We’re having a lot of trouble communicating here. I knew that we would when I started this, but I’m a glutton for punishment. I continue to believe, in spite of years of frustration, that it is possible to reason with people. But that assumes a common language, common terms, and at least the rudiments of agreement upon basic reality.
It’s hard to get much done in a round table discussion if the participants don’t agree that the thing between them is a table, or that it is round. (This is worse than the Paris Peace Talks. If I remember correctly, the argument there was over the shape that the table should be, not whether there were such a thing as a table, or whether it was really a chair, or…)
The problem is dramatized by Doug, who inspired the thread to start with (you’ll have to scroll down after you follow the link):
Your fawning over our system of government is remarkable. You admire
politicians like some people admire athletes or actors… ascribing all
sorts of heroic attributes to a group of people who are mainly
interested in power and personal gain. You act as if these people are
altruistic financial wizards working solely for the will of the people.
Fat chance. I have to ask — what color is the sky in your world????
OK, let’s address that paragraph. "Fawning over our system of government." Yes, I believe in the system of representative democracy embraced by the Founders, and institutionalized in the Constitution. I have a lot of problems with the system we have in South Carolina, which was built to be inefficient, extremely resistant to change, unaccountable to the people, and protective of the status quo for the benefit of an established aristocracy (thanks again, John Locke). But the American system? I will not reject "fawning," with all its contemptuous connotations, because almost any word that suggests admiration, respect, even reverence will do. As for contempt — well, I confess that I harbor contempt for those who regard the American system of government in contempt. That would apply to the "Blame America" set on the left, and the "despise government" folk who tend these days to congregate with the right. But I am trying to hold my contempt in check for the sake of a civil, good-faith discussion. That’s a little hard to do when an interlocutor boasts of humiliating his parents by showing them that he and his employer were funding most of their Social Security payments. I’m a much more conservative, "honor thy father and thy mother" kind of guy. So let’s move on.
"You admire politicians…?" Let me try really hard to give that statement some credence, and say that I suppose it depends on the politician. There aren’t many I would say I "admire, in the sense that most people would use the word. John McCain is one. Joe Lieberman is another. My admiration for Lindsay Graham has been growing steadily. I have long admired Joe Riley and Tony Blair. When I look at the entire category — well, I would be hard-pressed to say that I admire our governor specifically, or the governor before him, or the one before him… I don’t think anyone who reads what I write would say that, either. As for most of the Legislature — well, as a body, they are hardly worthy of praise. I’d say "disgust" is a more frequently felt sentiment than admiration. But if you’re speaking in generic terms, do I consider public service (whether elective or appointive, a momentary thing or "career") a higher calling than those of, say, "athletes and actors?" Of course. I’m sure many athletes and actors also do admirable things, but there is nothing inherently admirable in being able to run fast or look good on camera (and I realize Doug wasn’t saying I should admire actors and athletes, but since that’s the comparison he made, I’m exploring that). There is something admirable in wanting to serve others, whether by working in government service — military or civilian (yes, even "bureaucrats") — or running for office to represent one’s fellow citizens in our republican system. Just stepping out to offer your services, you know that millions will immediately sneer at you for being a "politician," and that’s just the beginning. Your opponents will slander you, insult you, lie about you, do anything they can short of sticks and stones to hurt you. I suppose in some people, the willingness to put up with that is pathological. In others, it is indeed admirable.
"ascribing all sorts of heroic attributes…" when did I do that? Just now was the closest I’ve come to that, and I only did so because I was reaching as far as I could to meet you in this discussion — going as far out on the "admiration" limb as I could scoot. But heroic? When did I, in this discussion and before Doug said that, speak of anything heroic?
Once again, we’re getting into the realm of impulse — of powerful feelings. The contempt that Doug holds for those in public service is quite palpable, and seems akin to his resentment of his labor going to the benefit of others — except, of course, under circumstances and conditions that he entirely controls. It’s another thing that puzzles me. Where does that come from? Did a city councilman or a policeman beat him up when he was young? There is often, in libertarian rhetoric, something that sounds a good bit like fear, or a sense of one’s own smallness or vulnerability in the face of something of overweening power. I don’t recall having felt that way in my time in this country. I can see how a Saudi might feel that way, but not an American.
Don’t you think "people who are mainly
interested in power and personal gain" would be wiser to stay in the private sector? When it comes to power, what politician in this country will ever have the monarchical power of a CEO — even one with an outspoken board? Look at what politicians actually encounter when they try to accomplish something — unrelenting opposition, usually to the point of completely frustrating the intended action. To be able to make a decision and have it stick at your own company — that’s power. "Personal gain?" Oh, come on. Government service is definitely the wrong place.
"Altruistic financial wizards?" When did I ever suggest such a thing? Do you ever read what we write about the Legislature’s budgetary priorities and decisions? That’s so far from easily verifiable reality, I don’t know why you would level such a charge.
This is discouraging — this cognitive disconnect over our respective statements. I’m not even getting off on any of the comments I’ve read from others in this discussion that indicate that they perceive reality in ways that seem very, very strange to me — such as John saying that someone else’s hyperbolic description of creating a permanent underclass is "EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE TODAY," or Weldon "breaking" it to me that the government doesn’t own the property (what I said was that NO ONE owns property without a system of laws that set out, support and maintain the purely theoretical concept of property rights; this is a very difficult concept for libertarians to grasp, so I can hardly blame him I guess), or Eric’s very overwrought cry of "Should one not vote for or choose a collectivism justified by majority
rule they are still forced to comply with the charity of the state via
gunpoint," (oh, lighten up; why do you people feel so extremely and dramatically put upon when you lose a political argument? That’s life.), or Lee’s "definition" of "communitarianism." (You see why I hesitate to use the term? It’s sufficiently esoteric that he felt free to just make up his own definition to advance his argument. He managed to use "communistic," but I guess he couldn’t figure away to work any other epithets in. One thing I won’t let him get away with, though, is "feelings without any attempt at intellectual justification." I’m not much of a feelings guy, and communitarianism is so over-intellectualized that it never seems to make it into popular conversation.)
What am I supposed to do to facilitate a constructive discussion here? How can I do so, when even my most carefully explained thoughts come back to me in such a bizarrely distorted form? How do we settle on the fact that there is or is not a table before us, so that we can reach more substantive agreements?
To recap my view: "Government" is neither God nor the Devil. In this country, it is just a set of arrangements that a free people came up with for carrying out their common affairs. I believe that most people who are past adolescence should understand that the world is not about them and their almighty, individual will. They must somehow live their lives with some accommodation for the fact that they will live in a community of some kind, and that community will order things in ways that will often differ from the individual’s preferences. In applying that set of arrangements, government (in our system) is no more or less coercive than we, as a community, decide that it will be. If we want to enforce speed limits, we will (in South Carolina, we have decided not to). If we want to let people get away with tax evasion, we will. Plenty of people do. I suppose tax evaders are neither as respectful of government as I am, nor as afraid of it as some of my interlocutors here seem to be.
Anyway, back to the discussion: What is the root of this passionate, angry rejection of having obligations placed on one by the community at large?