Warren Bolton sent me this earlier today, and I was going to try to watch the links myself before post it, but it’s going to be so many hours — and probably tomorrow — before I can get to that, I’ll let y’all go ahead and get a head start:
Brad, thought I’d forward to you what someone shared with me. They are video clips of Wright. The first is a longer version of the "God Damn America" sermon. It won’t change your mind, but it puts more context around his comments.
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=8pedwsGGGp0
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=8pedwsGGGp0
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=9HjSoMZ7y7A
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=-w5I1MR1NBg
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ThIdzzb0zc
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=6yOR_srOUI0
- http://youtube.com/watch?v=ckz6H3IbYzc
Warren, as you’ll recall, had a column on the subject this week — with a different take from mine.
Related Posts
Bolton couldn’t be more wrong or offensive on this.
He is either a shameless apologist for the kind of hate Wright offers or else he’s trying to make the case that the vitriol and hate spewing from Wrights bigoted lips are a “black thing that white people wouldn’t understand.” Either way, Bolton sounds like he’s “doing an Obama” and putting the angry reaction throughout America down to “typical white people.” My how simplistic and patronizing and offensive this bullsh*t is. But it’s OK when a black guy says it.
Boltons words bely a cynical double standard held in the minds of many many black people: It is fine when Bolton or Wright or Jesse Jackson or Obama want to blame things they don’t like on “typical white people.” But there is literal hell to pay if any white person anywhere EVER speaks of typical black people, concerning anything. And yet here Bolton is making the tacit case that Wrights’ brand of bigotry is pervasive among those very typical black people in churches across america.
So.
Apologist?
Or just a black thing that white people are going to have to accept, like it or fricking not.
Either way Bolton exposes himself as a huge part of the problem and not in any way part of the solution. David
I am referring of course to the opinions Bolton put in his column, linked above. Dave
David,
It is interesting how you claim there is “hell to pay” for statements about “typical black people”. “Typical black people” wasn’t just a comment but a way of life – an experience. Typical black people could not sit at a lunch counter in Woolworth, could not vote in SC, and sat in a crumbling one room school house with 50 classmates. These typical black people are now in their 60s and share these stories with their grandkids – probably with some resentment.
The first video posted above addresses this context. Any of us with religious faith would agree that God would not like such treatment of his sheep as He would not like the hateful rhetoric of Wright. As a Catholic, I am profoundly offended by the hateful positions and comments of Falwell, Hagee, and Robertson. They co-opt my Christian faith to dismiss the death of thousands of Americans as punishment. Bolton and Obama are lobbying for a dialogue about these deeper issues.
Wright speaks of such divine retribution and is seen as a hateful racist with ubiquitous snippets of his sermons in the news. White extremist pastors suggest 3,000 Americans died for other people’s “sins” and are welcomed into the McCain camp with minimal fallout.
Obama spoke of anxieties involved in race. I believe that many if not most white people, if in the situation Obama described, would have something cross their mind. This is an example of frank and honest dialogue Obama has dared to initiate.
The defense of Wright by pointing out other candidates’ endorsements falls short for me. Politicians always have accepted controversial endorsements from those who they feel represent a large voting populous (whether that is by race, religion, or national organization). If Obama was accepting an endorsement from Wright to do the same, then this argument would be valid..but that is not the case. He has a close personal friendship with this man, considers him his “spiritual advisor”, and he and his wife/children have attended this church and listened to this racial rhetoric for 20 years.
Obama worked his charismatic juju and people of all races who want to see the racial hatred brought to an end bought into it lock, stock, and barrel. As I’ve stated before, his speech was great and will probably secure his place in history. But did it answer how you can be a member of a church, make it your home, allow your children to listen to this racial hate, and view the deliverer of these sermons as your “family”? No. It made comparisons to having a crazy uncle, painted his white grandmother as a racist, and made an attempt to play on the long-held “white guilt” to excuse it.
