continues to Dodge.
Lex, you’re the one who came charging in here boasting of a plan to fix our schools. All I asked was you support those claims. Because you can’t, you dodge the question.
Anytime you want to take some AP questions my “suffering students” pass to get credit for major universities you let me know.
Come Lexy, let that butt cash those checks your mouth keeps writing.
LexWolf,
you did boast that private school vouchers (“the market” as you put it) would fix education. I also would like to know how you handle sending more students to schools that are already full.
Another good point is where have we seen “the market” work as you said it will for schools?
Those sound reasonable questions to answer for a plan you offered.
“I also would like to know how you handle sending more students to schools that are already full.”
I already answered that above. Private companies handle expansion all the time and you have shown no evidence that they couldn’t do so again in this case as well. If you mean public schools can’t handle additional demands, then you’ve just admitted to one of the reasons why we should privatize the system in the first place.
“Another good point is where have we seen “the market” work as you said it will for schools?”
I’ll tell you just as soon as you tell me where in this country a full marketbased education system (i.e. vouchers for everyone) has ever been allowed. The usual procedure for the Blob is to fight school choice tooth and nail. If any choice at all is allowed, it is first made so limited in scope or numbers as to be meaningless and then there are lawsuits out the wazoo to drown even that little bit of school choice. Why is that? Why don’t the educrats allow a full trial, say a whole city or even a state? If school choice is really as terrible as they claim, it would surely fail and be abolished again right away, right? Unfortunately the Blob knows that it would work quite well and that’s why it must be prevented at all costs.
So again, show me where full choice has been allowed and I’ll show you where full choice has worked.
Randy,
still no answers to my questions, I see. You’re not doing a very good job defending the educrat Blob, I must say!
this is one of the better conversations I’ve come across in a while. Just a reminder, many of the same people that are for school choice were in favor of segregation 50-60 years ago. I guess we would be better off had SC schools not been integrated. LW, your comment about the wealthy not wanting vouchers is absurd. Most wealthy people achieve that status because they work very hard, but they are just like anybody else, if they can get something for free, they take it. Look at our glorious presidents tax breaks for the wealthiest 1% of Americans. Come on, do you really believe that Sanford and his cronies really want their kids going to school with SC’s poorest and most downtrodden? Oh, where does Sanford send his kids to school? It’s sure not where they are zoned living in the govenor’s mansion which is fine by me as long as he and not me is footing the bill.
Lex Wolf, let me get this straight. You offer choice as the panacea for all of our education ills, but you have absolutely no proof that it will work?
You have answered one of my questions and proved my point. Keep “fighting tooth and nail” for a system for which you have no evidence that it will work and for which you have no suggestion for how to address the problems inherent in it.
BTW, there’s already a thread entitled circular logic. You should have posted your circular logic on that thread: educators can’t solve the problems for your faulty reform plan which is an example of why we need your faulty reform plan.
LexWolf, seeing how you loathe using statistics to support your broad disparaging statements about all SC schools and “students suffering in our schools”, I have actual stats:
Spring Valley HS: 61% of ’06 grads going on to 4 year college; $15 MILLION in total scholarships (colleges give scholarships to suffering students from a failed school?)
Lexington-Richland 5: 1082 SAT ave this past year. The NATIONAL average was 1028. More suffering students.
In 2005, SC students passed 56% of all AP exams taken (passed a national college level exam – poor suffering students).
Your broad generalization of all schools in SC being bad is misguided, counterproductive, and simply put BOGUS. When you came into this site spouting off about how bad all schools are, I didn’t disagree that there are many problems. I took issue with your oversimplification of the situation.
Lexwolf,
Are you suggesting that private schools will be built to meet this new demand? With what money? The proposed 7-8K/per student I hear tossed around isn’t going to touch that kind of building need.
Also I am amazed to hear people refer to government handouts (vouchers) as integral to “market based education.” Can somebody give me a voucher for other market based stuff, like buying a new car? Please?
Lastly, as to those dreaded educrats, who do you think is going to be running those private schools? Are the private schools going to be hiring teachers and administrators who have no experience in the public system? The people you are calling educrats now only work for the public sector because that’s where the jobs are. If you create a new, state-subsidized “private” sector, AND IT PAYS MORE, then they’ll just go join it. If it pays less, then the really loser ones from the public sector will go work there..ensuring that children educated at those institution stink at math, perhaps..I guess I’m still searching for how this will help a whole state.