I’m done with discussing this. Those in the Obama camp who don’t want to see their false idol fall will continue to excuse his association. However, some of us in the Obama camp have taken our blinders off and turned away from the Koolaid. I have personally defended Obama when each and every smear tactic has arisen. I was willing to look away from his lack of experience in hopes for a POTUS that truly could achieve racial unity. I was even willing to look away from his other political stances that I don’t agree with because the hopes of joining this country as one AMERICAN race is that important to me. But the magic juju has ended.
Randy, do you think your “revelations” about lunch counters and voting rights and one room schools are news to anyone? Believe me, no one has been allowed to forget these things for a single second in the last 60 years, so you surely are not telling anyone anything they don’t already know. I don’t know exactly how old Bolton is, but he is almost certainly younger than I am, which means that the lunch counter/voting rights/one room schoolhouse business all occurred pretty well before he was even around.
Further, you are free to be offended by Falwell, Hagee, Robertson or any other yahoo you want. That is neither here nor there, and pretty much everybody today is offended by someone or other, so go right ahead. If you allow them or anyone else to “co-opt your christian faith” as you say they do, it mustn’t have been much of a faith to start with. In any case, I don’t believe that how you feel about these white preachers is at all relevant to the discussion at hand ~ Which is Obamas’ exposure as a racial charlatan and the contortions that people like Bolton and those in the MSM will go to in order to explain or justify Obama and his hate-filled pastor.
See, here is the thing: I am sick and tired of being lectured to about this race business by people like Obama, Wright, Jackson, Farakhan and the other race-baiting pimps who infest our society. And I frankly have had it. I’m done with it. I have stopped listening to this stuff SO ten minutes ago. It simply is not my fault that black men are incarcerated at 7 times the rate of white men. It’s not my fault that black illegitimacy rates and black fatherless households have reached 70%, or that black dropout rates are near 50% in many communities. If there is angst in the black community about these things…well there should be! But people like Wright and Jackson and Obama would have a lot more credibility with me if they would look somewhere other than hard working american citizens to place blame. Somewhere like at themselves maybe, because hard working american citizens have spent upwards of 40 T-trillion dollars in taxes in the past 45 years trying to help, and it is never enough.
Now, Bolton is certainly not a race-baiter. But when he in any way attempts to legitimize or justify the vitriol and virulent hatred of people like Wright, or he defends the slimy, oozy weasel words of Obama when he speaks of Wright, Bolton is NOT going to get a pass from me. It’s that simple. I don’t buy it, and I resent the idea that Bolton or Obama or anyone else is going to take the occasion of Wrights’ exposure as a bigoted hate monger to begin anew lecturing me about race. Don’t work that way. Period. David
Be careful about embedding youtube videos in your posts. Check out the “menu” of “related videos” to Senator McConnell’s embedded video about the state of the state.
http://senatormcconnell.com/state-of-the-state-response.htm
http://whatthecrap.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/youtubes-evil-new-embed-feature/
The below is from the Neal Boortz Blog.
Subject: FW: Emailing: boortz.com Nealz Nuze March 21, 2008.h
MORE FUN AND GAMES WITH THE OBAMAS
[NL]Photo: Phil Ejercito
Well .. the veneer has been penetrated, hasn’t it? So much for the exalted
“trans-racial” election. Looks like its more of the same old same old.
With a few days under out belt, Obama’s sermon from the mount – his speech
on race – was little more than an eloquent rewrite of so many speeches and
rants we’ve heard in the past … look at the speech again and a nuanced
reading will show you that Obama was laying the blame for Jeremiah Wright
squarely at the feet of white people. Wright, in Obama’s eyes, is merely a
response – if a rather harsh one – to the crimes of white America.
So now we see the real Barack Obama. Whatever is wrong with black America
can be traced back to the actions of whites.
Then we have Michelle Obama’s Princeton thesis. The Obama campaign tried to
hide it for a while — but when the media got wind of the fact that access
to the thesis had been shut off by Obama, the ploy was over. The thesis is
95 pages long … and we haven’t gone through it yet … but an initial
glance shows once again that whatever problems faced by black American are
traceable to — you guessed it – whites. Now I’ve read a synopsis which
says that our possible future First Lady wrote that America was founded on
“crime and hatred” and that whites are “ineradicably racist.” I want to see
those words for myself in the thesis .. but they do sound like they could
come from someone who was never proud of her country until her husband saw
success in his race for the presidency. Now I don’t know about you, but I
would not like the idea of a First Lady who says that America was founded on
“crime and hatred.” * We have combed through the entire thesis … twice …
and we are still unable to verify these statements. If you have any insight,
please let the Talkmaster know.
I have a thought about Barrack’s membership in Chicago’s Trinity United
Church of (Hate) Christ. As I understand it, Obama joined this church just
about the time he was ginning up a political career. Perhaps Obama thought
himself too white. Raised in large part by a white couple (his
grandparents), attending prestigious private schools – where my sister was
teaching, by the way – then Harvard, the Harvard law review – and all of
that white stuff. Maybe he felt he needed to shore up his black
credentials – get a little street cred — so off we go to join the dominant
black church. I suspect that Obama was searching for black votes at this
church more than he was searching for God. You can see why someone would
search for votes in an atmosphere of hatred – but God?
It’s been a helluva week … the American people see Barack Obama a bit more
clearly. They now see him as a man who can construct a bizarre moral
equivalence between someone like Geraldine Ferraro and Jeremiah Wright ..
someone who suggests that Obama’s race has been a help in the campaign, and
someone who shouts “God Damn America” from the pulpit and blames white
America for AIDS. In all of this many don’t see a man deserving of the Oval
Office.
roaring through Atlanta last Friday night. Click on the link below the
picture and order a print. Shane is getting married soon … he could use
the cash.
MORE FUN AND GAMES WITH THE OBAMAS
[NL]Photo: Phil Ejercito
Well .. the veneer has been penetrated, hasn’t it? So much for the exalted
“trans-racial” election. Looks like its more of the same old same old.
With a few days under out belt, Obama’s sermon from the mount – his speech
on race – was little more than an eloquent rewrite of so many speeches and
rants we’ve heard in the past … look at the speech again and a nuanced
reading will show you that Obama was laying the blame for Jeremiah Wright
squarely at the feet of white people. Wright, in Obama’s eyes, is merely a
response – if a rather harsh one – to the crimes of white America.
So now we see the real Barack Obama. Whatever is wrong with black America
can be traced back to the actions of whites.
Then we have Michelle Obama’s Princeton thesis. The Obama campaign tried to
hide it for a while — but when the media got wind of the fact that access
to the thesis had been shut off by Obama, the ploy was over. The thesis is
95 pages long … and we haven’t gone through it yet … but an initial
glance shows once again that whatever problems faced by black American are
traceable to — you guessed it – whites. Now I’ve read a synopsis which
says that our possible future First Lady wrote that America was founded on
“crime and hatred” and that whites are “ineradicably racist.” I want to see
those words for myself in the thesis .. but they do sound like they could
come from someone who was never proud of her country until her husband saw
success in his race for the presidency. Now I don’t know about you, but I
would not like the idea of a First Lady who says that America was founded on
“crime and hatred.” * We have combed through the entire thesis … twice …
and we are still unable to verify these statements. If you have any insight,
please let the Talkmaster know.
I have a thought about Barrack’s membership in Chicago’s Trinity United
Church of (Hate) Christ. As I understand it, Obama joined this church just
about the time he was ginning up a political career. Perhaps Obama thought
himself too white. Raised in large part by a white couple (his
grandparents), attending prestigious private schools – where my sister was
teaching, by the way – then Harvard, the Harvard law review – and all of
that white stuff. Maybe he felt he needed to shore up his black
credentials – get a little street cred — so off we go to join the dominant
black church. I suspect that Obama was searching for black votes at this
church more than he was searching for God. You can see why someone would
search for votes in an atmosphere of hatred – but God?