Uncle E, excellent contribution. LexW won’t answer your questions. He’ll respond with his own questions then argue that you should answer his questions.
“You offer choice as the panacea for all of our education ills, but you have absolutely no proof that it will work?”
Gotta love ya, Randy! Let’s just say for the sake of argument that I have no proof choice works. That still puts me miles ahead of the anti-choice crowd where is massive and incontrovertible proof that the system is failing and has been failing for decades. How dare you insist that kids should continue to be imprisoned in this miserable system?
How about some proof from you that continuing along the same failed path would work better than trying something different like school choice? Clearly choice can hardly do any worse than the current system.
It’s really pathetic to see you repeatedly trotting out the same couple or three schools in the state that might work reasonably well (there are some good apples in every garbage heap, you know). Now how about the statistics for the entire state and especially the hel1holes? How many kids go to college from Allendale or Marion, for example?
“Are you suggesting that private schools will be built to meet this new demand?”
Of course. In case you missed it this is how private business usually does things. Once a potential market is identified investors step in and fill the need in the hope of making a profit down the road.
“With what money? The proposed 7-8K/per student I hear tossed around isn’t going to touch that kind of building need.”
Many Catholic schools seem to get by with $4,000/year or so. The initial building needs could be filled with bonds guaranteed by the school district, just as they are now. Public schools are also not paid for right away but only over the course of 10, 20 or even 30 years. Why would you expect private schools to be paid for immediately?
“Also I am amazed to hear people refer to government handouts (vouchers) as integral to “market based education.”
Not hard to understand at all. If we are to have public and private education compete on a level playing field then the resources made available must be at least roughly even. No marketbased system will ever work where one provider is essentially free while the other one charges $8,000 or more per year. Give parents vouchers and then we will see which system provides more bang for the buck.
“Can somebody give me a voucher for other market based stuff, like buying a new car? Please?”
Just be patient. Given enough time I’m sure some liberal will identify new cars as a basic human right and have the Feds buy you one!
Lex Wolf followed the script – predictable.
Here’s the script he’s following (hence the name “Ditto Head” – see parrotting):
Boast of a solution, offer no supporting evidence, defend position by insisting the burden of proof is to show his plan won’t work.
Make broad disparaging claim, when given counterexamples that prove him wrong, shift broad disparaging claim to from all to most.
When the validity of his claim is challenged, simply repeat claim like a mantra – the Dorthy (“no place like home…no place like home”) approach, keep saying it and it will become true.
Lex, here’s how you lost credibility.
You disparaged schools with broad, oversimplified statements claiming they were all bad and all students suffered in the horrible schools. I gave you SOME counterexamples that clearly prove you wrong.
You boasted of a plan that will revolutionize education. When asked about the details of this plan, you defend yourself by attacking the person challenging you. Three people now have asked you to provide details which you won’t and can’t.
You criticized me for wanting the status quo simply because I didn’t agree with your plan. I favor major changes, none of which you have bothered to ask about. Your blanket statements about schools and educators, including me, is an explicit example of prejudice. It reveals a lack of critical thought.
Your insistence that your plan, which has not transformed school systems anywhere even though they’ve been put into action, reveals you as an ideologue as opposed to a reformer. This will help our schools not in the least.
“You disparaged schools with broad, oversimplified statements claiming they were all bad and all students suffered in the horrible schools.”
Did I really? Can you give me any quotes to that effect from my earlier posts? Methinks you’ve been laboring mightily to put up a strawman rather than answering any of my questions!!
“Your insistence that your plan, which has not transformed school systems anywhere even though they’ve been put into action,…”
I’ve asked you before to produce an example of full school choice in action. I’m still waiting.
P.S. I generally don’t worry about my credibility with educrats – after all, they have precious little credibility left themselves after miserably failing to educate our kids for decades.
Lex, I didn’t realize you didn’t even know what you had written previously. Here are some of your gems in which you refer to schools, “educrats” and students in blanket terms.
“…the absolutely atrocious performance of our public schools.”
“Why are “educators” so deathly afraid of having to prove themselves …”
Our kids deserve much better than the malfeasance …blithely condemn them to such a grossly inadequate education?”
Those statements address groups as a whole. If you want to amend your disparaging remarks to “some” or even “many” go ahead and correct yourself.