It’s been a helluva week … the American people see Barack Obama a bit more
clearly. They now see him as a man who can construct a bizarre moral
equivalence between someone like Geraldine Ferraro and Jeremiah Wright ..
someone who suggests that Obama’s race has been a help in the campaign, and
someone who shouts “God Damn America” from the pulpit and blames white
America for AIDS. In all of this many don’t see a man deserving of the Oval
Office.
David, I hope that was cathartic.
My grandparents were Mexican. He moved to New Mexico and suffered discrimination. My mother is chicana and grew up in El Paso. She endured discrimination from her classmates. My wife is hispanic. My son has hispanic blood. Some people make anti-hispanic comments around me not knowing of my family background. I am deeply bothered by this.
I had an older African-American USC student who shared that her high school daughter was called the “N” word at a band competition just a couple years ago. I’m sure this mother was terribly upset.
An AMERICAN growing up as a second class citizen probably carries deeply rooted emotions and anger. Your “resentment” about being lectured about race is petty compared to the indignation these people endured. I am saddened to see how some white people feel those growing up in such a demeaning situation should simply set their past aside because it’s “so 10 minutes ago”.
“ruinit” who did Obama “blame”?
I hardly tried to excuse Wright by using the white extremist pastors. I was making the point that the repulsion to Wright’s comments was of a much greater magnitude and vitality than the response to Falwell, Hagee, and Robertson.
I suggest that the willingness, even initiation of the endorsements of these white extremist pastors is far worse than Obama’s involvement with Wright.
Obama came to faith with the help of Wright. He grew into the church. I watched another video in which Wright lead the congregation in getting tested for aids. Obama referred to the social gospel of the church in terms of the activism in the black community.
I’m sure most of us have people in our lives whom we care for or love deeply but with whom we have some serious issue. I have a cousin who committed a felony. I love him and care about him despite this. Jesus was criticized by Pharisees for dining with prostitutes and tax collectors. It’s Christian faith to love the sinner and to hate the sin.
Such “magic ju ju” or “kool-aid” is not politically expedient so perhaps Hillary Clinton would be more to your liking.
Cathartic or not Randy, I am absolutely done with guilt about this. ife is too short and I just don’t have it in me anymore.
Black people simply do not get a pass from me any longer. I don’t wish anyone ill, and it is in my best interest for everyone in this country to do well, but I am 54 years old and this has been going on my whole lifetime. At some point the black community is going to have to start taking some real responsibilty for their problems, rather than pointing at whites like Wright, Obama and Bolton have done. That it can be done is demonstrated by people like Clarence Thomas, Sec of State Rice, Ward Connerly and many others. Even Obama and Bolton are examples of exactly what I’m talking about.
Do you really believe that the reason 70% of black births today are illegitimate is because black people a generation and a half ago grew up as second class citizens? Do you really think that black men today go to prison seven times as often as white men because their grandfathers had segregated bathrooms and water fountains? If you want to continue to apologize for them, go ahead. You aren’t doing them any good whatsoever, you know.
I’m not playing the game any more. As I said, I wish no one ill and it is in my best interests when all people excel and do good. My health records are maintained by people of all ethnicities. My health care is administered by them. I depend upon them to render fire services and police services and sell me the necessities of life. I want all the folk I live around and with to do well. But I am done playing charades about what is wrong with race in this country. If that seems harsh so be it. You row your boat, I’ll paddle mine. David
By the way Randy, if your grandparents were “second class citizens” and suffered discrimination, why has your life not been ruined?