Lex, here’s your most amusing statement to date. In response to 3 people asking you to offer evidence that your plan will work, you offered this:
“So again, show me where full choice has been allowed and I’ll show you where full choice has worked.”
In one sentence, you both admit that there is no evidence that full choice will work and claim it will work.
Again, you offer a plan for which you have no evidence it will work. You then disparage people who don’t accept your unsubstantiated plan.
Lex, you provide such a compelling argument for your plan, “it will work because I think it will,” I don’t understand why people don’t flock to it!
Where in those 3 quotes do I refer to ALL? Sure, as a general rule I stand behind those statements but you know quite well that there are exceptions to every rule. I know you know that because you keep trotting out those 2 or 3 exceptions every chance you get while sweeping the abysmal performance of the vast majority of schools under the rug.
Now how about an answer to this earlier question: How about some proof from you that continuing along the same failed path would work better than trying something different like school choice?
That was a lame response. “everybody knows there are exceptions”
would be represented by the qualifier “most.”
Here’s a list of high schools just in the Midlands area in which the majority of seniors go on to 4 year colleges (that I know of):
Flora, Dreher, RV, SV, RNE, Irmo, DF, Lex, Airport, BC, WK, Chapin
The majority of those students moved on to the next level. They certainly didn’t “suffer” as you stated.
This is more than a couple “exceptions.”
ONCE AGAIN, I never stated I was for the status quo. You assumed I was simply because I didn’t buy into your plan. All along I have asked you to offer proof of your plan and took issue with your blanket oversimplificaiton of our schools.
“Here’s a list of high schools just in the Midlands area in which the majority of seniors go on to 4 year colleges (that I know of):
Flora, Dreher, RV, SV, RNE, Irmo, DF, Lex, Airport, BC, WK, Chapin”
Do you have a link for that assertion or did you just pull that list out of the air? Also how about the numbers for Allendale, Marion and other failing school systems? I’ve asked you that before and never got an answer.
I’m not sure why you keep asking for “proof” that school choice works? Thanks to the educracy school choice has never been tried so how can there be “proof” that it works? On the other hand we do have clear and convincing proof that the current system fails at least half of its students. Tell me why we should continue with that failed system instead of trying something new. I’ve asked you 2 or 3 times now. Do you have an answer or not?
It is quite clear that choice and competition works in every other field, including higher education, and there is no reason to believe that it wouldn’t work at the K-12 level as well. BTW, you never explained why it’s OK for public funds to go the student’s or parent’s college of choice but not to the K-12 school of choice. Would you like to try an explanation now?
Lex,
You are proposing public $ be spent on mobility and to build new schools – I’m sorry but that doesn’t really come across as different than what we do now. The big difference is that (however poor your opinion of the process) the current system at least allows for the hope of oversight. How will we ever get that when each school is run by different private contractors, and staffed by refugees from the public school system?
Also, I’m not really satisfied about the Catholic schools doing better ($-wise) comment. I’m not a Catholic, and I’m not really interested in seeing any of my tax money going to support doctrinal training in a religion I’m not an adherent of. Indeed I find that the issue of public $ support going to religious institutions is something that often gets glossed over in these public/private school discussions.
In practically every example one can think of, market choice improves quality and performance. Take the Post Office. Would anyone want to go back to the time when you could not ship via UPS, Fedex, and others? If the postal workers union had been as strong as the NEA, the USPS would still be a monopoly. Even though the public schools are not in effect a monopoly, they are not open to true competition either. So we have what we have and the status quo supporters fight against even the ability to experiment with vouchers and true choice in education. Why?
Lex, this is tiresome. You are like a 5 year old that needs to be told 8 times to do something.
You started this debate by bashing ALL schools as you referred to the school system as a whole. I took issue with this oversimplification and offered you counterexamples. You then dismissed these as “exceptions.” I offered more examples. You then point out examples of the many schools that have problems. That’s alot different than all schools.
You offered up a solution. I asked for supporting evidence. Your argument was to criticize me for being for the status quo and against change. Then you won’t answer questions (again, 5 year old) because I won’t answer your questions about why I defend the status quo, when I DON’T SUPPORT the status quo (hheelloooo!!!).
This all leads me to believe that you are not interested in meaningful reform, but are simply an ideologue. Otherwise you would defend your position. Again, I can’t answer your questions because they don’t pertain to me. How about laying off the 1st grade playground tactics and support your ideas?