Isn’t that the point you’ve attempted (unsuccessfully) to make about black people? I would have thought that given your oppressed heritage, you’d have been in prison or using drugs or barely surviving as an unemployable high school drop out. None (I assume) of these things happened to you. Did they? How did you avoid those pitfalls when you’ve made the case that discrimination two generations ago accounts for the plight of black people? Why have you made it and they can’t? I would honestly like to hear an answer. David
David, why do you “think that black men today go to prison seven times as often as white men”?
David, my question should be, what’s your explanation for it, not what’s the source of your statistic.
Worth, I also have a question since statistics are being used as a basis to prove racial bias..
What percentage of these blacks are incarcerated for crimes against other blacks?
If we are to use statistics then all variables should be examined. Remember that blacks are just as apt (or possibly more apt) to be the VICTIMS and deserve to see those who commit crimes against them or their loved ones pay for their crime just as much as all other races.
Locally we see a constantly increasing trend where (especially violent) crimes are often black on black. Many involve juveniles that have amassed a long record of criminal behavior before they ever actually commit a crime heinous enough to actually result in being incarcerated. The authorities are damned if they increase their presence in predominately black areas (racial profiling) and damned if they don’t (not looking out for citizens.)
David,
I’m surprised you don’t understand (or won’t acknowledge) the connection between past and present. A child growing up in Gonzales Gardens and a child growing up in Wilde Wood are facing different life experiences which will likely manifest themselves in terms of education and opportunity. Likely is the key because it’s not set in stone, but the relationship is undeniable.
To answer your question, I have a white father and grew up with the expectation of going to college. Contrast this with a former African-American high school student of mine. He literally had to work 30 hours a week to help support his mother and siblings and often feel asleep in class. Going to college was not an established expectation for him. A minimum wage job was all that mattered.
I am already saving for college for my sons (ages 18 and -3 months) – continuing the family pattern (culture) in which I was raised. This was a main point of Obama’s. The family situations are extended into future generations. Certainly this is not an absolute truth, but in general this has certainly proven to be the case.
Again, the institutionalized and lawful segregation existed only 2 generations ago. I asked my African-American high school students about their grandparents recently and they shared that their grandparents are in their 60s. These grandparents grew up disenfranchised. It’s some suspension of disbelief to think there is no effect on subsequent generations.
Take a look at Manning Street, east of downtown, that runs perpendicular to Gervais and Taylor. On the east side are huge, older homes in a white community. On the west side are shacks of a black community. The residents of the east side have constructred a giant wall. This wall symbolizes much of the current debate.
Randy, Worth. I have a lot to say. I obviously have said a lot already. Probably too much.
It’s OK. We can agree to disagree. I don’t wish anyone any ill. My beliefs about all this aren’t going to change your minds so I won’t go any farther, except to say that what I believe will manifest itself in my life the way it always has: I will continue to live the best life I can and get along with people as well as I can.
I don’t think I’ll be so quick in the future to write my thoughts on this blog when I hear someone attempting to legitimize or excuse hatred. I don’t think we ultimately make any progress unless we get fearlessly determined to be truthful with ourselves, but people who have decided that the Obamas and Boltons are right in doing what they do won’t be persuaded otherwise by me. I’m going to have to be OK with that. But in my heart, these people do not get a pass.
David
And, as I said, I am done with the guilt thing. David
By the way, I do hold opinions about the connections between past and present that differ pretty significantly from yours Randy. I don’t think you’re necessarily correct about that. Maybe I can settle down and give my opinions about it in a non-inflammatory way here in a little bit. I have enjoyed conversing with you, you’ve been less strident than I. David
David, I don’t think you want to answer my question in a public forum. That’s probably wise.
If I’m looking to convince anyone of anything, it’s only to convince people to thoroughly examine the bases of their opinions. Yours may be sound, but you can probably see how some might suspect your opinion is informed by racism.
Worth, because the challenge has been made, I will answer publicly anon. David
David,
I think debate in of itself is useful regardless if others are convinced. I find that I fine tune my thinking and my expression by engaging others. Before CNN or Fox tried to shape the debate, ideas were formed in pubs, coffee houses, or local diners.
The resentment you shared is exactly what Obama cited in his speech. What I liked is his frankness in putting out to the public what many of us think and sometimes share on blogs like this one.
My position is not quotas but a need to help others help themselves. I see education as the catalyst for this. Aggressively address the achievement gap, not by lowering standards but by raising performance, and many of the problems can be prevented. That is my belief.
Worth, I’m perfectly willing to answer you publicly in this forum. Nothing I could say at this point will make me look any worse in the eyes of many. I have said some things rather bluntly, but these things do not make me a racist as you have obliquely implied. So, you’ve asked why I think black men in 2008 are incarcerated 7 to 1 over white men. Here is what I think:
I’m not sure.
But I do believe I know a large part of the reason that this outcome was not just possible but probable, and it stems primarily from the destruction of the black family and social structures. Well then, what led to THAT? First I want to say that I believe Randys’ premise is NOT true. He apparently thinks that the failure and ruination we see in the black community in 2008 is due to the slavery and oppression black folk suffered in the 200 years ending in approximately 1958. While I do agree that there is a connection (I’ll get to this in a minute), I don’t believe it’s the primary cause. It can’t be…the facts as I understand them simply don’t support it. If one just goes back to the 1940s and 50s, which would have been the two decades at the bitter end of all the oppression Randy says is to blame, we don’t see ANY of the wholesale disintegration of the black family and social structure that we see now. Black families were largely intact, with devoted fathers and mothers who worked hard in the face of adversity. Yes Jim Crow was horrible and unjust. Yes this country was wrong to allow this abomination to continue as long as it did. But doesn’t it make sense that if this oppression and unfairness were going to destroy the black family, that it would have done so by 1958 (or 68? or 78?), and not lingered and strolled along doing it for another fifty years until today? I just don’t buy it.
But I believe there are other factors that have been in play since the 1960s that much better explain what we see today than does Randys’ idea. Within the context of the success of the civil rights movement of the fifties and sixties, I think two other titanic shifts in american society came into play which ultimately ended in the fairly quick and increasingly pervasive destruction of the majority of black families.
The first of these shifts, with Madalyn Murray-O’Hare as the movements’ figurehead, was the near total rebellion against and abandonment of God. And not just rebellion and abandonment, but the specific, systematic and aggressive banishment of God from clan, culture and classroom.
The second titanic shift was that, after forsaking our faith in God, we placed it in man. Recognizing that after all we’d done to them black folk needed help to capitalize on their newly won freedoms, and not looking to God but men, we designed and erected huge welfare programs under the leadership of liberals like LBJ and others (conservatives too). These programs actually did nothing but dis-incentivize fatherhood, hard work and families. They created a dependent underclass that looked to government for support, rather than instilling independence and pride. Instead of helping black people, these liberal programs have destroyed them, and wasted trillions of dollars in the process.
So, to sum up: Right at the point at which black folk stood upon the threshold of a new day, and needed guidance and direction and yes, some help, we forsook the Source of real help and turned our eyes to men. I think that here is the connection to the past that Randy chases after: Right at the end of black oppression, when black men needed us the most to help them step out into a new life, we let them down with liberal foolishness that has proven to be their ruin.
So.
What do we do about it now? Do we encourage, legitimize or excuse the virulent and evil spewers of hatred like Jeremiah Wright? Or do we begin acknowledging truth and calling things by their right names? I don’t believe any progress can ultimately be made improving the status and welfare of black folks in this society unless we get fearless and determined about being honest with ourselves. As for me, I have tried to make a start. David
By the way Worth, the way you worded your last post made it sound like you thought my answer to the question of disparate incarceration rates between blacks and whites would be some sort of overt denial that racism exists.