Dave,
the answer is obvious. The school choice opponents on this thread either have a direct personal interest in the current system (i.e. a job) or they are ideologically opposed to people making their own decisions.
I really wish you would stop your name-calling. I also wish you would stop trying to put words in my mouth in a failing effort to prop up your strawman argument. I have yet to see any real answers from you to my past questions. I suspect that is because you really know that your system is indefensible.
Let’s be honest: the real issue is the undeniable fact that the current system as a whole is an abysmal failure, a few exceptions notwithstanding. People increasingly want more control over their kids’ education and you guys are fighting tooth and nail to keep them on the educrat plantation. Fortunately for our kids, this is a desperate rearguard fight because change will come and you know it.
“the current system at least allows for the hope of oversight. How will we ever get that when each school is run by different private contractors, and staffed by refugees from the public school system?”
What’s wrong with the most direct accountability system imaginable, the ability of parents to select the school their kids will attend? If they are not satisfied with the services provided, you can bet that they will insist on accountability from the school. And they will get it in record time, at the latest by the time the next school year starts.
Lex, very tiresome and I find your approach to this debate to be childish – you may as well cover your ears and chant “I can’t hear you”.
I am not for the status quo, I see serious problems in our school system and I want change. Your questions are directed to why I support the status quo, which I don’t, so I can’t answer your questions. Why do you keep asking them (very tiresome)?
You once again (tiresome) suggest that the entire system, save a couple exceptions, is terribe. I have given your more than a couple exceptions, 12 high schools in the Midlands alone, as counterexamples yet you keep insistenting that those are only exceptions (previously you said 3 were excpetions now 12).
If you want meaningful dialogue, I’m game. If you want to blindly bash the entire system and insist that anyone who doesn’t support your plan are misguided supporters of the status quo, then I’ll continue to call you out for this childish approach.
“I have given your more than a couple exceptions, 12 high schools in the Midlands alone, as counterexamples”
Wrong. You asserted certain “counterexamples”. I’m still waiting for the links supporting those “counterexamples”. You know, the links I asked you for?!
Calling someone else “tiresome” and “childish” certainly doesn’t serve to support your argument. If anything it makes it abundantly clear that you can’t defend your own point of view, despite being given numerous chances to answer my questions.
You keep saying that you don’t support the status quo and want change yet you haven’t provided even one example of the type of change you would favor. Methinks it’s probably just more educrat mumbojumbo that wouldn’t work.
Lex, Methinks you don’t have any answers aside from scripted rhetoric.
You started this debate with a claim that private schools will solve all the problems of our schools. Three people asked your for details. Your response is “give me details of your plan.” Again, you may as well cover your ears and repeat “I can’t hear you.”
You put out a plan so justify your plan. Spare us the playground antics.
“You started this debate with a claim that private schools will solve all the problems of our schools.”
Once again, show me where I ever said that school choice would solve “all the problems” of our schools. It won’t — and neither should it be expected to do so!
Yours is a typical educrat response. Even though your public schools have massive problems and barely solve any problems at all you want school choice to be perfect and solve all problems. I submit to you that school choice would solve a much larger fraction of our school problem than your public schools could ever hope to solve.
Let’s stay on a level playing field here. The point is not that school choice would solve all problems but that it would solve many more than your system ever could. Not surprising, of course, considering that government monopolies have never been known for their effectiveness and efficiency.
Hey, Lex answered a question…and it took a mere 10 posts to do so. Take that a step further and actually justify your plan…in less than ten posts please.
How will the good schools accomodate the influx of students from the bad schools?
Where will the new teachers come from?
Will the vouchers cover the expenses for hiring the new teachers and building space?
Do the private schools now want all these new students?
You keep trying to pin me down as a defender of the status quo, “a typical educrat.” That’s laughable because I do NOT like the status quo and have submitted posts with some of the major problems I see.
All I have done is ask for you to justify your plan and to challenge the notion that all SC schools are bad. Not only is that not defending the status quo, but it’s mere critical analysis of your positions. Are you suggesting that everyone should blindly accept your position or is it that you can not support your statements.
Answer the questions three of us have asked about your plan…if you can.
Randy,
it’s rather saddening that you continue to ask the same disingenuous questions that you long ago should have known the answers for, considering that you’re an educrat. I guess inquisitevess and curiosity isn’t part of your job description.