Look, I don’t deny that racism exists today. Surely it does, but do you think that racism alone can account for the total picture we see today? I don’t. Again, blaming black incarceration rates, dropout rates, illegitimacy rates and joblessness all on the ugly white man is attractive. It is shallow thinking. It fits and agrees with the the world view of many and for many others like Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan and Jeremiah “GD” Wright it has provided quite an income and lifestyle in the absence of any other talents. But I believe that this easy way out is TOO easy, and doesn’t ultimately move the ball towards the goal line to make things better by getting at the real reasons for failure. The big book in AA talks about the need for a “fearless and searching moral inventory.”
There are the answers: Fearlessness. Honestly searching. Willing to go wherever the facts take us to get the truth and formulate good plans to fix it. No matter whose sensibilities get ruffled or whose ox is gored. David
According to David, African-Americans entered the dawning of a new era in 1965 when they were assured the right to vote or in 1968 when discrimination in renting or selling homes was outlawed. Some flick of the light switch suddenly enfranchised the whole race. If it hadn’t been for LBJ and other paternalistic liberals subjugating the race or if blacks hadn’t turned their back on God, they would be economically and socially equal today.
Answer this question David, are you suggesting that an African-American student living in Gonzales Gardens would have an equal opportunity at success as a white student living in Wilde Wood if he has a working father who is godly?
Would you also suggest that this aforementioned situation is only minimally associated with the cultural circumstances a mere generation prior? Again, I’ve established that this father’s father would have been lawfully restricted to a separate but “equal” education and job. Your rationale is that this condition has had minimal effect and you condemn Obama for suggesting otherwise.
A lot of blacks had made it financially before 1964, even before 1924. A lot made it after 1964, for the same reason – they worked hard, got an education, and stepped away from the victim mentality promoted by race hustlers like Al Sharpton, Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama.
The $6 TRILLION spent on helping blacks was mostly wasted on the rest of them, because just moved onto the Welfare Plantation.
I’m not suggesting anything Randy. I’ve said what I believe pretty much happened, and I think my accounting does a better job of explaining where we’re at than yours does by a wide stretch. I’m not saying my accounting covers every anecdote you may or may not know about.
Listen, take it or leave it. If you are going to be all simplistic and act like I don’t understand that my accounting isn’t perfect, go ahead and believe your own foolishness. Whatever.
For instance, I completely understand that I made it sound like my version of events happened precipitously, and I know I painted a paternalistic and condescending picture of LBJ that is really sort of insulting to black people. As I said, pick my version apart if you wish. I still believe it more accurately portrays reality than does your version.
I primarily presented my beliefs to show Worth that A) in spite of my brutal honesty and refusal to “pussy foot” around any longer, I am not a gigantic racist and B) I really have thought about this ~ I’m not just a mile wide and an inch deep. I did not do it to convince you of anything, and I really don’t care wherther you buy it or not. You are free to be wrong if you want.
In any case, we are where we are in 2008, whether my version, yours, or something else altogether happened to put black people where they are right now. And my original position holds: It is time to start fearlessly getting to the truth. If that means feelings have to be hurt when people attempt to defend the indefensible or explain away the inexplicable as Bolton did, then I will do it. Arguing about how we got here is silly. I cast my pearls before swine with predictable results, but I’m not going to get pulled away from the original thing this string was about. David
Lee, I absolutely and completely agree. I believe you’ve put your finger on precisely what is wrong with the line of reasoning Randy espouses. If what happened in 1840, 1860 and 1920 are still the reasons many black folk cannot make it today, then I don’t see where there is any hope for them. At what point do we stop hiding behind ancient history?
Randy says I either can’t see or won’t admit that the deleterious effects of being second class citizens meant than many black folk never got the chance to achieve and excel in the post Jim Crow era. How silly. Of course I get that.
You say black people who did excel worked hard, got an education and stepped away from the victim mentality. Exactly so. Randys’ version of history pets people on the back for being victims and sort of rationalizes their staying so now. My version of events acknowledges that we did make victims of many, and that we need to recognize that now, call it what it is with brutal honesty, and begin immediately to do whatever is necessary to right the ship. One of the first steps is to shout down Wright, anyone else who spews his hatred and anyone who attempts to legitimize it. David
One outstanding thing to witness has been the nearly total rejection and repudiation of Wright by the american people, black and white alike.
Spectacularly unqualified, deer-in-the-headlights Obama has been forced to swallow hard and repudiate his pastor. Of course he has…he realized very quickly that only a tiny fraction of people in the United States agree with he and his church, and that he stood no chance to be president unless he ran away from positions he evidently and assuredly agreed with just a month ago.
This is exactly the telling part of this whole episode: Obama would have done nothing to renounce his pastor or church had he not been forced to do so. And he certainly would never have made the race speech last Monday had he not realized it was necessary to keep his hope alive.
So much for Brads’ “it’s all about the character” thing, huh? David
David, after decades as the pastor of this church, how was Wright able to maintain such a large congregation if there was near universal repudiation of this man by the African-American community?
You don’t address the question I’ve posed twice. Does a black student living in Gonzales Gardens, with a father who works and is godly, have the same chances of success as a white student living in Wilde Wood?
I suspect you avoid answering because this real life situation undermines your position. By acknowledging that there is a difference, you acknowledge that the socio-economic environment would likely tip the next domino in the succeeding generation.
Lee, feel free to answer address this scenario as well. I acknowledge the obvious, that there have been success in the black community, even in the midst of Jim Crow. Your line of reasoning that small proportion of successes is evidence that the past is not a cause of successive problems is weak. Using your rationale; if I drive drunk and make it home, then I can claim drinking doesn’t impair successful driving. Again, feel free to address the GG-WW scenario specifically.
No two people have the same chance in life, for a variety of reasons. Adults recognize that, and that it is largely irrelevant. The only inequities which should concern us are the artificial ones created by those holding political power – whether it is to declare some men slaves and others their owners, or some men taxpayers and others their regulators.
Any efforts to “level the playing field” are a hoax, usually as a vote-buying tactic of populist demagogues who want to sell a loser mentality which will remain dependent on favors from the ruling elite.
Why does the racist Jeremiah Wright have a full church for his hate sermons? Barack Obama answers that himself, when he says that every black person has grown up with the conspiracy theories and hate for “blue-eyed devils”. The problem is not being exposed to that swill, but buying it or, in the case of Wright and Obama, selling it.
Damn it Randy, I’m not avoiding anything. I think your question is first silly and second demonstrates that YOU completely miss the point I have clumsily attempted to make.
You desparately want me to say yes to your stupid and small-minded question because you believe that answer eviscerates my arguement. It most assuredly does not, but here is your answer nonetheless:
Yes, in a world where human beings use logic and good judgement to assess circumstances and opportunities and then decide rationally to make the best use of those opportunities and circumstances, a kid on Knob Hill has a better chance to do well than a kid in the ghetto. You happy now?
My what a simplistic and unsatisfactory little worldview you have.
See, I maintain that for many kids and/or adults that idealistic world doesn’t exist. Many kids on Knob Hill live dissolute lives, and piss away opportunity and make themselves into failures in spite of their opportunities. Many kids from the ghetto step up, get their education, persevere and become resounding successes. You like the idea that life isn’t fair because you hide behind that to avoid admitting that there are professional victims and there are overcomers. I maintain that what is in a person has MUCH more to do with his success than what is around him.
I’m tired of this. I’ve tried to make my point and you have assiduously avoided getting it. I give up ~ Believe whatever you want. I quit.
Bolton and other apologists for hateful black bigotry still don’t get a pass. Evil is wrong and those who excuse it have to be called on it. Slavey or no slavery. Fairness or no fairness. Gonzales Gardens or no Gonzales Gardens. Evil must be confronted and shouted down every time it is met. David