It’s also very saddening that you refuse to provide any answers to the questions I asked of you.
I have no intention of rewriting everything that you should already know about school choice but here’s a good start for getting many of your questions answered: http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/index.html
If you haven’t exposed yourself to this information before, I strongly urge you to do so now as then you will no longer have to ask inane questions like the ones in your last post.
However, here’s a little scenario for you. Let’s just say that we make universal vouchers available and otherwise nothing at all changes. That is, concerning your 4 questions in your last post, no kids transfer from bad schools to better schools, no new teachers are hired, the vouchers don’t cover the expenses, and private schools don’t take additional students. I can see you already high-fiving yourself and gleefully jumping up and down. Yippee! School choice is a failure and your job is secure…..not so fast!!
This would simply be the status quo, except that all parents now would have vouchers, preferably in the same amounts as the public schools spend per student. Just the mere existence of those vouchers would probably be enough to get educrats off their duffs and would probably improve test scores by 10% to 20%, before even a single student switches to another school. Those vouchers would revolutionize our current school system but they are worthless, of course, as long as they can’t be used outside of the public schools. However, I’d bet you $1,000 to a donut that this situation would change quickly, and all without some grand plan that you keep demanding. Entrepreneurs would see the potential for a profit and quickly line up the investments needed to provide parents with a realistic alternative in which they can use their vouchers. It might take a couple of years before the schools are built and teachers are hired but change will happen quickly after that.
But let’s say you’re right and all this school choice stuff would never work. What do you have to lose? If you are right and school choice can’t hack it, those parents would have no choice but to sign over their vouchers to the public schools and have their kids stay where they are now. In other words, again the status quo – the kids would still be in public schools and all the money would still be there, too, plus after a couple or three years of no alternatives becoming available, the whole voucher thing would probably be abolished.
However, we all know that you’re wrong and just the opposite would happen. Wherever feasible, alternatives would spring up and educrats would finally be forced to shape up or ship out. I know it, you know it, and the entire educrat establishment knows it, too. That’s why you constantly keep demanding some perfect plan, a plan your public schools wouldn’t come anywhere close to meeting themselves. That’s why the educracy fights tooth and nail against vouchers in any way, shape or form. That’s why, if vouchers can’t be defeated completely, the educracy makes sure that the voucher amounts are grossly inadequate (far from the amount public schools spend per student) and that there are so many restrictions as to make use of the vouchers very difficult. Nothing scares the educracy more than competition on a level playing field. It may take a while yet but change is coming whether you like it or not. I certainly have high hopes for Karen Floyd if she follows through on her parental choice promises.
Let’s give all parents the same choice they have when they buy any other product or service.
Lex, I keep beating the same drum because you keep doing the same Bill Clinton dance around the issues.
Let’s try this again.
Lex, you popped into this site and proposed a plan and blindly disparaged all schools as bad.
I took issue with the stereotyping of all schools and asked you for details of your plan.
You responded that I was an “educrat” who was “scared of change” and was a defender of the status quo. Then, instead of defending your plan with details, you asked me questions. Slick Willie would be proud of those moves.
ONCE AGAIN, not only do I not support the status quo, I want meaningful change. YOU only ASSumed I do.
I also want you to provide the details for you plan – 3 people have asked you. This is approximately the 12th request for those details. Can you support you plan or not?
Lex, here’s what’s wrong with jumping into your plan.
First, it’s not a matter of opening the door and saying come on in. You think this is like having a garage sale?
Second, if the kids transfer to new schools, how do they physically fit into the new schools? Who is hired to teach them? How will this be paid? Do the private schools want to grow? Spare us the bull crap that educators should be able to handle this. Remember, the students transferred out from these public schools, they belong to the private sector now.
Third, the time spent on this plan takes away time, energy, and resources from meaningful reform. Supporters of your plan will want to give it lots of time to work – years!
You’ll respond that it’s better than keeping what we have now. I agree. So let’s get meaningful reform in lieu of your plan for which you have no details and you have no evidence that it has ever worked…unless of course you can actually justify your plan.
You can’t really be as obtuse as you pretend to be. I have never said that all schools are bad. You said that, trying to put words in my mouth, and you’ve been repeating it ever since even though you were unable to find a single instance where I said “ALL schools…”. I also never proposed a plan, in the sense of A, B, C, D, etc. etc. I proposed an overall philosophy of putting educational control in the hands of parents rather than you educrats. Why should I “support” a claim I never made?
If I had to propose a “plan” it would simply be to give parents control through a voucher system or some other system where they, not educrats, decide on their kids’ education. You know, one where the money follows their kid to whatever school they pick, not one where educrats decide on the school and the only way out is to pay extra for a private school. The details of the “plan” are quite flexible but it would finally do away with the educrat plantation system.
Since you are so obsessed with a “plan” how about telling us what your “plan” is? I’ve asked you more than once and haven’t received an answer yet. You also haven’t backed up your own assertions, despite several requests from me.
Now would you like to have a serious discussion or do you intend to continue arguing against something I never said?
What exactly would you consider “meaningful reform”? Another $billion thrown at the problem? $2 billion? $5 billion?
The only really meaningful reform is to introduce competition into education. It works everywhere else in our society – why shouldn’t it work here, too?
You really ought to get away from your bureaucratic mindset. Not everything needs to be planned down to the millisecond. Just put parents fully in charge and things will take care of themselves quite easily, just like they do everywhere else in our economic system. A good school will attract customers. A slovenly, substandard service like the current system won’t. Simple as that.
AAAhhh, Slick Lexie is back tracking on the disparaging remarks and on the “plan.”
First of all, you did use broad generalizations to criticize schools and teachers:
“I generally don’t worry about my credibility with educrats – after all, they have precious little credibility left themselves after miserably failing to educate our kids for decades.”
I guess we were to infer that you mean SOME “educrats” or MANY or MOST?
You did offer choice as your plan. A “philosophy” would be to simply state a belief that parents should be in charge because that’s the right thing to do. You went beyond that. You explained in DETAIL how this would play itself out. Along with the definition of “plan” are you going to debate the definition of “is” also?
You have disparaged my profession (e.g. “educators” with the quotes to imply that we aren’t really educating anyone) and all SC schools. I find that reckless and ignorant.
If you truely cared about improving education, you would focus more on working towards a solution than spouting off blind criticism for anyone that didn’t defer to your position.
I have offered suggestions and cited what I believe are atrocities in our system. I don’t bother to share them with you because I think you care only for your ideology and not for helping our kids.
I will repeat what I posted previously in response to your disparaging comments about our schools.
The passing rate for AP exams taken by PUBLIC school students last year was 54%. That means that more often than not our SC students showed a level of mastery on COLLEGE level content to earn COLLEGE credit. That’s a whole lot of learning which certainly contradicts your assertion that all or most of what happens in our schools is terrible.
“I guess we were to infer that you mean SOME “educrats” or MANY or MOST?”
You can infer whatever you wish but don’t put words in my mouth!
“You explained in DETAIL how this would play itself out.”
If I explained the “plan” in DETAIL then what in the world have you been bellyaching about for the past 30 or 40 posts?
“I have offered suggestions and cited what I believe are atrocities in our system.”
You have? Where?
“The passing rate for AP exams taken by PUBLIC school students last year was 54%.”
What does that mean? 54% of all public school kids passed AP exams? Or 54% of AP students passed the exam at the end of the course? If the former that’s great but I highly doubt that this would be the case. If the latter, then it’s pitiful. It would mean that either way too many students were put in AP courses who never could have mastered the material or that the teachers did a p***poor job of teaching the kids. Which is it?
What about the 50% of SC kids who don’t even graduate? You never say anything about that! Educrats generally come up with a whole plethora of excuses, some justified and some not justified, for why this staggering dropout rate isn’t really their fault. Nor do educrats want to accept the blame for the 80% or so of kids who can’t read or do math at grade level. Sorry but that doesn’t wash with me. If you want to claim credit for the few successes of the current system (mostly kids who succeeded in spite of the educrats rather than because of them) then you must also accept blame for the many failures.
Slick Lexie, spin those stats!
12,000 SC students took 20,000+ AP Exams and 54% of those AP exams were passed. The national average was 58% so this is not some atrocious rate as you stated.
I used this as evidence that your disparaging remarks that our system is a complete failure is clearly wrong. 54% of 20,000 exams is hardly “a few exceptions.”
“Most kids who succeed in spite of educrats” is another example of your reckless and ignorant perception of what’s happening in our schools.
ONCE AGAIN, I do accept the many failures. That’s why I favor reform. That’s why I voted for Staton because he wanted to take a BUSINESS approach to evaluating our system and hold everyone accountable.
Interesting how the 50% who do not finish high school is completely the educators fault. I didn’t realize we were to be the parents in this situation too. Can you explain this Lexie?
Share with us Lexie, when was the last time you witnessed first hand what’s happening in our schools and saw what the “educrats” are handling?
Where were you when I helped a refugee from Afghanistan advance from learning his multiplication tables in 8th grade to making an A in my algebra class, and eventually on to college?
Where were you when I had a parent explain to me why her honors student was not doing his homework: he had been sick for a couple weeks and was too tired each day from football practice to do the work.
Where were you when a student had to be readmitted to school BY LAW even though he had a knife and graphic poems about killing a girl in his bookbag.
Where were you when the father of one of my students stood up his son who had been waiting for a ride to a grandfather’s funeral? The student, surprise, didn’t study for his test in my class the next day.
Where were you when a teacher at my school was threatened with a lawsuit because she caught a girl cheating?
The issue of education is a little more complex that you suggest. Your comments disparaging the schools and the educators is simply put, ignorant. I’ll be glad to let you take some of these AP exams to see how you fare. I’ll be glad to let you come in and substitute for some classes.
I admit to the many problems and believe we need to do a much better job. To make this happen requires more than mean-spirited rhetoric and overly simplified plans.
“12,000 SC students took 20,000+ AP Exams”
As of 2002 we had 648,000 students (more now, of course) in K-12 so 12,000 taking the AP exams is hardly earthshaking, wouldn’t you agree? Again you trot out the small minority succeeding in your shaky system, kids who would succeed anyway, and totally ignore the 320,000+ kids who dropped out or will drop out. I’ve asked you a number of times now to explain your system’s performance but you totally ignore all the poor results, and my questions. Why is that?
“That’s why I voted for Staton because he wanted to take a BUSINESS approach to evaluating our system and hold everyone accountable.”
And he didn’t win precisely because his approach was just more of the tired old blah blah masquerading as something new. Fortunately enough Republicans saw through his charade. The true BUSINESS approach is to let PARENTS choose which school gets the money the state spends on their kid’s behalf. Competition is GOOD!
“Interesting how the 50% who do not finish high school is completely the educators fault. I didn’t realize we were to be the parents in this situation too.”
Are you saying the dropout rate is all the parents’ fault? If not, exactly how much of the dropout rate should be the educrats’ responsibility?
“when was the last time you witnessed first hand what’s happening in our schools and saw what the “educrats” are handling?”
2004, when my second-youngest child graduated from HS.
“Where were you….” yadda yadda yadda
We all have our crosses to bear. That doesn’t excuse the poor performance of our schools. If you buy a defective item at a department store do you just say to yourself that it’s your own fault or do you go back to the store for an item that works or your money back? Once again, you exhibit a clear refusal to accept responsibility. As usual for educrats it’s always somebody else’s fault. That’s not saying that there aren’t bad kids or bad parents in the system but I doubt that even you would claim that all failures of your system are because the parent didn’t take the kid to a funeral or because the kid had a knife etc. etc.
“I’ll be glad to let you take some of these AP exams to see how you fare.”
Send them over. It’s been over 20 years since I got my MBA but those exams can’t be all that difficult, can they?
“I’ll be glad to let you come in and substitute for some classes.”
What, I’m supposed to do your job for you now, too? What’s your point? If I buy an item and it turns out to be of low quality, does that mean I have to work in the manufacturer’s factory first before I can criticize the poor workmanship?
“I admit to the many problems and believe we need to do a much better job.”
Finally we’re getting somewhere. However, I submit to you that more of the same old “solutions” (you know, like throwing yet more $millions at the problem or moving some boxes on an organizational chart or some new educrat fad or great-sounding rhetoric) won’t do it. The only way to make sure that you educrats do your job better is to hold your feet to the fire by making it possible for parents to move their kids off your plantation. Competition is GOOD!
Slick Lexie, it took me all of 5 seconds to read your post – that’s how much time I bothered to spend on it.
You many as well stand on the sideline because you offer little to the debate other than disparaging remarks and a pie in the sky solution. Let those who are willing to do the work handle this.
The problems I listed are real and hardly isolated events. Clearly your son passing a couple algebra courses at a single school gave you all the insight you need for this issue. Similarly, I put $25 into my tank the other day and I have the whole fuel issue figured out.
Education is too important for this oversimplistic approach of disparaging the entire profession and offering a plan for which you have no justification – no evidence that it has worked before or answers for questions several have asked about the problems in your plan.
Lexie, keep up your propaganda, I’m sure some are listening. It won’t be anyone involved in what will improve our schools because that’s not your interest.
Thank you for conceding the debate, Randy. For that I’ll even excuse your failure to answer any of the questions in my previous post.
Slick Lexie, the only thing I’m conceeding is that meaningful discourse with you is a lost cause. You are only interested in bashing schools in ignorant and reckless fashion and offering a pie in the sky plan for which you can’t support.
Again, you add nothing to the debate except hateful ideology. Anyone willing to discuss the issue has two choices. Either we agree fully with your remarks or we offer dialogue while you cover your ears and chant “I can’t hear you” as a 2nd grader would. Very effective for your purposes but meaningless for reform.
“the only thing I’m conceeding is that meaningful discourse with you is a lost cause.”
Really? Do you consider it meaningful discourse to not answer any of my questions
or to spend “all of 5 seconds to read [my] post”? If anyone refuses to engage in meaningful discourse it’s you.
“Either we agree fully with your remarks or we offer dialogue while you cover your ears and chant “I can’t hear you” as a 2nd grader would.”
Now if that’s not a textbook example of what psychologists call “projection”!! Remember, it was you who repeatedly insisted on putting words in my mouth. It was you who demands some grand “plan” to solve all problems yet refused to provide any justification for your failed system despite numerous requests from me.
“Again, you add nothing to the debate except hateful ideology.”
What’s so hateful or ideological about wanting to give parents full control over where the government spends their education money?
The hate comes in your disparaging remarks of “educators” (note your use of quotation marks) or “educrats” (your other choice) and your bashing of the entire system all of which is highly offensive.
The hate comes in your demeaning criticism of anyone that doesn’t accept your position out of hand.
Early on you stated “Don’t get me wrong. I’m not against public education.” You have contradicted yourself with these hateful statements.
There are many teachers working very hard, working long hours, and finding tremendous success. They are in the business to help young people. They make this their profession and their life.
These are real people and real issues. Your broad overly simplistic criticism isn’t meaningful discourse. It’s mean-spirited and mindless. Again, you are not interested in making our society better and helping our young people. You intentions seem more focused on a hateful ideology.
Aw, give it up already, Randy. Once you started ranting about “hateful ideology” and all that jazz it was quite clear that you have no substantive arguments left.
You are right about one thing though. Yes, “these are real people and real issues” and that’s precisely why it’s high time to wrest these issues away from the educracy and put parents in complete control of how the education dollars for their kids are spent. If you guys did such a great job as you keep claiming then you shouldn’t have anything to worry about because parents would just leave their kids in your schools. However, if you’re not doing such a great job (as you will at least subconsciously agree), how dare you insist that we should continue spending gobs and gobs of money on a substandard service? It’s simply unconscionable and immoral to continue imprisoning our kids on your failed plantation.
Your “real people” comment in fact is a disturbing example of the educrat mindset. We are supposed to back off educrats and treat them with deference because they are “real people”, after all, but what about those numerous kids they have utterly failed? Aren’t they “real people” as well who deserve far better than what they have received so far?
Competition is GOOD.
On the college level, The State reported today that USC “held” their tuition increases down to ONLY 6.5% or thereabouts. Probably 3% to cover inflation and 3.5% for Steve Spurrier’s wish list. Once again the students, parents, and taxpayers get hosed.
Lex, your comments towards our schools and our educators are absolutely hateful.
You marginalized yourself in this debate when you couldn’t defend your position but insisted you were right anyway.
I find many of the problems in education not only unacceptable, but a gross injustice. It’s a shame that you are so blinded by your ideology and egotism that you can’t engage in meaningful dialogue.
You continue your hate and propaganda. I’ll look to talk real reform.
Randy,
still no valid arguments, I see, other than ranting and raving. Anyway, I’ll leave this thread behind now. You can join me on the Actual Reality thread. Maybe you’ll surprise me and come up with some serious discussion there.
Lex, you marginalized yourself. You add nothing to the debate but hate and an myopic, egotistical view of what should be done. I’m through with this thread and with you.